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Sadly - apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, they don't comprehend the word "dead". Dead is Dead!. No life, no movement, no discernment, in ones spiritual life. Therefore, we are all like dead batteries, in our spiritual lives. Not an ounce of juice or spark. We can not hear the gospel because we are dead. We can not choose Christ as our Savior because we are dead.
God's mercy and grace are the answer to this dilemma. The Holy Spirit, at the appointed time, comes and "jumpstarts" (The New Birth), the elected one's battery. Now possessing spiritual life, that one can move towards the Biblical Christ because that one now has seeing eyes and hearing ears and discerns the message of the Gospel in Truth. No birth, no ability.
It is really quite elementary. If one is dead, then someone (God), must bestow life. But the world so hates this truth. It's fallen pride will not endure it. They hate "God's Sovereignty, because it denies their right to be sovereign. They hate Election because it may deny their right to be included. They hate Predestination because it means God's plan is set and unchangeable. They hate Limited Atonement because how dare God send His Son to die for only the Elect, in the Covenant of Redemption and not for all.
In every case, man is excluded from glorying. It is God's Sovereign will, God's choice, God's predestinating, God's Redemptive Plan and Work.
Rejoice in the Truth and be humbled by His Grace. Keep up the good work and may God be with you.
God's mercy and grace are the answer to this dilemma. The Holy Spirit, at the appointed time, comes and "jumpstarts" (The New Birth), the elected one's battery. Now possessing spiritual life, that one can move towards the Biblical Christ because that one now has seeing eyes and hearing ears and discerns the message of the Gospel in Truth. No birth, no ability.
It is really quite elementary. If one is dead, then someone (God), must bestow life. But the world so hates this truth. It's fallen pride will not endure it. They hate "God's Sovereignty, because it denies their right to be sovereign. They hate Election because it may deny their right to be included. They hate Predestination because it means God's plan is set and unchangeable. They hate Limited Atonement because how dare God send His Son to die for only the Elect, in the Covenant of Redemption and not for all.
In every case, man is excluded from glorying. It is God's Sovereign will, God's choice, God's predestinating, God's Redemptive Plan and Work.
Rejoice in the Truth and be humbled by His Grace. Keep up the good work and may God be with you.
This will probably be of no use to you - but I will respond.
The Greek word for "world" is: κόσμος (kos'-mos). It can be translated in many, many different ways. Cosmos, Universe, Creation, Earth and World. The word "world" can itself have many different meanings. It can mean: World, as in a planet or world, as in this planet or world, as asystem of Government or world, as a system of ideas or world, as a collection of things or world, as a collection of people.
Which "world", then, are you referring?
The Greek word for "world" is: κόσμος (kos'-mos). It can be translated in many, many different ways. Cosmos, Universe, Creation, Earth and World. The word "world" can itself have many different meanings. It can mean: World, as in a planet or world, as in this planet or world, as asystem of Government or world, as a system of ideas or world, as a collection of things or world, as a collection of people.
Which "world", then, are you referring?
Are you thinking of John 3:16?
There is nothing in that text - that proves it is the world of humanity. The word "world", in that text, most likely refers to the world, in it's unfallen state. Why? Because the verse says: "God so loved the world..." The word translated "loved" is an Aorist Indicative verb. Meaning that God "loved" (past tense), the world. It carries no meaning that God is loving the world right now. God indeed, loved the world as He Created it. The fall of Adam and Eve marred it and God had no intention of leaving it that way. So He sent His Son to redeem it.
Since God's Redemptive purpose, also includes His Elect, many have concluded that "World" means the world of the Elect, however, that cannot be gleamed from this passage. Why? Because of the Aorist nature of the word "Loved". It cannot be said, that God loved the Elect from the foundation of the world but now is not loving the Elect.
The only interpretation that fits, is the fallen world.
There is nothing in that text - that proves it is the world of humanity. The word "world", in that text, most likely refers to the world, in it's unfallen state. Why? Because the verse says: "God so loved the world..." The word translated "loved" is an Aorist Indicative verb. Meaning that God "loved" (past tense), the world. It carries no meaning that God is loving the world right now. God indeed, loved the world as He Created it. The fall of Adam and Eve marred it and God had no intention of leaving it that way. So He sent His Son to redeem it.
