Is Calvinism the truth?

AndrewMorgan · Sep 1, 2022

My opinion is as you stated.
Interestingly, apparently the word "sovereign" does not appear at all in the KJV. This was pointed out by Steven Anderson in an anti-Calvinists sermon. Although I'm far from a fan of his, I think this is important point.
Calvinists tend to use this word to imply EVERY activity of God - His thoughts, actions, etc. - is a part of His purpose. This means, they claim, He is dissimilar to an earthly king, who, while being in overall control of his empire, does not micro-manage every infinitesimal thought, word and deed of man. In contrast, God fore-ordains EVERYTHING - including man's every thought. I think this is an inescapable conclusion after seeing many of James White (and the like) 's debates.
Instinctively, this seems bizarre to me, as it seems to me, erring men would be going along with God's will.
I realise there is a potential danger in putting oneself in touch with others' material, but I also think there's a potential danger in doing the opposite - eschewing material one doesn't want to hear. It seems to me the appropriate thing is to carefully examine the evidence.
I have a feeling that although this, or issues in general, may seem "cut and dried", there is the possibility that I've missed something. At James White himself states, "The man who says he has no traditions is a slave to his traditions.

arthurfleminger · Sep 1, 2022

kaylagrl said:

Like Calvin and Henry VIII, Charles Manson another mass murderer, tried to set up his own psuedo religion. I wouldn't have anything to do with any of these three. You can tell a tree by it's fruits and none of these exhibited Christian love. So how could they have given us theologies from God. Were they led by the Holy Spirit? No Way!!!!!!! Much more likely they were inspired by Satan.

Magenta · Sep 1, 2022

AndrewMorgan said:

My opinion is as you stated.
Interestingly, apparently the word "sovereign" does not appear at all in the KJV. This was pointed out by Steven Anderson in an anti-Calvinists sermon. Although I'm far from a fan of his, I think this is important point.
Calvinists tend to use this word to imply EVERY activity of God - His thoughts, actions, etc. - is a part of His purpose. This means, they claim, He is dissimilar to an earthly king, who, while being in overall control of his empire, does not micro-manage every infinitesimal thought, word and deed of man. In contrast, God fore-ordains EVERYTHING - including man's every thought. I think this is an inescapable conclusion after seeing many of James White (and the like) 's debates.
Instinctively, this seems bizarre to me, as it seems to me, erring men would be going along with God's will.
I realise there is a potential danger in putting oneself in touch with others' material, but I also think there's a potential danger in doing the opposite - eschewing material one doesn't want to hear. It seems to me the appropriate thing is to carefully examine the evidence.
I have a feeling that although this, or issues in general, may seem "cut and dried", there is the possibility that I've missed something. At James White himself states, "The man who says he has no traditions is a slave to his traditions.

Calvinism makes people puppets

Ascribing to God the evil men get up to is in itself evil.

arthurfleminger · Sep 1, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

Someone once asked what was the philosophy of Nazi Germany's 'National Socialist Party'? The correct answer was that it meant whatever Hitler wanted it to mean. If you didn't agree with Hitler, you were murdered.

Same thing with Calvinism and John Calvin. John Calvin determined his truth of the Christian theology. And if one didn't agree with his theology, Calvin believed they should be murdered and he was responsible for the murder of many. Not Christian at all.

And yet there are still Nazis and Calvinists in the world today. Go figure!!!!!!!!!!

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 1, 2022

Evmur said:

Did you submit to God?

Why did Jesus give us the example of not my will be done but your will be done?

Isn't that Free Will to submit your will for someone else's?

phil36 · Sep 1, 2022

kaylagrl said:

Yes that is correct regarding David. He sinned. We all sin.. Even Christians and repent/ confess - Wouldn't you agree?

Regarding your view on Calvinism, just making an opinionated statement doesn't make the opinionated statement true.

I could say the whole theological system of dispensationalism is not Biblical. Does me just making a claim make the statement true?

I could say that the palagian and semi palagian views on human autonomous free will is biblically not true.... Do you get the point 🤔. Infact we know Palagianism is not true as its heresy.

So what is it you think reformed Theology has wrong biblically?

God's sovereignty?

