And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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What do you know about smoke? What produces SMOKE? Maybe that will help you with your understanding. Maybe a little less thinking in the 'flesh' would help also.
If you find any of this to be irrational, that would need to be worked out in prayer. I am only showing you what is written to point out how WHAT YOU ARE CONCLUDING from what is written shouldn't be taught as it is not of Gods word.
Eternal life in torment is NOT AN OPTION. The penalty for sin is death. That is the punishment that lasts forever. Just because one is not around to experience it AKA what DEATH causes is the lack of that knowledge, doesn't mean it hasn't happened as you keep INSISTING. Ask someone who has had a loved one die the first death. The person who died IS FOREVER gone from this life. If they experienced their 'death' by lethal injection having been found guilty of a crime then the PUNISHMENT of DEATH NEVER CHANGES making it eternal, and their DEATH means they have no more thoughts in this body.
ETERNAL PUNISHMENT. If that is too hard to understand, again, that can only be worked out in prayer.
You are trying to convince us that the penalty for sin IS ETERNAL LIFE, JUST NOT THE GOOD KIND
though WHAT IS WRITTEN is DEATH IS THE penalty FOR SIN.
The penalty is the punishment. It's just basic common sense.
Do you remember on page one when you wrote '
Yes, we do know something else. What you ignored. Maybe just your English translation. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
ESV - and the devil 1who had deceived them was 2thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where 3the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
You claim ONLY the devil will be tormented forever and ever. And 15 English translations have "they". So we KNOW that ALL 3; the beast, FP AND the devil will be tormented for ever and ever. In the LOF where ALL unbelievers will be cast after the GWT judgment.
IT IS ALL 3 who will be tormented for ever and ever.
BUT even then, you made sure to separate the unbelievers from the 3. And say what you will now, that will be for ever and ever, exactly what you did.
Because you question and my answer don't have anything to do with what is written. And No, I am not trying to change the subject. I don't answer questions that follow after the same pattern of those who were trying to trap Jesus. So you can ask that kind of question and then try and make IT seem as IF I am trying to HIDE something by not answering it, but it can clearly be seen for what it is by those who can discern good from evil.
that’s not right either. This actually matters if punishment is a noun, adjective, or verb. Punishment is a noun, punishing is an adjective, punish is a verb.
Here’s the way it can be used:
Noun form - Eternal punishment- the object that experiences eternal punishment experiences it one time and the effect is eternal.
Adjective form - Eternal punishing - the state of the object is in eternal punishment and it never ends.
Verb form - Eternally punish- the object being punished will be be punished eternally.
what you require is either an adjective or a verb, but you can’t have that because the Bible doesn’t say that and never will. We also must look at the whole body of verses to form a conclusion. The eternal punishment must be death. That’s the only way it makes sense grammatically or Biblically.
Job 26 (NASB)
5 “The departed spirits are made to tremble
Under the waters and their inhabitants.
6 Sheol is naked before Him,
And Abaddon has no covering.
Ecc 12 (NASB)
6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the spring is shattered
and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Isa 14 (NASB)
9 Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come;
It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10 They will all respond and say to you,
‘Even you have become weak as we,
You have become like us.
11 Your pride and the music of your harps
Have been brought down to Sheol;
Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you
And worms are your covering.’
Luke 16 (NASB)
22 Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s arms; and the rich man also died
and was buried. 23 And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms
Cessation of the human spirit or soul-sleep after physical death isn't a Biblical teaching.
Humans were created immortal by God. Please don't assume that I mean to say we are exactly like our creator.
We are not omnipotent, omnipresent & omniscient Like God. We have not always existed like God has. We are created beings.
The Angels are created beings. We have been created to be immortal. That doesn't mean that ourselves & angels have the same immortality as God.
FreeGrace2 said:
Very good question! Thanks.
Dan 12:2 shows what the unbeliever will be in for: eternal shame and contempt. These are mental experiences, not body experiences. Their resurrected bodies (Acts 24:15) will die again, hence the LOF is called the "second death".
So, what's left is the soul and its mental thoughts. The "gnashing teeth" is obviously figurative, so we can understand the emotional and mental suffering that leads us to gnash our teeth.
