And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Perish not always mean cease to exist

destroy not always mean cease to exist

quote
As verbs the difference between damage and destroy
is that damage is to impair the soundness, goodness, or value of; to harm or cause destruction while destroy is
to damage beyond use or repair

end quote

cease to exist is only one of the meaning of the word perish, some word have more than one meanings depend on the context

if you consider the word perish in Matt 25 context, mean total damage, don not function as original purpose, but not cease to exist

the original purpose of God to make human is to glorify His name

the goat or unbeliever are not glorify Him anymore, beyond repaired, can not be fixed anymore so the Lord send them into eternal punishment, not cease to exist
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
FreeGrace2 said:
I've NEVER argued about "perish" and "destroy". Of course the resurrected but mortal bodies of all unbelievers will surely perish and be destroyed when they are cast into the LOF. Without a doubt.
Do I have this correct?
CAN DOES NOT mean WILL for BOTH body and soul

I never said that. The only issue here is about the immaterial soul. Yes, the Bible says that God is able (can) destroy the soul. So what? Where does the Bible say that God WILL destroy souls? Nowhere is where.


NOT mean WILL for the SOUL.

Here's the reality: the word "can" NEVER" means "will". Ever.


What dictionary are you reading out of, since you think that "can" or "able to" means "will"?

but CAN DOES mean WILL for the BODY.
I"m not talking about the body. And it's obvious from all the "perish" and "destroy" verses that the mortal yet resurrected bodies will be destroyed.

Matthew 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what?

You CANNOT prove that the word "is able to" EVER means "will". That is one of your huge problems.

You keep flinging that verse around as if it MEANS that God WILL destroy souls. Get a real dictionary and learn something.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
I went to the new users page and asked the question. I'll let you know as soon as they answer. I sure hope you are right. I know if they do, and I would have known, I would have a long time ago.
Yeah, it's getting tougher and tougher to defend your theories in the face of biblical truth.

When people realize that they can't answer the questions that will reveal their errors, and they can't refute their opponents, they choose to bow out of the discussion.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Can or able does not suggest a negative. It suggests the affirmative which is that God can destroy both soul and body in hell because He is able to do anything.
I'm sure that everyone agrees that omnipotent God is able to destroy souls. So what? Why do you guys keep insisting that "is able to" MEANS "will"? You have no justification for your fantasy.

This fact meshes with scripture which says the unsaved perish, or are destroyed, or are put to death.
Since the Bible teaches that all the unsaved WILL be physically resurrected, but NOT in immortal bodies, it is that body that will perish or be destroyed. And you aren't willing to admit that.

It never even once says all of the unsaved go to eternal torment.
You are just unable to connect the obvious dots.

That's why context is key.
It sure does. In Rev 20:10 we have the beast, FP and Satan being "tormented day and night for ever and ever". You know you have to argue that the phrase cannot mean "eternal" even though everyone knows that is exatly what it means.

But go ahead and keep deceiving yourselves.

God can/or is able to destroy soul and body because that's the alternative to eternal life.
No where in the Bible will you find these words. You are just very presumptive.

The opposite of eternal life is death.
Wrong again. The opposite of eternal life is "torrmented day and night for ever and ever". And that is biblical.

The body, soul, and spirit live forever in the resurrection. Glory to God.
Sure. No one disagrees with that.

But you guys cannot defend your claim that ONLY the beast and FP and all the fallen angels will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever" in Rev 20:10. And the 2 humans have been in the LOF for 1,000 yrs when Satan joins them and John writes about the torment of ALL of them.

Then, immediately following is the GWT judgment and the casting of all the rest of the unbelievers into the SAME torment, which will be day and night for ever and ever.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
I also might add, this is evident when scripture is quoted and then people reject it and change the plain meaning of it. For example: Death isn't death, destroy isn't destroy, perish isn't perish, eternal conscious torment (ECT) for everyone not saved, etc.
This is being VERY dishonest. No one says any of these nutty claims.