Vicarious atonement?

Faith by grace alone in Christ alone?

Scripture as the final authority on matters relating to faith.?

And the list goes on and on..

FreeGrace2 · Sep 1, 2022

AndrewMorgan said:

The basic tenets of Calvinism are found in TULIP.

T = total depravity. It is true that man cannot save himself. Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned nor deserved. However, Calvinists go too far when they also claim that unregenerate man cannot believe the gospel until God regenerates him. There are no such verses to support that. In fact, Eph 2:5 equates salvation and being born again (regeneration) and v.8 plainly says that we are saved (and regenerated) by grace through faith. So the faith has to occur first, which is opposite of Calvinist claims.

U = unconditonal election. Calvinists claim that God elects (chooses) people for salvation, but there are no verses that say that. In fact, in every verse where the purpose of election is noted, it is always to service. Here are the examples of who is described as being "elect"

1. Jesus Christ. Chosen to be the suffering Servant and Savior of mankind. Jesus succeeded.
Matt 12:18 - “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give His life a ransom for many (the masses).
1 Pet 2:6 - For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”
Isa 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

2. people of Israel. Chosen to serve God, preserve God's written Word, and evangelize the world.
Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."
Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
Luke 11:54 “He has helped his servant Israel, remembering to be merciful”
Isa 41:9 - I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, ‘You are my servant’; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.
Isa 43:10 - “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

3. angels.
1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

4. NT believers.
Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him… v.19 defines “us” as “those who believe”.
1 Pet 2:9 - But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nations people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light.
1 Cor 1:27-28 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

5. Jesus' apostles.
John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” {Judas was chosen to betray the Lord}
John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you , and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

6. Paul.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
1 Tim 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

more to follow:

FreeGrace2 · Sep 1, 2022

L = limited atonement. Jesus died only for the "elect". iow, He died for the sins only of those who believe in Him
Mark 16:15: preach the Gospel to every creature. If Calvin was right, this makes no sense.
John 6:40 For this is the will of the Father, that everyone (pas) who beholds and believes on the Son may have eternal life.
John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
John 3:16, 17 For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) …not to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
John 4:42 This One is indeed the Savior of the world.
John 17:21 that they may all be one, even as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be in Us: that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.
John 20:31 but these have been written (in order) that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His Name. (goal of John’s Gospel)
Acts 17:27 God did this (created mankind) so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. (see also Heb 11:6 regarding mankind having the ability to look for God, in contrast to point 1 of Calvinism)
Rom 5:6 In due time, when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly (that’s every human), not just the “elect” per point 3 of Calvinism. Consider Rom 3:23 ‘for ALL have sinned, and come short’
Rom 11:32 For God has bound all (pas) men over to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all (pas). Cf: Rom 3:23, 6:23, Rom 5:6,8 All humans are sinful and Christ died for all of them.
2 Cor 5:14,15 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And He died for all (pas), that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again.
2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone (pas).
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all (pas) men.
1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst. See Rom 3:23, 6:23 salvation is potential for all humanity!
*** 1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all (pas) men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (Christ-Jn 14:6, Jn 8:32, 12:32) Note the potential: Christ wants all men to be saved. The concept of limited atonement just doesn’t fly in light of this verse.
1 Tim 2:6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all (pas) men, the testimony given in its proper time.
*** 1 Tim 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all (pas) men, and especially (malista) of those who believe.
Malista: chiefly, most of all, specially
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, (has not predetermined that) but everyone (pas) to come to repentance.
*** 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole (holos) world. Holos: all, all together, every whit, throughout, whole
***1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 Cor 7:23: You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. [believers]
2 Pet 2:1: But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. [unbelievers]
The Greek word for “bought” is the same in both verses, ‘agorazo’

I = irresistible grace. iow, man cannot resist God's grace.
Acts 7:51 - “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
Acts 14:2 - But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.
Rev 2:21 - I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. (refused to repent)
Ref 16:9 - They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
Rev 16:11 - and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

P = perseverance or preservation. If a Calvinist means preservation, that is eternal security and he/she is correct. But if a Calvinist means perseverance, he/she is incorrect.

