God is Your Father

[Aaron56]

The common point of view in religious circles is that you are, and you will always be, no more than a “sinner saved by grace.” That point of view is designed to motivate you to feel grateful for the salvation that you once received and motivated by the sense of guilt that so much was given to you. You are then taught that everything you respond with is less than what is actually required of you. That mentality makes you always a debtor and it is projection of a false humility.

From that point, you can never fully enter into the expectation from God, of God being who God is. It is quite sad actually because most people tend to think that the greatest experience of God’s goodness ended at the point where you were saved. That is: Jesus died on the cross to save you and once you have gotten that—you are not going to hell, you are going to heaven—then everything beyond that is how you somehow show your gratitude for that. And so in a sense, from the point where you are saved, every expectation of the goodness of God is behind you with maybe the only exception being: eventually you’ll die and go to heaven.

Well when you begin to see and to understand and believe that you are a child of God, the experience of salvation—rather than that which becomes your memory and then that which motivates you to be grateful and to show your gratitude in terms of obeying what church leaders set out as the indication of your gratitude—you begin to see that that’s just what you were born into. That you were born into a family in which God is your Father and because God is your Father this whole way of life that is called “Christian,” is what is to result from the fact that God is your Father. You begin to see all manner of things changing right away, after that.

For example, you anticipate that God will supply your needs according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus for no reason other than He is your Father. Philippians 4:19 “And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.” See, the gospel, the gospel of the kingdom, is based in the centrality of the goodness of God, that God’s nature is that which it is, and because God’s nature is good, you are secured in who God is, not because you have done righteous works or you continue to do things that are expected of you. God didn’t save you by works of righteousness, He saved you by His mercy and He disciplines and trains whomever He has received as a son for the purpose that you might share in his glory.

This is this purpose for which you were born again. So the notion that you are no more than a “sinner saved by grace” is, to say the least, very childish. It is where you used to be before you were saved, and it is what you came to be the day you were saved but if you have been saved for any length of time, that should not be how your relationship to God, it’s foundation, and it should not be how it is characterized. Your relationship to God should be: He is my Father. And just like if I had children and my children asked me for bread I wouldn’t give them a stone. If they asked me for fish I wouldn’t give them a serpent. “‘Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!’”

In other words, if they asked me for the things for which they have a need on a daily basis, because I, even as a human, because I love them I will give them the things they need. What will God do? Because God loves you, He will in fact have mercy on you and He will in fact be kind to you. That’s just who God is. Now that is the mercy of God, and you can rely absolutely on the mercy of God. It is more than that you are such a wretched sinner that God takes pity on you. God created mankind with the intention of making them His sons. Now the end of this matter is all about how God desires to have a relationship with you. And this relationship is not going to end at any point in time, nor is this relationship going to remain static. This relationship is going to increase and increase and increase, in intimacy, in fellowship, in purpose, in closeness. Not only in this age, but in the coming ages.

Grace and Peace

 

[Aaron56]

Wow. This took hours to approve and got buried.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
God is the father of the human race per Gen 1:26-27 similar to how Jubal
was the father of all who play the harp and flute. (Gen 4:21)

However, God is a parent to relatively few.

• John 1:12-13 . .To those who believed in his name, he gave the right to
become children of God-- children born not of natural descent, nor of human
decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
_

 

[posthuman]

So the notion that you are no more than a “sinner saved by grace” is, to say the least, very childish.

i don't disagree with the overall gist of what you have written, but why did Paul say this, then?

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, ​

that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. ​

(1 Timothy 1:15) ​

​

note that it's "i am chief" -- present, indicative active tense -- not "i was" past tense

i patiently await the redemption of my body with great anticipation, and i need Him every hour

 

[JaumeJ]

To Paul's comment, me too!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The common point of view in religious circles is that you are, and you will always be, no more than a “sinner saved by grace.” That point of view is designed to motivate you to feel grateful for the salvation that you once received and motivated by the sense of guilt that so much was given to you. You are then taught that everything you respond with is less than what is actually required of you. That mentality makes you always a debtor and it is projection of a false humility.

Grace and Peace

“That mentality makes you always a debtor and it is projection of a false humility.”