Death DOES MEAN death, but applies only to the body. Ditto for destroy and perish. As for ECT, Rev 20:10 directly teaches it.
 
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
218
63
It's at the moderators discretion because they have the final say on all things on this website. Everyone is free to report whatever they feel/think they need to. From my perspective, heresy is not the same thing as poor Bible interpretation because there's innocence or ignorance involved. Of course, God has the final say on everything. More scripture quoted the better, but the more scripture you quote the more arguments that will arise. That's how we got to where we are. There are people who will argue with scripture; this is spiritual warfare.
Is it spiritual warfare or SCRIPT-ual? Is it under the influence of pride or is it evil? Is it because of ignorance or is it intentional? Has God blinded them or are they simply batting for the other side?


When I see someone who can't control the lust of the flesh, I remind myself they MUST BE BABES in the word. They have yet to feast on the meat. If they had then they would be able to control the flesh and converse in a manner that would make the Lord say 'WELL DONE good and faithful servant'.

Instead we have the MODERN day 'Jew' Christian who knows all the words but is not much different than

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Romans 2:18 And knowest HIS WILL and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

Romans 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

Romans 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast THE FORM OF KNOWLEDGE and of the truth in the law.

Romans 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

Romans 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

AKA thou knows how we are told to speak and treat one another and even when reminded, thou CHOOSES not to, but instead pushes harder believing they have gotten a hold of someones soft spot and need to go in for the kill.

That is why I put forth the SCRIPTURES as a reminder of WHO we are representing AS HAS BEEN DONE FOR ME. The 'flesh' gets a hold of all of us but when I HAVE been reminded, I have THANKED them and strove to get back on the narrow path, crucify that flesh and get back to the WORK at hand. I have also been thanked for the reminder, and the conversations have come way back down to the 'Christian' way and stayed there and even though still disputing and no agreement in sight, RESPECT has been restored and CHRISTIANS everywhere are looked at better.

The Jews under the law failed just as the 'foolish nation' as the 'church' is failing. NO ONE wants to do it GODS way and it shows. It starts out impossible but THE LOVE OF GOD wins out and the eyes are opened and WHAT IS WRITTEN becomes the only point. I work on it EVERYDAY and probably fail everyday but I NEVER stop trying, I never stop asking for help only the Holy Spirit can give.


In the end, all I know is I LEARNED A LOT about this subject in the last few weeks. I now STAND firm in my belief knowing HOW MUCH is written, what words TRULY mean not just what I thought they meant and when JUDGMENT comes, it will be full of MERCY. What more can we ask? Those who are truly seeking for Gods Truth can find it here and if they are SMART will know they have to get through the 'afflictions' of the words of those who oppose but IF WHAT IS WRITTEN is what they are seeking then it will be found.

Again, I thank you for staying on task and carrying on when I could not. And Magenta too! Excellent work in my opinion anyhow. GOD BLESS
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
This is being VERY dishonest. No one says any of these nutty claims.

Death DOES MEAN death, but applies only to the body. Ditto for destroy and perish. As for ECT, Rev 20:10 directly teaches it.
What's the purpose of the false accusation if they haven't worked for you before? just seems like "you're VERY dishonest" when you can't prove anything is ridiculous. That actually confirms the point I made in a previous comment. You'll literally say anything to discredit those who expose you as a false teacher. What else do you have? Reveal yourself.
 
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
218
63
Only mod can close a thread. Perhaps the site owner could also, but he does not seem to involve himself in forum matters.
Is there somewhere I make that request? Is it something that can be requested?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,163
30,312
113
Is there somewhere I make that request? Is it something that can be requested?
Mod does not usually close threads at the request of others (that I know of). People do get banned for extreme abuse.

If people and posts in this thread and have already been reported, and mod has taken no action, it is unlikely he will.

