And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Lucy-Pevensie]

NO CHANCE OF EVERY BEING LOVED BY THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY FOR ALL OF ETERNITY AS YOU NO LONGER EXIST.

NO CHANCE OF EVER SEEING THE NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH

NO CHANCE OF EVER LIVING A LIFE TO WONDERFUL FOR WORDS TO DESCRIBE

NO CHANCE OF EVER HAVING ANOTHER THOUGHT

NO CHANCE OF EVER BEING LOVED BY ANOTHER SOUL

NO CHANCE OF EVER LOVING ANOTHER SOUL

NO CHANCE OF EVER BEING KNOW BY YOUR FAMILY

NO CHANCE OF EVER DOING ANYONE ANY GOOD

COMPLETELY REMOVE YOURSELF FROM HAVING EVER EXISTED BECAUSE THAT IS THE 2ND DEATH.

AND WITH THAT THERE WILL BE NO MEMORY OF YOU AS A LIVING BEING BY A SINGLE SOUL EVER AGAIN. FOR ALL ETERNITY, YOU WILL NEVER TAKE PART IN A SINGLE THOUGHT, ACTION, OR FEELING.

YOU ARE ETERNALLY NOTHING, NO ONE, NOT EVEN A FLEETING THOUGHT.

YOU HAVE VANISHED IN EVERY RESPECT, AS IF YOU HAD NEVER BEEN BORN.

THAT IS ETERNAL DEATH OF A BODY AND SOUL IN THE LAKE OF FIRE.



NOT SOMEONE THAT IS NEVER CONSUMED, NEVER BECOMING SMOKE, NEVER GO UP FOREVER AND EVER

PAGAN RELIGION

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Lets say I cut off your arm. Until the day you die, your arm remains cut off. I don't have to KEEP cutting off your arm for every minute until you die for IT TO HAVE HAPPENED and for it to continue on and on and on.

ONCE the 'punishment' aka the 'DEATH' has taken place, DEAD you remain forever. The death is ETERNAL. Not the ACT of being killed.

The hypothetical arm is cut off once and it hurts forever. There isn't a repeated cycle of killing. No one claims that and
it isn't a biblical teaching. You lack understanding despite having been shown numerous times.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You just refuted yourself!!

While God WANTS all men to be saved, per 1 Tim 2:3-6, He certainly DOESN'T save all men. He saves only those who believe, per 1 Cor 1:21.

You have quite the imagination.

Looks like you don't even understand yourself.

God is able to save or destroy.

How come you don't understand the difference between "is able" and "will"?

[QOUTE]There aren’t any other options. [/QUOTE]
Of course there is the biblical one, the one that you reject.

What God wants and what He will do are two different things.

Why are you trying to steal my point?

 

[FreeGrace2]

what you’ve said refutes nothing. I showed you the correct way to interpret Daniel 12:2, by taking into account Isaiah 66.

Isa 66 doesn't "interpret" Dan 12:2. Where do you get that?

 

[FreeGrace2]

NO CHANCE OF EVERY BEING LOVED BY THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY FOR ALL OF ETERNITY AS YOU NO LONGER EXIST.

To any unbeliever, this is immaterial and irrelevant. Their response would be, so what? For those who "no longer exist" nothing matters.

NO CHANCE OF EVER SEEING THE NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH
NO CHANCE OF EVER LIVING A LIFE TO WONDERFUL FOR WORDS TO DESCRIBE
NO CHANCE OF EVER HAVING ANOTHER THOUGHT
NO CHANCE OF EVER BEING LOVED BY ANOTHER SOUL
NO CHANCE OF EVER LOVING ANOTHER SOUL
NO CHANCE OF EVER BEING KNOW BY YOUR FAMILY
NO CHANCE OF EVER DOING ANYONE ANY GOOD
COMPLETELY REMOVE YOURSELF FROM HAVING EVER EXISTED BECAUSE THAT IS THE 2ND DEATH.
AND WITH THAT THERE WILL BE NO MEMORY OF YOU AS A LIVING BEING BY A SINGLE SOUL EVER AGAIN. FOR ALL ETERNITY, YOU WILL NEVER TAKE PART IN A SINGLE THOUGHT, ACTION, OR FEELING.
YOU ARE ETERNALLY NOTHING, NO ONE, NOT EVEN A FLEETING THOUGHT.
YOU HAVE VANISHED IN EVERY RESPECT, AS IF YOU HAD NEVER BEEN BORN.
THAT IS ETERNAL DEATH OF A BODY AND SOUL IN THE LAKE OF FIRE.