I like the post as usual brother but we are debters that’s not an improper way to see it

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-

We owe a debt , we owe our souls to him that suffered and bled to purchase us.

“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:19-20‬ ‭

And sorrow because we sinned is an appropriate response to someone with a Christian spirit it’s what teaches us to repent

“Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭7:9-11‬ ‭

when we have sinned and are made aware of it this should bring us sorrow and we should accept that we’ve fallen short again , and this should bring guilt and sorrow because that is what leads a person to repent and teaches us not to do those things again because of the terrible feeling that comes with it

before Christ were free of righteousness we sin and in most cases we don’t even think twice about it , Christian’s as we hear The gospel start to see ourselves in the light and realize we have some changes we need to make

Jesus death is a wonder on one hand it’s the saddest event one could imagine his suffering and shame the torture he was out through his agony and on the other hand it is the most glorious thing in mankind’s history what Jesus did for us

if we keep sinning freely and not accepting the guilt and sorrow that leads us to repent of sin if we don’t follow the repentance ta like we’re placing Jesus on the cross , just so we can keep being and have a sacrifice I know that sounds pretty out there but it’s what the scriptures say

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we don’t allow for the Guilt and sorrow when we sin to teach us about repentance , it’s way to willfully continue and ends up wearing our conscience nt hat when we sin well we have a built in excuse that we don’t need to even acknolwedge we sinned

“Jesus died I’m saved “ becomes the mentality nothing else applies “ the “word grace is salvation “ if we look at this like Christ redeemed us ( purchased condemned slaves and freed them ) then there’s no other place to be but we owe God all of Our selves our lives , because truthfully we do owe him everything

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭

These types of things aren’t there to condemn us but to save us and teach us repentance . If we believe Jesus and become his disciples that’s here the power to become Gods children is

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Repentance is so important because of this truth

“In this the children of God are manifest,

and the children of the devil:


whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we discuss this imputation of righteousness alot as if it doesn’t change our actions but is just God saying “your righteous even though your actions aren’t “

“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Sin is the devils work , things like this are mostly categorically rejected , but when we start acknowledging these hard truths it brings that godly sorrow d ads believers to repent because they become aware of the truth that we can’t just say we’re saved and continue in sin

with this realization is not a happy and great feeling and we can’t just imagine ourselves into repentance but the season of Godly sorro promises in the ot comes which is what leads us to actually change our deeds

anyways brother I liked the read lots of good thinking in there

 

[CS1]

i don't disagree with the overall gist of what you have written, but why did Paul say this, then?

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, ​

that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. ​

(1 Timothy 1:15) ​

​

note that it's "i am chief" -- present, indicative active tense -- not "i was" past tense

i patiently await the redemption of my body with great anticipation, and i need Him every hour

Yes, he was however, What Paul remembers of himself and said this but the context is much sooner


13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners,

Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Paul has not forgotten what he did in the flesh yet his boast is in Christ who HE remembers Pauls's sin no more.

 

[EricPH]

Could God the Father love each and everyone of us as he loves himself?

Jesus died for us, does that mean he loves us as he loves himself?

 

[Aaron56]

i don't disagree with the overall gist of what you have written, but why did Paul say this, then?

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, ​

that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. ​

(1 Timothy 1:15) ​

​

note that it's "i am chief" -- present, indicative active tense -- not "i was" past tense

i patiently await the redemption of my body with great anticipation, and i need Him every hour

Much can be explained by the words I wrote: “So the notion that you are no more than a “sinner saved by grace” is, to say the least, very childish.”

It’s not that we are not sinners, it’s that when we say we are no more than sinners saved by grace we misrepresent the work of Christ in salavation. In Christ the core of our being changes: from dead in our sins to alive in Him. His Spirit in us becomes our conscience, the framework on which He builds us. We are then children of God with His Spirit alive in us.

 

[Aaron56]

“That mentality makes you always a debtor and it is projection of a false humility.”

I like the post as usual brother but we are debters that’s not an improper way to see it

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-

We owe a debt , we owe our souls to him that suffered and bled to purchase us.