Since God's Redemptive purpose, also includes His Elect, many have concluded that "World" means the world of the Elect, however, that cannot be gleamed from this passage. Why? Because of the Aorist nature of the word "Loved". It cannot be said, that God loved the Elect from the foundation of the world but now is not loving the Elect.
The only interpretation that fits, is the fallen world.
God is love; it only suffices to say that God loves His entire creation, fallen or otherwise. If it were not so, God would not have sent Christ to die on the cross, and before doing so, teaching everyone the Greatest Commandments and the Great Commission. The beauty of God’s grace is its simplicity; akin to having faith like a child.
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You are wasting your efforts. This one argues calvinism in every thread whether or not that is the topic 
calvin's Cliff notes for all
calvin's Cliff notes for all
Pastor Dave Orrison writes a blog about narcissists every Friday. He writes:
"All the narcissists I have known have been christians... None of us should be surprised to find narcissists in church... But what do you do about it? Protect yourself. Learn to recognize the behavior that hurts you and others. You almost certainly will not be able to change the minds of church leadership toward the narcissist. They are often the last ones to see the damage these folks can do... I wish there was a more helpful and effective way of dealing with narcissists, particularly in the church. But the truth is that these people usually win. They are ruthless, willing to use whatever information and opportunities they are given to defend themselves and attack those who threaten them. Most of the time it just isn’t worth it. Churches and volunteer organizations are poorly prepared to deal with predators."
https://graceformyheart.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/the-christian-narcissist/
There definitely are narcissists inside and outside of christian circles. But I don't believe that you can really tell who is a narcissist because of what they say. In christian circles, narcissists talk like christians. I believe that recognizing a narcissist-- especially in christian circles-- has a lot more to do with the narcissist's attitude than what the narcissist says or does.
Again, one of the reasons that identifying a narcissist has more to do with recognizing their attitude more so than what they say or even do is because narcissists are careful about how they present themselves to others and will often chameleonize to fit in wherever they are, including in christian circles. Because they're disagreeable with everybody, narcissists rarely are overtly disagreeable.
DC Robertsson has a website with good biblical teaching on how the Bible identifies narcissists. Anyone who wants the Bible's opinion on narcissists, who wants biblical traits of a narcissist, and who wants the narcissists in the Bible identified should visit and read some of the articles on his website: https://biblicalperspectivesonnarcissism.com/.
"All the narcissists I have known have been christians... None of us should be surprised to find narcissists in church... But what do you do about it? Protect yourself. Learn to recognize the behavior that hurts you and others. You almost certainly will not be able to change the minds of church leadership toward the narcissist. They are often the last ones to see the damage these folks can do... I wish there was a more helpful and effective way of dealing with narcissists, particularly in the church. But the truth is that these people usually win. They are ruthless, willing to use whatever information and opportunities they are given to defend themselves and attack those who threaten them. Most of the time it just isn’t worth it. Churches and volunteer organizations are poorly prepared to deal with predators."
https://graceformyheart.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/the-christian-narcissist/
There definitely are narcissists inside and outside of christian circles. But I don't believe that you can really tell who is a narcissist because of what they say. In christian circles, narcissists talk like christians. I believe that recognizing a narcissist-- especially in christian circles-- has a lot more to do with the narcissist's attitude than what the narcissist says or does.
Again, one of the reasons that identifying a narcissist has more to do with recognizing their attitude more so than what they say or even do is because narcissists are careful about how they present themselves to others and will often chameleonize to fit in wherever they are, including in christian circles. Because they're disagreeable with everybody, narcissists rarely are overtly disagreeable.
DC Robertsson has a website with good biblical teaching on how the Bible identifies narcissists. Anyone who wants the Bible's opinion on narcissists, who wants biblical traits of a narcissist, and who wants the narcissists in the Bible identified should visit and read some of the articles on his website: https://biblicalperspectivesonnarcissism.com/.
From "narcissists" to "predators"? And that too about Christians? Something is off about this whole subject. And why so much focus on basically what is self-centeredness -- "excessive interest in or admiration of oneself and one's physical appearance"? Why does anyone have to "protect" themselves from people who are self-centered? It is a simple matter to simply walk away. But this topic is more about victimhood. Everyone today sees themselves as victims -- even predators Christopher Wray and Merrick Garland. After all their lawless actions, the "poor FBI" are badly misunderstood victims!