Jesus gave a parable about soils. Consider Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

They believed for a while, but then 'fell away' from their faith. Doesn't say fell away from their salvation.

Questions accepted.

John146 · Sep 1, 2022

phil36 said:

Yes that is correct regarding David. He sinned. We all sin.. Even Christians and repent/ confess - Wouldn't you agree?

Regarding your view on Calvinism, just making an opinionated statement doesn't make the opinionated statement true.

I could say the whole theological system of dispensationalism is not Biblical. Does me just making a claim make the statement true?

I could say that the palagian and semi palagian views on human autonomous free will is biblically not true.... Do you get the point 🤔. Infact we know Palagianism is not true as its heresy.

So what is it you think reformed Theology has wrong biblically?

God's sovereignty?

Vicarious atonement?

Faith by grace alone in Christ alone?

Scripture as the final authority on matters relating to faith.?

And the list goes on and on..

Reformed people like to throw around that phrase, "God's sovereignty." Since it's not found in the bible, what do they really mean? God ordains all that comes to pass?

Magenta · Sep 1, 2022

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Jesus spoke of self will and God's will.

phil36 · Sep 1, 2022

John146 said:

So are you saying God is not sovereign 🤔

Evmur · Sep 1, 2022

The_Watchers_2017 said:

When Jesus appeared on the beach after He was risen, the disciples had fished all night and caught nothing so He told them to try again and they caught a draught of fish. All the while the resurrected Lord of heaven and earth was making breakfast for them.

"Come [quoth He] bring some of the fish which you have caught"

YOU have caught

That's how kind and gracious God is, He did it by a miracle but He gave the credit to them.

God CONQUERS our will, He subdues it.

Paul was mad like some fanatics we see today riding on his way to get the christians to drag them off to be punished or killed. But God knocked him off that freewill nag and pinned him blind to the ground ... sure Paul had freewill, he coulda said no.

Jonah said no.

John146 · Sep 1, 2022

phil36 said:

Depends on how you're defining sovereign. Does God have authority over all things? Yes.

Evmur · Sep 1, 2022

AndrewMorgan said:

First, to clarify - When I say "Calvinism", I mean the likes of modern-day Calvinism, such as James White and the like, not Calvin himself. I'm not sure what HIS position was, but I think modern proponents of Calvinism have "gone further" than what he originally proposed. After listening to many debates with James White and the like, I can't believe these people don't believe that everything is God's will, even the thoughts, desires and actions of man.
I don't know if you've got evidence that I'm wrong - and I'm happy to read any such material if you'd care to send me or direct me to any.

can't help you there, I haven't listened to them ... R.C. Sproules is probably the guy you should be listening to.

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 1, 2022

Evmur said:

when Jesus told them to try again, they could have said no. but they said yes. Jesus did not make them say yes. they submitted. until you submit, the act of Free Will, God's Will cannot be done.

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 1, 2022

Adstar said:

Calvinists love the 16th Century Version which even Eusebius noted [[did not match the true original Greek]] because they can TWIST the term ((us-ward)).

but when you go back to the 4th Century Greek, they have no leg to stand on.

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some consider slowness. Rather, He is being patient toward you—not wanting anyone to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

it's why i always present the more Authentic Version in many discussions because there's the TRUTH and then there is MISTRANSLATION!

Magenta · Sep 1, 2022

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Jesus told them to cast their net off the right side of the boat.

Apparently they had been fishing from the wrong side of the boat

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 1, 2022

John146 said:

how a person is, their true self, is many times how they create the Image of God.

those who have no mercy will reflect a God with little Mercy!

there's 2 types of Christian:
1. those who Witness trying to bring more to the Kingdom
2. those who think some people were created for Glory and the rest for Hell

when you talk to any Believer, you can see who their version of God is by whether they Witness or not!

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 1, 2022

Magenta said:

i thought that myself hahahaha

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 1, 2022

Luke 5:
4 When He had finished speaking, He said to Simon, “Go out into the deep water, and let down your nets for a catch.”

5 Simon replied, “Master, we’ve worked hard all night and caught nothing. But at Your word I will let down the nets.”

Peter did not want to really obey. then he chose to. Free Will is all over this text of Scripture.

Is Calvinism the truth?

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