“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:19-20‬ ‭

And sorrow because we sinned is an appropriate response to someone with a Christian spirit it’s what teaches us to repent

“Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭7:9-11‬ ‭

when we have sinned and are made aware of it this should bring us sorrow and we should accept that we’ve fallen short again , and this should bring guilt and sorrow because that is what leads a person to repent and teaches us not to do those things again because of the terrible feeling that comes with it

before Christ were free of righteousness we sin and in most cases we don’t even think twice about it , Christian’s as we hear The gospel start to see ourselves in the light and realize we have some changes we need to make

Jesus death is a wonder on one hand it’s the saddest event one could imagine his suffering and shame the torture he was out through his agony and on the other hand it is the most glorious thing in mankind’s history what Jesus did for us

if we keep sinning freely and not accepting the guilt and sorrow that leads us to repent of sin if we don’t follow the repentance ta like we’re placing Jesus on the cross , just so we can keep being and have a sacrifice I know that sounds pretty out there but it’s what the scriptures say

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we don’t allow for the Guilt and sorrow when we sin to teach us about repentance , it’s way to willfully continue and ends up wearing our conscience nt hat when we sin well we have a built in excuse that we don’t need to even acknolwedge we sinned

“Jesus died I’m saved “ becomes the mentality nothing else applies “ the “word grace is salvation “ if we look at this like Christ redeemed us ( purchased condemned slaves and freed them ) then there’s no other place to be but we owe God all of Our selves our lives , because truthfully we do owe him everything

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭

These types of things aren’t there to condemn us but to save us and teach us repentance . If we believe Jesus and become his disciples that’s here the power to become Gods children is

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Repentance is so important because of this truth

“In this the children of God are manifest,

and the children of the devil:


whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we discuss this imputation of righteousness alot as if it doesn’t change our actions but is just God saying “your righteous even though your actions aren’t “

“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Sin is the devils work , things like this are mostly categorically rejected , but when we start acknowledging these hard truths it brings that godly sorrow d ads believers to repent because they become aware of the truth that we can’t just say we’re saved and continue in sin

with this realization is not a happy and great feeling and we can’t just imagine ourselves into repentance but the season of Godly sorro promises in the ot comes which is what leads us to actually change our deeds

anyways brother I liked the read lots of good thinking in there

This is an expose of the process of maturing in Christ: once we are redeemed how then are we to walk. I was addressing identity at our core and the practice of misrepresenting the transformation of our lives in Christ. The promise of salvation is not that we will not sin, that is a consequence of maturing as we walk with God. The promise is that once in Christ the Son, God the Father regards us as His children and that He will see to it that we are equipped for every stage of the journey.

 

[Runningman]

The common point of view in religious circles is that you are, and you will always be, no more than a “sinner saved by grace.” That point of view is designed to motivate you to feel grateful for the salvation that you once received and motivated by the sense of guilt that so much was given to you. You are then taught that everything you respond with is less than what is actually required of you. That mentality makes you always a debtor and it is projection of a false humility.

From that point, you can never fully enter into the expectation from God, of God being who God is. It is quite sad actually because most people tend to think that the greatest experience of God’s goodness ended at the point where you were saved. That is: Jesus died on the cross to save you and once you have gotten that—you are not going to hell, you are going to heaven—then everything beyond that is how you somehow show your gratitude for that. And so in a sense, from the point where you are saved, every expectation of the goodness of God is behind you with maybe the only exception being: eventually you’ll die and go to heaven.

Well when you begin to see and to understand and believe that you are a child of God, the experience of salvation—rather than that which becomes your memory and then that which motivates you to be grateful and to show your gratitude in terms of obeying what church leaders set out as the indication of your gratitude—you begin to see that that’s just what you were born into. That you were born into a family in which God is your Father and because God is your Father this whole way of life that is called “Christian,” is what is to result from the fact that God is your Father. You begin to see all manner of things changing right away, after that.

For example, you anticipate that God will supply your needs according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus for no reason other than He is your Father. Philippians 4:19 “And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.” See, the gospel, the gospel of the kingdom, is based in the centrality of the goodness of God, that God’s nature is that which it is, and because God’s nature is good, you are secured in who God is, not because you have done righteous works or you continue to do things that are expected of you. God didn’t save you by works of righteousness, He saved you by His mercy and He disciplines and trains whomever He has received as a son for the purpose that you might share in his glory.