The best way for a thread to "die" is to simply stop posting in it. It will eventually fall off the front page and into obscurity as other threads become more active. At some point, somebody else will come along and start the whole conversation all over again in a new thread.
 
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
218
63
Can or able does not suggest a negative. It suggests the affirmative which is that God can destroy both soul and body in hell because He is able to do anything. This fact meshes with scripture which says the unsaved perish, or are destroyed, or are put to death. It never even once says all of the unsaved go to eternal torment. That's why context is key.

The Bible clearly never affirms the negative which is what eternal tormentors want the Bible to say, but this isn't sound logic and isn't how reality works. God can/or is able to destroy soul and body because that's the alternative to eternal life. The opposite of eternal life is death. The body, soul, and spirit live forever in the resurrection. Glory to God.

I BELIEVE it is written 'is able' because some will be resurrected out from the dead to 'everlasting life' while others will be cast into the lake of fire. So the 'double standard' (which AREN'T the words I am looking for but will do for now) has to be accommodated.

So, HE DOES kill both body and soul in hell but HE ALSO DOES NOT kill both body and soul in hell.
 
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
218
63
Mod does not usually close threads at the request of others (that I know of). People do get banned for extreme abuse.

If people and posts in this thread and have already been reported, and mod has taken no action, it is unlikely he will.

The best way for a thread to "die" is to simply stop posting in it. It will eventually fall off the front page and into obscurity as other threads become more active. At some point, somebody else will come along and start the whole conversation all over again in a new thread.
You are just a fountain of information. I love and appreciate that and I thank you again. I think we are all in agreement. See you in the next thread!!!
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
I BELIEVE it is written 'is able' because some will be resurrected out from the dead to 'everlasting life' while others will be cast into the lake of fire. So the 'double standard' (which AREN'T the words I am looking for but will do for now) has to be accommodated.

So, HE DOES kill both body and soul in hell but HE ALSO DOES NOT kill both body and soul in hell.
If I follow you correctly, I think you are seeing something that I have wondered about for a while.

Revelation 20:11-14
11Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.
And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

does it seem like those who were resurrected from hell were checked to see if they are in the book of life?
 
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
218
63
What's the purpose of the false accusation if they haven't worked for you before? just seems like "you're VERY dishonest" when you can't prove anything is ridiculous. That actually confirms the point I made in a previous comment. You'll literally say anything to discredit those who expose you as a false teacher. What else do you have? Reveal yourself.
I think it is time for US to leave it in GODS HANDS. Anyone the Spirit is leading will be able to discern.

1 Corinthians 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

I'll see you in the next thread!!!

I am depending on the Holy Spirit to help my flesh walk away. I pray you do the same. Let's just 'ignore' what has been exposed.

 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
I think it is time for US to leave it in GODS HANDS. Anyone the Spirit is leading will be able to discern.

1 Corinthians 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

I'll see you in the next thread!!!

I am depending on the Holy Spirit to help my flesh walk away. I pray you do the same. Let's just 'ignore' what has been exposed.
fair enough let's do that.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,163
30,312
113
You are just a fountain of information. I love and appreciate that and I thank you again.
I think we are all in agreement. See you in the next thread!!!
Thank you, and you are welcome :) I appreciate those who stand for the truth on this matter also :D

I find it odd that having an emotional response and/or attachment to the goodness mercy and love of God is called maudlin.

I wonder if they would say Jesus was/is maudlin also.

Don't forget that the premise of their arguments rest squarely on the lie
of Satan at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Is it spiritual warfare or SCRIPT-ual? Is it under the influence of pride or is it evil? Is it because of ignorance or is it intentional? Has God blinded them or are they simply batting for the other side?


When I see someone who can't control the lust of the flesh, I remind myself they MUST BE BABES in the word. They have yet to feast on the meat. If they had then they would be able to control the flesh and converse in a manner that would make the Lord say 'WELL DONE good and faithful servant'.