For the unbeliever, none of this is relevant. If they no longer exist, they NO LONGER EXPERIENCE anything.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Lets say I cut off your arm. Until the day you die, your arm remains cut off. I don't have to KEEP cutting off your arm for every minute until you die for IT TO HAVE HAPPENED and for it to continue on and on and on.

ONCE the 'punishment' aka the 'DEATH' has taken place, DEAD you remain forever. The death is ETERNAL. Not the ACT of being killed.

You just keep missing the whole point about "eternal death". Eternal has no meaning or experience for one who no longer exists.

 

[kleronomos]

The hypothetical arm is cut off once and it hurts forever. There isn't a repeated cycle of killing. No one claims that and
it isn't a biblical teaching. You lack understanding despite having been shown numerous times.

I understand your belief is that EVERYONE is BORN immortal

and that

the 2nd death of the body and soul in the lake of fire ISN'T REALLY DEATH AT ALL

JUST the beginning of an eternal life in torment with their THINKING AND FEELING and KNOWLEDGE AKA LIFE now just an unescapable unchangeable unbearable existence

for having exercised their free will in the wrong way

BECAUSE that is what sounds JUST and RIGHT and HOLY to YOUR WAY OF THINKING.

I understand you ALSO disagree with what is written as to the former things being passed away

 

[Runningman]

THAT'S HOW WE KNOW IT IS GOD GIVEN and not of ourselves. I had never had that thought before. It came out of much 'persecution' of a sort.


I believe this is WHY we have to go through these long debates. Without the other side PUSHING us towards the Truth of what is written, it's hard to get there. But once learned this way, it is never forgotten. I love the ways of GOD. Isn't it funny how once it is revealed it is always so simple it's hard to believe it was missed? THAT is how I know there is so much written that I read over because God has yet to open up my eyes to the truths written there. So I remain open to constant change and growth and continue to BUILD upon the foundation, which in itself REQUIRES us to be willing to grow and expand.


So don't credit me with anything, I believe THIS is a reward given US (sometimes to you and sometimes me, but all for the body) for diligently seeking after HIS TRUTH.

The path is narrow because only WHAT IS WRITTEN is TRUTH, and for thousands of years, the wisdom of man has been taught not WHAT IS WRITTEN. It is only since the words of God were made available to the common man and then computers and the internet that it has become POSSIBLE for us to do what we are doing here. WE ARE TRULY BLESSED indeed to be living here and now and able to do this and willingly open to receive the 'latter day rain' so to speak. Not till the end times would knowledge be opened up just like the book of Daniel was closed until this time. So many people say but that wasn't what the first century church was taught and I say YEAH because GOD tells us they didn't know anything so to follow them would be stupid on our part.

BUT we can't let ourselves forget how HARD it is to let go of any strongly held belief since it is usually tied to others we don't want to let go of. BUT we must go from the MILK to the MEAT and that is a rising up that some will never be able to accomplish because of PRIDE. That first FALL is not only the hardest lesson but is also the most eye opening one. And with that I say thank you for your perseverance here. I understand how difficult it is to do and how heavily it can weigh on the soul not knowing how much is too much while not allowing false doctrine to proceed any further. May God bless you and all your studies...

Well said and may God bless you richly and abundantly. I look forward to us discussing more in the future.

 

[kleronomos]

It is written

AND DEATH NOT WILL BE ANY LONGER

making an 'eternal death' IMPOSSIBLE in yet another way

 

[Jackson123]

NO CHANCE OF EVERY BEING LOVED BY THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY FOR ALL OF ETERNITY AS YOU NO LONGER EXIST.

NO CHANCE OF EVER SEEING THE NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH

NO CHANCE OF EVER LIVING A LIFE TO WONDERFUL FOR WORDS TO DESCRIBE

NO CHANCE OF EVER HAVING ANOTHER THOUGHT

NO CHANCE OF EVER BEING LOVED BY ANOTHER SOUL

NO CHANCE OF EVER LOVING ANOTHER SOUL

NO CHANCE OF EVER BEING KNOW BY YOUR FAMILY

NO CHANCE OF EVER DOING ANYONE ANY GOOD

COMPLETELY REMOVE YOURSELF FROM HAVING EVER EXISTED BECAUSE THAT IS THE 2ND DEATH.

