And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[kleronomos]

But your maudlin sentiments just won't let you accept the truth.

Do you understand the definition of that word?
adjective
Effusively sad or full of self-pity; extremely sentimental: synonym: sentimental.
Tearful; easily moved to tears; exciting to tears; excessively sentimental; weak and silly.
Drunk, or somewhat drunk; fuddled; given to drunkenness.


Do my feelings of mercy bother you on some level? Is my sense of right and wrong so far off that you see me as too sentimental. Please explain

 

[FreeGrace2]

If someone is sent to jail for a week, their punishment is experienced. If one is put to death, their punishment is experienced.

The physical mode of death is experienced, except things like lethal injections, etc. Then all they do is go to sleep. There's NO punishment in going to sleep. But your point is pointless anyway. You STILL don't have any verse that tells us clearly that souls are destroyed. And the verses that use "soul" are used to mean the "person", not just the immaterial.

How are you missing this point over and over. THE LAKE OF FIRE IS GOD's consuming fire. The body and soul go in smoke is all that is left.

Please show me the verse that says "body and soul go in smoke".

The punishment has been carried out, it remains as having been done forever. So simple unless trying to change what is written. The good receive eternal life, the evil death.

Go ahead and ignore Dan 12:2 which speaks of mental and emotional suffering which is eternal; shame and contempt.

I feel funny having to speak to and defend things that are generally just 'known and accepted' because people have brains

Kind of a weird "defense", since your theory is in the very SMALL minority among evangelicals.

So, still no verses on eternal living torment?

All you focus on is "torment" as if there is only one kind. Dan 12:2 clearly shows mental/emotional suffering.

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why are your questions so DENSE?

Well, at least you acknowledge that your questions are dense.

If nothing else you are predictable in your treating everyone with the same contempt.

 

[kleronomos]

The physical mode of death is experienced, except things like lethal injections, etc. Then all they do is go to sleep. There's NO punishment in going to sleep. But your point is pointless anyway. You STILL don't have any verse that tells us clearly that souls are destroyed. And the verses that use "soul" are used to mean the "person", not just the immaterial.

The penalty for sin is death. DEATH IS THE PUNISHMENT. THE ENDING OF LIFE

Though YOUR DEFINITION OF DEATH IS ETERNAL LIFE IN TORMENT, THAT IS NOT WHAT IS WRITTEN.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
But your maudlin sentiments just won't let you accept the truth.

Do you understand the definition of that word?

I sure do. Which is why I use it.

adjective
Effusively sad or full of self-pity; extremely sentimental: synonym: sentimental.
Tearful; easily moved to tears; exciting to tears; excessively sentimental; weak and silly.
Drunk, or somewhat drunk; fuddled; given to drunkenness.

Just as most words have a range of meanings and usage, focus on "excessively sentimental". That's how I am using it.

Apparently you don't know that God is NOT sentimental.

Do my feelings of mercy bother you on some level?

They aren't "feelings of mercy". Why would God extend mercy to those who rejected Him and have NO EXCUSE for it?

Is my sense of right and wrong so far off that you see me as too sentimental. Please explain

Your "sense" is maudlin sentimentality. You don't like what God's word says about eternal punishment, shame and contempt. So you make up what is acceptable to you.

Your views are not far from that of the atheists.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh I see,
I was responding to Jackson's comment too. I believe he has also been arguing against annhilation.
The quote- copy seems to have come out a bit jumbled on that series of comments.

I hate when that happens!!

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, let's test your opinion. If you were guilty of a crime and the punishment was painful electric shocks (non-lethal but VERY painful) for 5 hours, and you had the choice of being placed in a medicated coma for those 5 hours or not, what would you choose?

So, you DON'T want to answer my question. Why not? Why do you instead try to change the subject?

My question parallels your theory of punishment. You think punishment can be inflicted on someone who no longer exists.

To your answer, as I'm never one to avoid questions, I would be nothing, I wouldn't exist. So, what is your point?

I gave you a scenario to show that ANYONE would choose to NOT experience painful punishment. Your theory plays right into the hand of atheists.

So YOU believe that the eternal heaven will be comprised of those who JUST DIDN'T WANT TO SUFFER ETERNALTORMENT. Do you really think that is the best God could do? WHAT A WONDERFUL GROUP. That is about the saddest commentary I can think of.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If nothing else you are predictable in your treating everyone with the same contempt.