This is this purpose for which you were born again. So the notion that you are no more than a “sinner saved by grace” is, to say the least, very childish. It is where you used to be before you were saved, and it is what you came to be the day you were saved but if you have been saved for any length of time, that should not be how your relationship to God, it’s foundation, and it should not be how it is characterized. Your relationship to God should be: He is my Father. And just like if I had children and my children asked me for bread I wouldn’t give them a stone. If they asked me for fish I wouldn’t give them a serpent. “‘Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!’”

In other words, if they asked me for the things for which they have a need on a daily basis, because I, even as a human, because I love them I will give them the things they need. What will God do? Because God loves you, He will in fact have mercy on you and He will in fact be kind to you. That’s just who God is. Now that is the mercy of God, and you can rely absolutely on the mercy of God. It is more than that you are such a wretched sinner that God takes pity on you. God created mankind with the intention of making them His sons. Now the end of this matter is all about how God desires to have a relationship with you. And this relationship is not going to end at any point in time, nor is this relationship going to remain static. This relationship is going to increase and increase and increase, in intimacy, in fellowship, in purpose, in closeness. Not only in this age, but in the coming ages.

Grace and Peace

I’ve felt inspired about the image of God lately. I was thinking about outreach to unsaved and saved people while I was reading your OP. Very nicely written and it’s very interesting.

So what I was thinking is that even unsaved sinners have a soul that is made in God’s image. What God created He said is very good. The problem is the sin. I think we can tell people that they are more than just a sinner saved by God’s grace, but actually there is something very good about the soul God created for them and that, in essence, is part of who they are as a person.

I’m reminded of Paul who said in Romans 7 that with his body he serves the law of sin, but in his inner being he delights in God’s law.

There is certainly a difference between a human flesh body that serves sin and a soul that serves sin.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This is an expose of the process of maturing in Christ: once we are redeemed how then are we to walk. I was addressing identity at our core and the practice of misrepresenting the transformation of our lives in Christ. The promise of salvation is not that we will not sin, that is a consequence of maturing as we walk with God. The promise is that once in Christ the Son, God the Father regards us as His children and that He will see to it that we are equipped for every stage of the journey.

“This is an expose of the process of maturing in Christ: once we are redeemed how then are we to walk. I was addressing identity at our core and the practice of misrepresenting the transformation of our lives in Christ”

yes the process of maturing needs us to accept what we learn when I say “we are debtors “ thats the mature mind of Paul the apostle telling the church. Those understandings move us from the idea “ we don’t owe anyone anything , we don’t need to do anything we’re saved already no change required “

we come to the Bible thinking like men we learn how to think like Gods children, they understand we are debtors and owe a continuing debt

the debt we owe is this one

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Instead of us looking at the cross as of it only applies to our own salvstion we can find that debt and reason we’re happy to pay it

“Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬

as we take truths of scripture in and don’t reject the things we learn that is what matures us eventually will find ourselves where the rubber meets the road

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭

maturing in Christ is like maturing in life your little and have to learn lessons from the father as we get older we learn those lessons and this mature us in mind immaturity is just a lack of understanding , the answer is to accept what we learn like a child learning later to y become a teen and need to learn bigger more mature responsibility lessons then adulthood still learning more lessons and applying them

I like your post I was just saying we actually are debtors so it’s not the wrong way to see it be it doesn’t form some obstacle or anything to accept that we are debtors is one of the things trust teaches us to act rather than just saying things and thinking that makes us righteous

we need to learn the gospel part of that is about what we do or don’t do it’s about accountability , responsibility , this is for maturing a mind in Christ

babes grasp this

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those babes then hear this

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they can accept this as they have John 3:16 and adding that knowledge is going to cause them to mature in understanding which is where maturity is needed the better we understand the things that are written the more mature we will become

as we reject things we don’t like hearing in the Bible that’s a sign of immaturity it’s like telling a 5 year old to do a calculus problem thier mknd isn’t ready they have to first learn what numbers are and what addition and subtraction is ect

the process of maturing is for us to hear consistently the gospel and make the decision to accept what it says and let that conform our own mind to a mature child of God

to be clear babes aren’t lost , they just need to eventually accept the reality of adulthood before they can ever come to a mature state this type of thing causes maturity