Rather, we know from Dan 12:2 that the punishment includes mental anguish, pain, shame, and contempt.
And Jesus taught that when He told of Lazarus and a rich man. Both died and went to Hades; Lazarus to Paradise and the rich man to torments. Yet, neither had a physical body, since their souls were separated from their bodies. It is clear from what Jesus said that the rich man was literally in torment. That HAD TO BE referring to his soul, even though he spoke about water on his tongue.
From what the rich man said, it is clear that he was suffering from regret and didn't want his brothers to have his fate.
Very good question! Thanks.
Dan 12:2 shows what the unbeliever will be in for: eternal shame and contempt. These are mental experiences, not body experiences. Their resurrected bodies (Acts 24:15) will die again, hence the LOF is called the "second death".
So, what's left is the soul and its mental thoughts. The "gnashing teeth" is obviously figurative, so we can understand the emotional and mental suffering that leads us to gnash our teeth.
Well, that won't be me.
And I agree!
And nowhere in Scripture is there any claim that God destroys souls. Yes, He can. But the Bible does not say he does or will.
Rather, we know from Dan 12:2 that the punishment includes mental anguish, pain, shame, and contempt.
And Jesus taught that when He told of Lazarus and a rich man. Both died and went to Hades; Lazarus to Paradise and the rich man to torments. Yet, neither had a physical body, since their souls were separated from their bodies. It is clear from what Jesus said that the rich man was literally in torment. That HAD TO BE referring to his soul, even though he spoke about water on his tongue.
From what the rich man said, it is clear that he was suffering from regret and didn't want his brothers to have his fate.
These debates all boil down to, all of us, claiming the literal where it suits us and the figurative where it doesn't. This is all that we can really show. His Spirit will surely lead
us gladly to all truth, if we approach Him, in humility, with all our heart, Jesus said so.
Jackson123 said:
that mean soul can fell pain
that mean soul can fell pain
Jesus' account of a rich man who died and went (his soul went) to Hades was experiencing pain. This isn't difficult.
If someone is sent to jail for a week, their punishment is experienced. If one is put to death, their punishment is experienced. How are you missing this point over and over. THE LAKE OF FIRE IS GOD's consuming fire. The body and soul go in smoke is all that is left. The punishment has been carried out, it remains as having been done forever. So simple unless trying to change what is written. The good receive eternal life, the evil death.
I feel funny having to speak to and defend things that are generally just 'known and accepted' because people have brains
So, still no verses on eternal living torment? Just DEATH as the penalty for sin reigning on in the conversation. Just as it is written.
What does it matter what atheists think? They are fools, according to Psa 14:1 and Isa 53:1. What matters is what God's Word says. It doesn't say that God destroys souls. It is clear that He destroys people, commonly described as "souls". We know that the resurrected bodies of unbelievers will DIE AGAIN in the LOF. So let's just accept that. But Dan 12:2 and Luke 16 and the account of a rich man show that the soul experiences shame, contempt (of self) etc.
Unbelievers received mercy when Jesus Christ died for them and God revealed His divine power in creation (Rom 1:19-21). So man has NO EXCUSE. He ends up in the LOF because of his own actions.
Amen! But keep in mind that punishment in the LOF is no way described as "life", much less "eternal life" in the Bible. It will be an eternal punishment of the soul.
FreeGrace2 said:
Very good question! Thanks.
Dan 12:2 shows what the unbeliever will be in for: eternal shame and contempt. These are mental experiences, not body experiences. Their resurrected bodies (Acts 24:15) will die again, hence the LOF is called the "second death".
So, what's left is the soul and its mental thoughts. The "gnashing teeth" is obviously figurative, so we can understand the emotional and mental suffering that leads us to gnash our teeth.
Well, that won't be me.
And I agree!
And nowhere in Scripture is there any claim that God destroys souls. Yes, He can. But the Bible does not say he does or will.
Rather, we know from Dan 12:2 that the punishment includes mental anguish, pain, shame, and contempt.