I have contempt for false doctrine. Not people. But you seem so full of emotions that it may be difficult for you to see straight.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The penalty for sin is death. DEATH IS THE PUNISHMENT. THE ENDING OF LIFE

And...you have NOTHING about souls ceasing to exist. You are assuming such.

Though YOUR DEFINITION OF DEATH IS ETERNAL LIFE IN TORMENT, THAT IS NOT WHAT IS WRITTEN.

Well, there goes your dishonesty again. There is eternal death, experienced by unbelievers through mental and emotional suffering for ever. But that offends you, so you ASSUME that offends God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So YOU believe that the eternal heaven will be comprised of those who JUST DIDN'T WANT TO SUFFER ETERNALTORMENT.

I am just amazed at your wildly inaccurate conclusions. You have no excuse for such crazy conclusions. The eternal heaven will be comprised of...now pay real close attention...those who have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior.

Do you really think that is the best God could do?

I don't second-guess God, as it seems you do.

 

[kleronomos]

Please show me the verse that says "body and soul go in smoke".

Look on page 1. Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.



Do EVERYONE a big favor and go to the store and buy a couple pieces of lamb. Come home and light the BBQ. Put the piece of lamb on the BBQ. As it is cooking keep your eyes on the coals beneath the lamb. When the fat of the lamb liquifies and drops and hits the coals WATCH WHAT HAPPENS TO IT. Watch closely and try to SEE IF IT FEELS ANYTHING. THEN WATCH THAT SMOKE THAT GOES UP FOREVER AND EVER AND SEE IF IT IS FEELING ANYTHING.


When you get done doing that

THEN come back and we will talk

because until you do that apparently YOU CAN NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IS WRITTEN AND so what HAPPENS AT THE 2ND DEATH.

GOD COULD GIVE US NO BETTER DESCRIPTION OF WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE WHO PERISH.

 

[Magenta]

Jeremiah 7:31 (KJV) And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom,
to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jeremiah 19:5 (KJV) They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for
burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind.

Jeremiah 32:35 (NKJV) And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom,
to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them,
nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

2 Chronicles 28:3 (KJV) Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children
in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel.

2 Chronicles 33:6 (KJV) And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom:
also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and
with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Leviticus 18:21 You must not give any of your children to be sacrificed to
Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

God says burning people alive is evil, an abomination detestable to Him.

 

[kleronomos]

Forever/Eon

I'm afraid we are witnessing the effects of both pride and ignorance in what is written.

As for me, I tired more from seeing Gods Word made void than of these ever so tiring conversations. Quite the practice in taming the tongue (of which I still need much practice), but every time I stick to the words of God, and don't recompense evil for evil, I count it a small victory. But it remains as predictable as always the verbal assaults on my understanding are on their way. Just wanted to say thank you again for the Scriptures. I agree the translations of the words forever and eternal are a problem but have to add it is in the not rightly dividing of the Word.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Look on page 1. Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.



Do EVERYONE a big favor and go to the store and buy a couple pieces of lamb. Come home and light the BBQ. Put the piece of lamb on the BBQ. As it is cooking keep your eyes on the coals beneath the lamb. When the fat of the lamb liquifies and drops and hits the coals WATCH WHAT HAPPENS TO IT. Watch closely and try to SEE IF IT FEELS ANYTHING. THEN WATCH THAT SMOKE THAT GOES UP FOREVER AND EVER AND SEE IF IT IS FEELING ANYTHING.


When you get done doing that

THEN come back and we will talk

because until you do that apparently YOU CAN NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IS WRITTEN AND so what HAPPENS AT THE 2ND DEATH.

GOD COULD GIVE US NO BETTER DESCRIPTION OF WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE WHO PERISH.

Right, that works with pieces of flesh.
Try putting the mind, will, emotions, thoughts or memories of a lamb on the BBQ.

 

[Magenta]

I'm afraid we are witnessing the effects of both pride and ignorance in what is written.

As for me, I tired more from seeing Gods Word made void than of these ever so tiring conversations. Quite the practice in taming the tongue (of which I still need much practice), but every time I stick to the words of God, and don't recompense evil for evil, I count it a small victory. But it remains as predictable as always the verbal assaults on my understanding are on their way. Just wanted to say thank you again for the Scriptures. I agree the translations of the words forever and eternal are a problem but have to add it is in the not rightly dividing of the Word.