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭

it’s a reality check for when we start thinking our deeds don’t matter anymore as we mature we come to reality and truth about good and evil and how it relates to our own deeds

your right God is the Father , we mature when we start listening to him and learning from him

“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Maturity is found in his doctrine part of it teaches us he’s our heavenly father and equally heavenly teaching his children and raising us in maturity as we are willing to hear and believe the gospel

 

[tourist]

To Paul's comment, me too!

Me three.

 

[posthuman]

There is certainly a difference between a human flesh body that serves sin and a soul that serves sin.

​

He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. ​

(John 3:18-19)​

​

is it the soul or is it the flesh that has belief or unbelief, and love, whether for light or for darkness?
are love & belief physical properties or non-physical properties?

certainly it's the soul that believes, and that loves -- this is what must be changed, and the body will follow as it is brought under control =]

 

[Dirtman]

There is always a ditch on both sides of the road.
While we should be confident in the promises of God our Father, we should also be ever mindful that we are sinners and that it is by his grace that it is so.

 

[Aaron56]

“This is an expose of the process of maturing in Christ: once we are redeemed how then are we to walk. I was addressing identity at our core and the practice of misrepresenting the transformation of our lives in Christ”

yes the process of maturing needs us to accept what we learn when I say “we are debtors “ thats the mature mind of Paul the apostle telling the church. Those understandings move us from the idea “ we don’t owe anyone anything , we don’t need to do anything we’re saved already no change required “

we come to the Bible thinking like men we learn how to think like Gods children, they understand we are debtors and owe a continuing debt

the debt we owe is this one

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Instead of us looking at the cross as of it only applies to our own salvstion we can find that debt and reason we’re happy to pay it

“Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬

as we take truths of scripture in and don’t reject the things we learn that is what matures us eventually will find ourselves where the rubber meets the road

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭

maturing in Christ is like maturing in life your little and have to learn lessons from the father as we get older we learn those lessons and this mature us in mind immaturity is just a lack of understanding , the answer is to accept what we learn like a child learning later to y become a teen and need to learn bigger more mature responsibility lessons then adulthood still learning more lessons and applying them

I like your post I was just saying we actually are debtors so it’s not the wrong way to see it be it doesn’t form some obstacle or anything to accept that we are debtors is one of the things trust teaches us to act rather than just saying things and thinking that makes us righteous

we need to learn the gospel part of that is about what we do or don’t do it’s about accountability , responsibility , this is for maturing a mind in Christ

babes grasp this

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those babes then hear this

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they can accept this as they have John 3:16 and adding that knowledge is going to cause them to mature in understanding which is where maturity is needed the better we understand the things that are written the more mature we will become

as we reject things we don’t like hearing in the Bible that’s a sign of immaturity it’s like telling a 5 year old to do a calculus problem thier mknd isn’t ready they have to first learn what numbers are and what addition and subtraction is ect

the process of maturing is for us to hear consistently the gospel and make the decision to accept what it says and let that conform our own mind to a mature child of God

to be clear babes aren’t lost , they just need to eventually accept the reality of adulthood before they can ever come to a mature state this type of thing causes maturity

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭

it’s a reality check for when we start thinking our deeds don’t matter anymore as we mature we come to reality and truth about good and evil and how it relates to our own deeds

your right God is the Father , we mature when we start listening to him and learning from him

“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Maturity is found in his doctrine part of it teaches us he’s our heavenly father and equally heavenly teaching his children and raising us in maturity as we are willing to hear and believe the gospel

Oh sure!

I’m just keeping the train going down the tracks.

We are not debtors to the sin nature: like we are under the law again. We owe it to God, in faith, in laying down our own lives, to be conformed to the standard of Christ. This is the process of being living sacrifices for God to live through.