And Jesus taught that when He told of Lazarus and a rich man. Both died and went to Hades; Lazarus to Paradise and the rich man to torments. Yet, neither had a physical body, since their souls were separated from their bodies. It is clear from what Jesus said that the rich man was literally in torment. That HAD TO BE referring to his soul, even though he spoke about water on his tongue.
From what the rich man said, it is clear that he was suffering from regret and didn't want his brothers to have his fate.
This just shows you take it literally where it suits you and figuratively where it doesn't.
It says Lazarus died and was taken into Abraham's bosom. You assume it's just his soul, by reason of his death, but that still only an asssumption since the language doesn't exclude his body because his finger is mentioned.
No one is saying there isn't pain in hell. But we are talking about the LOF that comes AFTER HELL.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Absolutely!! I was responding to Jackson's comment. I am enjoying your replies; very thoughtful and truthful.
Amen! I know that and appreciate your posts.
FreeGrace2 said:
Your comment following the quote of Matt 25:46 is just an opinion. What's the point of a fire being "everlasting" if everything thrown into it is totally consumed, leaving nothing left? That is irrational.
God is not irrational. His eternal fire is for eternal punishment. Punishment, BY DEFINITION, is experienced.
But your maudlin sentiments just won't let you accept the truth.
Why do you keep LYING? I have made very clear that existence in the LOF is NOT any kind of life, but you think you're so smart and keep describing what I believe from the Bible to be an "eternal life". It is literally eternal DEATH.
Can you comprehend this simple concept? You use "eternal life" to demonize what I believe. You are being dishonest.
Your comment following the quote of Matt 25:46 is just an opinion. What's the point of a fire being "everlasting" if everything thrown into it is totally consumed, leaving nothing left? That is irrational.
God is not irrational. His eternal fire is for eternal punishment. Punishment, BY DEFINITION, is experienced.
But your maudlin sentiments just won't let you accept the truth.
What does that matter? What do you know about figurative language?
Whatever is on fire or smoldering. Don't forget the Bible's use of figurative language.
I'm not having a problem.
Maybe a little less condescension would help you.
I am fully prayed up. I DO find your views to be irrational, since you think punishment can be inflicted on a non-person who doesn't exist.
All you have proven is your stubborn refusal to accept the FACT that the unbeliever's soul will suffer for an eternity.
Eternal shame, contempt (of self) ARE the ONLY option.
That began with Adam, when he ate the fruit. His human spirit died "on THAT day" and all humans are born with a DEAD human spirit, which is why everyone needs to be born again, or RE-generated.
There is NO punishment experienced if one doesn't exist. That's why your theory is IRRATIONAL.
Your theory is irrational.
This is irrelevant to what happens to the soul in the LOF.
You are the one with problems.
Why do you keep LYING? I have made very clear that existence in the LOF is NOT any kind of life, but you think you're so smart and keep describing what I believe from the Bible to be an "eternal life". It is literally eternal DEATH.
Can you comprehend this simple concept? You use "eternal life" to demonize what I believe. You are being dishonest.
Absolutely!! I was responding to Jackson's comment. I am enjoying your replies; very thoughtful and truthful.
Amen! I know that and appreciate your posts.
Oh I see,
I was responding to Jackson's comment too. I believe he has also been arguing against annhilation.
The quote- copy seems to have come out a bit jumbled on that series of comments.
FreeGrace2 said:
So, you DON'T want to answer my question. Why not? Why do you instead try to change the subject?
There is NO punishment for a person who no longer exists. Why can't you grasp that? Oh, right. Your maudlin sentiments keep getting in your way of accepting God's clear word.
So, you DON'T want to answer my question. Why not? Why do you instead try to change the subject?
You KNOW my question does relate to your theory. Everyone would choose to NOT FEEL punishment if given the opportunity. Everyone knows that. And that is what your irrational punishment of a non-existing soul is about.
There is NO punishment for a person who no longer exists. Why can't you grasp that? Oh, right. Your maudlin sentiments keep getting in your way of accepting God's clear word.
FreeGrace2 said:
Why are your questions so DENSE?
Why are your questions so DENSE?
Well, at least you acknowledge that your questions are dense.
Just as smoke is evidence of a substance having met with fire. It is not evidence that the substance remains but ascends into smoke.