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Actually, the op was devised as a desire to speak about ways to conduct ourselves with those people from a biblical standpoint
it seems folks would rather just talk about unsavory behavior though. shrugs
I prefer trying to deal with things instead of just going on about what we already really know. Can't help how people respond
it seems folks would rather just talk about unsavory behavior though. shrugs
I prefer trying to deal with things instead of just going on about what we already really know. Can't help how people respond
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uh....I'm not surprised to find a narcissist anywhere actually...but they are not all in church.
I think this op was too clinical for most if the responses are any indication. We should not walk around saying this or that person is a narcissist. the actual designation is not just someone who is greedy, selfish and wants their own way. The actual description of a narcissist is not as simple as that.
Anyway, my intention was not to point out narcissists but talk about ways we can deal with people who are so uncaring about others.
I guess anyone who wants to check out your links can do so...but again, church is pretty much often off the rails anyway these days
I think this op was too clinical for most if the responses are any indication. We should not walk around saying this or that person is a narcissist. the actual designation is not just someone who is greedy, selfish and wants their own way. The actual description of a narcissist is not as simple as that.
Anyway, my intention was not to point out narcissists but talk about ways we can deal with people who are so uncaring about others.
I guess anyone who wants to check out your links can do so...but again, church is pretty much often off the rails anyway these days
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ok, well I don't suppose it will hurt any if I post some ways to deal with a narcissist in a biblical manner. I will add though, that I am not in the business of solving the problems in any given church. Really, I was just looking at personal relationships; if you can apply this to a church situation though, don't let me stop you.
Boundaries. Did you know that the Bible actually reminds us to have boundaries?
Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it. Proverbs 4:23 How is the heart represented in scripture? In scripture, you will find that the heart represents your mind, your will and emotions. For example, Jesus says in Matthew: Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, Why are you thinking evil things in your hearts? Matthew 9:4. Obviously we think with our minds (we are told to renew our minds with scripture, in other words agree with what the word says)
A narcissist will try to take down heart boundaries to be able to control a person. So, if we understand what scripture states, when we come across a controlling or gaslighting individual, we know they are operating OUTSIDE of how a believer is instructed to act. And yes, this behavior is seen in churches also which is why we need discernment.
It is ok for a believer to say 'no' or disagree with imposing behavior. It is ok for a believer to pay attention to a 'feeling' or perception that something is 'off'. Gossip or discussing a person with another, is not the way to deal with it though. PRAYER and understanding before God, in other words a humble and teachable heart, as well as prayer for the person in question, is the right way to approach the situation.
Boundaries. Did you know that the Bible actually reminds us to have boundaries?
Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it. Proverbs 4:23 How is the heart represented in scripture? In scripture, you will find that the heart represents your mind, your will and emotions. For example, Jesus says in Matthew: Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, Why are you thinking evil things in your hearts? Matthew 9:4. Obviously we think with our minds (we are told to renew our minds with scripture, in other words agree with what the word says)
A narcissist will try to take down heart boundaries to be able to control a person. So, if we understand what scripture states, when we come across a controlling or gaslighting individual, we know they are operating OUTSIDE of how a believer is instructed to act. And yes, this behavior is seen in churches also which is why we need discernment.
It is ok for a believer to say 'no' or disagree with imposing behavior. It is ok for a believer to pay attention to a 'feeling' or perception that something is 'off'. Gossip or discussing a person with another, is not the way to deal with it though. PRAYER and understanding before God, in other words a humble and teachable heart, as well as prayer for the person in question, is the right way to approach the situation.
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Your response is weird. If you have a problem with the articles, go find the article authors and talk to them about it. Churches are very docile and 'welcoming'. Of course predators are attracted to them. Pastors are anything but confrontational.
You should be happy Dave Orrison actually decided to take on this topic and to be honest about it. He himself said that church leaders (ie. pastors first) are the last to recognize narcissists and last to see the harm they do. And DC Robertsson has new insight from the Bible into the reality, character, and MO of narcissists. Shouldn't you be happy about that.
You should be happy Dave Orrison actually decided to take on this topic and to be honest about it. He himself said that church leaders (ie. pastors first) are the last to recognize narcissists and last to see the harm they do. And DC Robertsson has new insight from the Bible into the reality, character, and MO of narcissists. Shouldn't you be happy about that.