AND WITH THAT THERE WILL BE NO MEMORY OF YOU AS A LIVING BEING BY A SINGLE SOUL EVER AGAIN. FOR ALL ETERNITY, YOU WILL NEVER TAKE PART IN A SINGLE THOUGHT, ACTION, OR FEELING.

YOU ARE ETERNALLY NOTHING, NO ONE, NOT EVEN A FLEETING THOUGHT.

YOU HAVE VANISHED IN EVERY RESPECT, AS IF YOU HAD NEVER BEEN BORN.

THAT IS ETERNAL DEATH OF A BODY AND SOUL IN THE LAKE OF FIRE.



NOT SOMEONE THAT IS NEVER CONSUMED, NEVER BECOMING SMOKE, NEVER GO UP FOREVER AND EVER

jesus say eternal punishment, day and night, so you accused Jesus lie?

 

[Jackson123]

This isn’t a SDA doctrine. This is what the Bible says my friend. The eternal punished is that they are dead. Not sure how else to make that clearer. You’ve been shown the Bible, now you’re free to believe whatever you want.

Eternal, > never ending

punishment > involve pain

i don’t know how I make clear more

check your bible and use online dictionary to know what is the definition of punishment

 

[Runningman]

Eternal, > never ending

punishment > involve pain

i don’t know how I make clear more

check your bible and use online dictionary to know what is the definition of punishment

Partially correct.

Revelation 2:11
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

The second death will hurt temporarily. As you can see the hurt (pain) and the death are two separate things.

 

[Jackson123]

Partially correct.

Revelation 2:11
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

The second death will hurt temporarily. As you can see the hurt (pain) and the death are two separate things.

Give me a verse that say second death hurt temporarily

 

[kleronomos]

And He will wipe away


1813. exaleiphó ►
Strong's Concordance
exaleiphó: to wipe out, erase, obliterate
Original Word: ἐξαλείφω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: exaleiphó
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-al-i'-fo)
Definition: to wipe out, erase, obliterate
Usage: I plaster, wash over; I wipe off, wipe out, obliterate.
HELPS Word-studies
1813 eksaleíphō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 218 /aleíphō, "smear") – properly, to rub (smear) out, i.e. completely remove (wipe away); obliterate; remove totally from a previous state with the outcome of being blotted out (erased).

[1813 (eksaleíphō) originally meant, "to plaster, rub smooth, or whitewash." Later it referred to "wiping out" in the sense of "to cancel" (rubbing out a writing or seal impression left on a wax tablet). Thus 1813 (eksaleíphō) was used for canceling obligations or entitlements (extended benefits or liabilities).]


every tear from the eyes of them


and death NOT will be any longer

1510. eimi ►
Strong's Concordance
eimi: I exist, I am
Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eimi
Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee')
Definition: I exist, I am
Usage: I am, exist.

1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).


nor mourning nor crying nor pain

NOT they will be any longer

1510. eimi ►
Strong's Concordance
eimi: I exist, I am
Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eimi
Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee')
Definition: I exist, I am
Usage: I am, exist.

1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).




BECAUSE THE FORMER
4413. prótos ►
Strong's Concordance
prótos: first, chief
Original Word: πρῶτος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prótos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro'-tos)
Definition: first, chief
Usage: first, before, principal, most important.
HELPS Word-studies
4413 prṓtos (an adjective, derived from 4253 /pró, "before, forward") – first (foremost). 4413 /prṓtos ("first, foremost") is the superlative form of 4253 /pró ("before") meaning "what comes first" (is "number one").



THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY

565. aperchomai ►
Strong's Concordance
aperchomai: to go away, go after
Original Word: ἀπέρχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: aperchomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-erkh'-om-ahee)
Definition: to go away, go after
Usage: I come or go away from, depart, return, arrive, go after, follow.


2. tropically: of departing evils and sufferings, Mark 1:42; Luke 5:13 (ἡ λέπρα ἀπῆλθεν ἀπ' αὐτοῦ); Revelation 9:12; Revelation 11:14; of good things taken away from one, Revelation 18:14 (R G); of an evanescent state of things, Revelation 21:1 (Rec. παρῆλθε), 4; of a report going forth or spread εἰς, Matthew 4:24 (Treg. marginal reading ἐξῆλθεν).