For what it's worth, I think you are doing quite well

 

[Runningman]

These debates all boil down to, all of us, claiming the literal where it suits us and the figurative where it doesn't. This is all that we can really show. His Spirit will surely lead
us gladly to all truth, if we approach Him, in humility, with all our heart, Jesus said so.

true but we need a foundation. The eternal life Jesus spoke of is literal, right? That’s the most commonly held viewpoint of being saved. If it’s true that the saved lives forever the opposite must be true that the unsaved don’t live forever.

If there is any part of an unsaved person still living somewhere, somehow, in body, soul, or spirit form then a part of that person is still alive and it isn’t true that they perish for not believing in Jesus according to John 3:16.

Essentially, that would mean even those who reject Christ live forever. Now we need to slam on the breaks and rethink this. The eternal torment mob understands this, but they just reject it.

Then the Bible continuously uses words like death, destruction, perish for the unsaved then there’s no rational way to understand this but to accept it as literal. Death is death, destruction is destruction, perish is perish, and eternal life is surely eternal life.

This is actually required to give the Bible any sense of being understood by the common man who relies of reason and logic expressed through written words.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Please show me the verse that says "body and soul go in smoke".

Look on page 1.

Huh? What book, perchance?

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Why would you see this as the immaterial soul? All of this speaks of their bodies. And, yes, their bodies WILL BE "consumed away" when thrown into the LOF. For sure.

Do EVERYONE a big favor and go to the store and buy a couple pieces of lamb. Come home and light the BBQ. Put the piece of lamb on the BBQ. As it is cooking keep your eyes on the coals beneath the lamb. When the fat of the lamb liquifies and drops and hits the coals WATCH WHAT HAPPENS TO IT. Watch closely and try to SEE IF IT FEELS ANYTHING. THEN WATCH THAT SMOKE THAT GOES UP FOREVER AND EVER AND SEE IF IT IS FEELING ANYTHING.

I know all about what bodies do in flames. Stinks too.

When you get done doing that THEN come back and we will talk

I've BBQ'd many kinds of beef. Don't need to burn up a lamb.

because until you do that apparently YOU CAN NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IS WRITTEN AND so what HAPPENS AT THE 2ND DEATH.

I know more about the second death than you do, apparently.

GOD COULD GIVE US NO BETTER DESCRIPTION OF WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE WHO PERISH.

I agree. Their bodies flame up and are consumed.

Why do you think a literal fire would have the same effect on both body and soul? You are just presuming again.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Right, that works with pieces of flesh.
Try putting the mind, will, emotions, thoughts or memories of a lamb on the BBQ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bodies burn up in fire. Souls, which are immaterial, are not touched by fire. They are left for the punishment of mental and emotional torment; such as shame, self contempt, regret, etc.

Depending on the kind of life an unbeliever has lived, it will be "more tolerable" for some than for others, which will be "less tolerable" than others. That is what Jesus taught?

Why is that so hard to accept?

 

[Mem]

true but we need a foundation. The eternal life Jesus spoke of is literal, right? That’s the most commonly held viewpoint of being saved. If it’s true that the saved lives forever the opposite must be true that the unsaved don’t live forever.

If there is any part of an unsaved person still living somewhere, somehow, in body, soul, or spirit form then a part of that person is still alive and it isn’t true that they perish for not believing in Jesus according to John 3:16.

Essentially, that would mean even those who reject Christ live forever. Now we need to slam on the breaks and rethink this. The eternal torment mob understands this, but they just reject it.

Then the Bible continuously uses words like death, destruction, perish for the unsaved then there’s no rational way to understand this but to accept it as literal. Death is death, destruction is destruction, perish is perish, and eternal life is surely eternal life.

This is actually required to give the Bible any sense of being understood by the common man who relies of reason and logic expressed through written words.

It absolutely needs be done that we apply the literal where the literal should be applied and the figurative where it is indeed as written. It's just that there are those that have to interpret these things the other way around in order to arrive at their convenience, rather than confronting their own humility that they have it mixed up with their intractability without first acknowledging the illness for what it is.