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No. Your idea of what this op is about is incorrect. No need to say my response is weird or that I have a problem.
I said if anyone wants to check out the articles go ahead...as if I could or would stop them. So you are snorting for nothing.
I am really grateful and blessed to know Christ is my Savior, which should be the focus of those who have to deal with a narcissist.
You are free to go out and bless churches. As for myself, God has not called me to do that. It would be beneficial if people would discuss the topic and not other people. That, applies to every single thread in this forum.
I said if anyone wants to check out the articles go ahead...as if I could or would stop them. So you are snorting for nothing.
I am really grateful and blessed to know Christ is my Savior, which should be the focus of those who have to deal with a narcissist.
You are free to go out and bless churches. As for myself, God has not called me to do that. It would be beneficial if people would discuss the topic and not other people. That, applies to every single thread in this forum.
P
This does not make sense. I am thankful when people learn better behavior and understand that arguing is never the answer even if the other person is not a narcissist.
Let's clarify. I post what I would consider a helpful way to deal with difficult people according to scripture and you ignore that and become accusatory.
Not helpful so excuse me if I do not respond to your offer to discuss more narcissist behavior from your expert, when I am trying to discuss how we can help ourselves in dealing with the narcissists around us.
Let's clarify. I post what I would consider a helpful way to deal with difficult people according to scripture and you ignore that and become accusatory.
Not helpful so excuse me if I do not respond to your offer to discuss more narcissist behavior from your expert, when I am trying to discuss how we can help ourselves in dealing with the narcissists around us.
Polar Express: Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it. Proverbs 4:23 How is the heart represented in scripture? In scripture, you will find that the heart represents your mind, your will and emotions. For example, Jesus says in Matthew: Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, Why are you thinking evil things in your hearts? Matthew 9:4. Obviously we think with our minds (we are told to renew our minds with scripture, in other words agree with what the word says)
Caleb: I love Proverbs 4:23. The rest of what you wrote is a little off. (Don't worry. We all only know in part.) You have a conscious, a subconscious, and an unconscious. All three of them think, but they all think in totally different ways. When people say the word 'think', 99% of the time, they are talking about 'thoughts of the heart'. However, the Bible focuses on 'the thoughts of the heart', because "out of it are the issues of life". Your heart is where your subconscious thoughts are; it doesn't think with words like your conscious mind. Rather, it 'thinks' with a.) attitudes, b.) beliefs, c.) biases, prejudices, preferences, and d.) opinions. No words. Because your heart is your person or character-- the real you-- the Bible says little about 'thoughts of the mind' because "out of [the heart] are the issues of life". Because babies can't use words, they can't think in their conscious mind. They do their 'thinking' in their hearts (subconscious) which is where a person's attitudes, beliefs, biases (and prejudices and preferences), and opinions lie. You need language to think consciously; but your subconscious doesn't need language to think as it thinks in a different type of language. (The unconscious is a whole other world.)
Polar Express: ok, well I don't suppose it will hurt any if I post some ways to deal with a narcissist in a biblical manner.
Caleb: Please do. Too many christians are unnecessarily vulnerable.
Caleb: I love Proverbs 4:23. The rest of what you wrote is a little off. (Don't worry. We all only know in part.) You have a conscious, a subconscious, and an unconscious. All three of them think, but they all think in totally different ways. When people say the word 'think', 99% of the time, they are talking about 'thoughts of the heart'. However, the Bible focuses on 'the thoughts of the heart', because "out of it are the issues of life". Your heart is where your subconscious thoughts are; it doesn't think with words like your conscious mind. Rather, it 'thinks' with a.) attitudes, b.) beliefs, c.) biases, prejudices, preferences, and d.) opinions. No words. Because your heart is your person or character-- the real you-- the Bible says little about 'thoughts of the mind' because "out of [the heart] are the issues of life". Because babies can't use words, they can't think in their conscious mind. They do their 'thinking' in their hearts (subconscious) which is where a person's attitudes, beliefs, biases (and prejudices and preferences), and opinions lie. You need language to think consciously; but your subconscious doesn't need language to think as it thinks in a different type of language. (The unconscious is a whole other world.)
Polar Express: ok, well I don't suppose it will hurt any if I post some ways to deal with a narcissist in a biblical manner.
Caleb: Please do. Too many christians are unnecessarily vulnerable.