 

[Runningman]

It is written

AND DEATH NOT WILL BE ANY LONGER

making an 'eternal death' IMPOSSIBLE in yet another way

Revelation 21:1-4 KJV
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I believe the vision John had was of something literal that's coming to us later time in the future. There was death, sorrow, crying, and pain before, but after the New Heavens and New Earth come into effect all of the former things have passed away. That means the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" will not be in existence.

We have a lot of amazing things to look forward to. The New Heavens and New Earth are going to be greater than words can describe I'm sure.

 

[Jackson123]

Revelation 21:1-4 KJV
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I believe the vision John had was of something literal that's coming to us later time in the future. There was death, sorrow, crying, and pain before, but after the New Heavens and New Earth come into effect all of the former things have passed away. That means the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" will not be in existence.

We have a lot of amazing things to look forward to. The New Heavens and New Earth are going to be greater than words can describe I'm sure.

John see heaven in this vision not hell, hell in another vision

 

[Jackson123]

And He will wipe away


1813. exaleiphó ►
Strong's Concordance
exaleiphó: to wipe out, erase, obliterate
Original Word: ἐξαλείφω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: exaleiphó
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-al-i'-fo)
Definition: to wipe out, erase, obliterate
Usage: I plaster, wash over; I wipe off, wipe out, obliterate.
HELPS Word-studies
1813 eksaleíphō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 218 /aleíphō, "smear") – properly, to rub (smear) out, i.e. completely remove (wipe away); obliterate; remove totally from a previous state with the outcome of being blotted out (erased).

[1813 (eksaleíphō) originally meant, "to plaster, rub smooth, or whitewash." Later it referred to "wiping out" in the sense of "to cancel" (rubbing out a writing or seal impression left on a wax tablet). Thus 1813 (eksaleíphō) was used for canceling obligations or entitlements (extended benefits or liabilities).]


every tear from the eyes of them


and death NOT will be any longer

1510. eimi ►
Strong's Concordance
eimi: I exist, I am
Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eimi
Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee')
Definition: I exist, I am
Usage: I am, exist.

1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).


nor mourning nor crying nor pain

NOT they will be any longer

1510. eimi ►
Strong's Concordance
eimi: I exist, I am
Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eimi
Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee')
Definition: I exist, I am
Usage: I am, exist.

1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).




BECAUSE THE FORMER
4413. prótos ►
Strong's Concordance
prótos: first, chief
Original Word: πρῶτος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prótos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro'-tos)
Definition: first, chief
Usage: first, before, principal, most important.
HELPS Word-studies
4413 prṓtos (an adjective, derived from 4253 /pró, "before, forward") – first (foremost). 4413 /prṓtos ("first, foremost") is the superlative form of 4253 /pró ("before") meaning "what comes first" (is "number one").



THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY

565. aperchomai ►
Strong's Concordance
aperchomai: to go away, go after
Original Word: ἀπέρχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: aperchomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-erkh'-om-ahee)
Definition: to go away, go after
Usage: I come or go away from, depart, return, arrive, go after, follow.


2. tropically: of departing evils and sufferings, Mark 1:42; Luke 5:13 (ἡ λέπρα ἀπῆλθεν ἀπ' αὐτοῦ); Revelation 9:12; Revelation 11:14; of good things taken away from one, Revelation 18:14 (R G); of an evanescent state of things, Revelation 21:1 (Rec. παρῆλθε), 4; of a report going forth or spread εἰς, Matthew 4:24 (Treg. marginal reading ἐξῆλθεν).

What verse?

 

[Runningman]

John see heaven in this vision not hell, hell in another vision

Where do you think hell is?

 

[kleronomos]

Revelation 21:1-4 KJV
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I believe the vision John had was of something literal that's come to us later in the future. There was death, sorrow, crying, and pain before, but after the New Heavens and New Earth come into effect all of the former things have passed away. That means the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" will not be in existence.

I am sure you ask yourself the same question as to why WOULD GOD want anything thing evil wicked mean or nasty to be a part of the NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH? What would a 'reminder' of those who aren't worthy SERVE? It's not like we could learn anything from them. It's not like there is anything they would contribute. WE won't even REMEMBER them and God wont think on them so WHAT PURPOSE COULD IT SERVE?

There is an huge difference between Justice and Torture. One comes from Righteousness the other comes from EVIL. God is Holy and Righteous and those who believe HE WOULD DO THAT don't understand God in the least little bit.


I think this sums it up best
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


They fight FOR THE LETTER of what is written to be true, while we fight for the SPIRIT of what is written as the Truth.

 

[kleronomos]

What verse?

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.