Instead we have the MODERN day 'Jew' Christian who knows all the words but is not much different than

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Romans 2:18 And knowest HIS WILL and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

Romans 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

Romans 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast THE FORM OF KNOWLEDGE and of the truth in the law.

Romans 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

Romans 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

AKA thou knows how we are told to speak and treat one another and even when reminded, thou CHOOSES not to, but instead pushes harder believing they have gotten a hold of someones soft spot and need to go in for the kill.

That is why I put forth the SCRIPTURES as a reminder of WHO we are representing AS HAS BEEN DONE FOR ME. The 'flesh' gets a hold of all of us but when I HAVE been reminded, I have THANKED them and strove to get back on the narrow path, crucify that flesh and get back to the WORK at hand. I have also been thanked for the reminder, and the conversations have come way back down to the 'Christian' way and stayed there and even though still disputing and no agreement in sight, RESPECT has been restored and CHRISTIANS everywhere are looked at better.

The Jews under the law failed just as the 'foolish nation' as the 'church' is failing. NO ONE wants to do it GODS way and it shows. It starts out impossible but THE LOVE OF GOD wins out and the eyes are opened and WHAT IS WRITTEN becomes the only point. I work on it EVERYDAY and probably fail everyday but I NEVER stop trying, I never stop asking for help only the Holy Spirit can give.


In the end, all I know is I LEARNED A LOT about this subject in the last few weeks. I now STAND firm in my belief knowing HOW MUCH is written, what words TRULY mean not just what I thought they meant and when JUDGMENT comes, it will be full of MERCY. What more can we ask? Those who are truly seeking for Gods Truth can find it here and if they are SMART will know they have to get through the 'afflictions' of the words of those who oppose but IF WHAT IS WRITTEN is what they are seeking then it will be found.

Again, I thank you for staying on task and carrying on when I could not. And Magenta too! Excellent work in my opinion anyhow. GOD BLESS
i think before you judge other as pride or ignorance, you have to tell us what is your definition of pride, and tell us why our attitude met the qualification to be call pride

from our side, we may think you have be brain wash with SDA doctrine and we try to love you, to depend on only bible teaching

in the end of the day, is up to you, your decision, all we can do is pray, ask the guidance of the Holy Spirit

consider Ellen White the founder of SDA make some wrong prophecy about second coming, why you listen to her doctrine

don’t you know false prophecy mean false prophet?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,163
30,312
113
consider Ellen White the founder of SDA make some wrong prophecy about second coming, why you listen to her doctrine
That is a logical fallacy, probably more than one.

Guilt by association, faulty premise, red herring, to name a few.

Ellen White has zero to do with what I believe.

My beliefs are based on what the Bible says.

Odd that those who oppose actually believe what atheists say above the revealed written word of God.

And multiple times contradict what the Bible clearly teaches. As well as their own selves.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
FreeGrace2 said:
This is being VERY dishonest. No one says any of these nutty claims.

Death DOES MEAN death, but applies only to the body. Ditto for destroy and perish. As for ECT, Rev 20:10 directly teaches it.
What's the purpose of the false accusation if they haven't worked for you before?
Of course they work. No one has said what you keep claiming. What you don't like is that death, destroy, and perish all refer to only the body. And NO ONE says the nutty things you claim.

just seems like "you're VERY dishonest" when you can't prove anything is ridiculous.
You have proven that YOUR OWN claims are ridiculous.

That actually confirms the point I made in a previous comment. You'll literally say anything to discredit those who expose you as a false teacher.
Your charge is false.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
So, HE DOES kill both body and soul in hell but HE ALSO DOES NOT kill both body and soul in hell.
Thanks for your extremely convoluted statement.

So, in addition to "able to" and "will" meaning the SAME THING, now you've given us "He DOES" and He DOES NOT' meaning the SAME THING.

Seems you are really on a roll here.