I was thinking of my own children who, when they were young, needed correction but never asked for it. Because I loved them I always brought correction into their lives. Now that they are older (in their 20s) they come to me readily so that I might test their own thoughts or plans. They know, even if I do not agree with them, that I will always tell them the truth in love. And they are eager to change their plans (repent) once the hear a better way.

Now, as my children, they never owed me anything. Their very lives occurred because of the covenant between me and my wife. It’s because of who we are (their mother and I) that they were born into a house of peace and good order in increasing measure. We always ensured they had a life fully equipped for any part of the journey. But as they got older, and after they with consistent use of the wisdom I imparted, they willingly submitted to my counsel. This was their choice. Not a demand I put on them as my children.

God, in this same way, raises us (although much more perfectly). If we present ourselves (this is our willful participation) as living sacrifices to God, He will renew our minds and we will, through our own lives, prove what is good and acceptable. We may only do this as His children. And, because He is our perfect Father, the outcome of our submission to Him is assured to be perfect and good.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Oh sure!

I’m just keeping the train going down the tracks.

We are not debtors to the sin nature: like we are under the law again. We owe it to God, in faith, in laying down our own lives, to be conformed to the standard of Christ. This is the process of being living sacrifices for God to live through.

I was thinking of my own children who, when they were young, needed correction but never asked for it. Because I loved them I always brought correction into their lives. Now that they are older (in their 20s) they come to me readily so that I might test their own thoughts or plans. They know, even if I do not agree with them, that I will always tell them the truth in love. And they are eager to change their plans (repent) once the hear a better way.

Now, as my children, they never owed me anything. Their very lives occurred because of the covenant between me and my wife. It’s because of who we are (their mother and I) that they were born into a house of peace and good order in increasing measure. We always ensured they had a life fully equipped for any part of the journey. But as they got older, and after they with consistent use of the wisdom I imparted, they willingly submitted to my counsel. This was their choice. Not a demand I put on them as my children.

God, in this same way, raises us (although much more perfectly). If we present ourselves (this is our willful participation) as living sacrifices to God, He will renew our minds and we will, through our own lives, prove what is good and acceptable. We may only do this as His children. And, because He is our perfect Father, the outcome our submission to Him is assured to be perfect and good.

I’m so blessed since I’ve met you and a few others on this forum , just interacting and reading some of the things you guys post is just like it fills little holes in me in my heart and understanding of things I know , have learned over the years in life experience and also study and prayer

but interacting with some of you particularly just fills in little spaces that connect some of those things I knew , but better understand now through interacting with some of the wisdom here

your truly appreciated brother Aaron I always read even if I don’t comment and always try to be open to letting some of what you are saying and pointing to , with some of what I know also

I truly think and feel and see just brief glimpses of this here

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you have such a wonderful humble and also wise spirit brother God bless your cup that runneth over

 

[Aaron56]

I’m so blessed since I’ve met you and a few others on this forum , just interacting and reading some of the things you guys post is just like it fills little holes in me in my heart and understanding of things I know , have learned over the years in life experience and also study and prayer

but interacting with some of you particularly just fills in little spaces that connect some of those things I knew , but better understand now through interacting with some of the wisdom here

your truly appreciated brother Aaron I always read even if I don’t comment and always try to be open to letting some of what you are saying and pointing to , with some of what I know also

I truly think and feel and see just brief glimpses of this here

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you have such a wonderful humble and also wise spirit brother God bless your cup that runneth over

I love you my brother.

And I concur. Sometimes when I read what you and others post it’s like I can feel my spirit take a deep breath. I suppose if I were still in the womb I would leap or at least wiggle with excitement.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I love you my brother.

And I concur. Sometimes when I read what you and others post it’s like I can feel my spirit take a deep breath. I suppose if I were still in the womb I would leap or at least wiggle with excitement.

haha it’s funny because your references when you discuss and explain always go back to some biblical ideas or scripture (like jumping in the womb !! ) lol I love that it shows what written on your heart and comes out of your mouth

I love you too brother in Christ and appreciate the time you spend sharing and putting together well structured thoughts with such a good and well intended spirit always beneficial in some way

 

[Bluesproverb]

Wow. This took hours to approve and got buried.

Not anymore.😉🕊️💕

God blesses you.[hug]