The Plan of salvation.
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Why should 'our will' be to go to Great Lengths to "Change" meanings of
"His [God's] Plain And Clear Words"???
Of course, Most are such a Great BIG 'hurry' to "get out their truth," Correct?
I personally use the 'Preview' about 100 times More than 'Post reply'
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Did "Jesus DIE for ALL," or just some?:
Joh_3:16
"For God so Loved the world, that He gave His only begotten SON, that
whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
1Co_15:3 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,
how that Christ DIED for our sins according to the Scriptures;" Only US?
1Jn 2:2
"And He Is THE Propitiation for our sins: and NOT for ours only, BUT
Also for the sins of the whole world." Surely, NOT "the WHOLE world"?
Please show HOLY SCRIPTURE that "the WHOLE world" = ONLY the 'elect'?
+
Please show TRUTHFUL SCRIPTURE that "whosoever" is 'only some'?
2Co_5:15
"And that He DIED For ALL, that they which live should not henceforth live
unto themselves, but unto Him Which DIED for them, and Rose again.
1Pe 3:18
"For Christ also Hath Once Suffered for sins, The Just for the unjust,
that He might bring us to God, being put to DEATH in the flesh, but
Quickened by The Spirit:" ONLY SOME of "the unjust"???
2Co_5:14 "For the Love of Christ Constraineth us; because we
thus judge, that if One DIED for All, then were All dead:"
Wait! Only some were "dead"? Isn't that nonsense? ALL = Perfect SENSE!
2Pe_3:9 "The LORD Is not slack concerning His Promise, as some men
count slackness; but Is Longsuffering to us-ward, Not Willing that
"CHRIST DIED For ALL!" Amen?
GRACE And Peace...
"His [God's] Plain And Clear Words"???
Of course, Most are such a Great BIG 'hurry' to "get out their truth," Correct?
I personally use the 'Preview' about 100 times More than 'Post reply'
---------------------------------------
Did "Jesus DIE for ALL," or just some?:
Joh_3:16
"For God so Loved the world, that He gave His only begotten SON, that
whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
1Co_15:3 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,
how that Christ DIED for our sins according to the Scriptures;" Only US?
1Jn 2:2
"And He Is THE Propitiation for our sins: and NOT for ours only, BUT
Also for the sins of the whole world." Surely, NOT "the WHOLE world"?
Please show HOLY SCRIPTURE that "the WHOLE world" = ONLY the 'elect'?
+
Please show TRUTHFUL SCRIPTURE that "whosoever" is 'only some'?
2Co_5:15
"And that He DIED For ALL, that they which live should not henceforth live
unto themselves, but unto Him Which DIED for them, and Rose again.
1Pe 3:18
"For Christ also Hath Once Suffered for sins, The Just for the unjust,
that He might bring us to God, being put to DEATH in the flesh, but
Quickened by The Spirit:" ONLY SOME of "the unjust"???
2Co_5:14 "For the Love of Christ Constraineth us; because we
thus judge, that if One DIED for All, then were All dead:"
Wait! Only some were "dead"? Isn't that nonsense? ALL = Perfect SENSE!
2Pe_3:9 "The LORD Is not slack concerning His Promise, as some men
count slackness; but Is Longsuffering to us-ward, Not Willing that
ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance!"
"CHRIST DIED For ALL!" Amen?
GRACE And Peace...
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so it’s sometring your perceiving and. Or something I’ve ever said I totally disagree with it I mean with the conclusion your attributing to me this I mean
“you imply Paul's perspective is allowed to interpolate that of Christ”
I totally disagree with Paul being allowed to “ interpolate “ that of Christ
I don’t even know what “ interpolate “ means lol let me see real quick ok so this is the definition I find
“insert (something of a different nature) into something else.”
I don’t think Paul or anyone else has the right to do that so your conclusion of what I’m saying is way off, can you go and wuote why I said that’s brought you to this conclusion ?
Jesus is the Lord , the apostles are his 12 chosen and appointed witnesses his servants and fellow workers in The kingdom of Jesus Christ
Jesus has twelve thrones at his side , for certain 12 men that he has appointed. This is the twelve men Jesus appointed for this purpose
Consider this
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
John 16:12-15 KJV
How did God accomplish building his church after Jesus left the earth ?
he appointed twelve apostles , to set forth the understanding hat was meant to come out of the things jesus said, those things we can’t understand until we receive the Holy Spirit Jesus spoke about.
the apostles teachings are Jesus continuing to explain things to the church through his twelve chosen and appointed apostles
I say all this because my position on Paul is that he is an apostle one of the twelve men Jesus chose and appointed on earth to plant the church and witness the gospel like he commissioned them to do
I don’t even understand your complaint brother or why you have come to a conclusion such as that
this is Paul and what I believe his place is and also his reward
“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;”
Romans 1:1, 3 KJV
And just like Peter And the others
“Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
according as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
2 Peter 1:1-4
the apostles were revealing opening up thkngs jesus was teaching them later by his spirit in the gospel they were carrying into the nations they were just his servants but also look at thier reward
“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Matthew 19:28 KJV
(the new earth )
and Paul is one of those , not Judas who was present then leaving one empty throne , but he Saul the Pharisee was converted to Paul and called and appointed later as an apostle but he worked harder and further than all of the others because of this many never accepted Paul as an apostle and he was constantly defending it in his letters , I myself believe Paul is the twelth appointed apostle of Jesus Christ but this is true of Luke or dings and letters also
As Peter writes to those reading Paul’s letters he approves fully but look at his warning
“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
2 Peter 3:15-18 KJV
Paul’s doctrine is genuine as peters doctrine but people looking to distort Paul’s words can easily do it because he is teaching such deep things it takes sometimes two chapters to really hear what he’s saying and never just single verses it’s easy to distort
“you imply Paul's perspective is allowed to interpolate that of Christ”
I totally disagree with Paul being allowed to “ interpolate “ that of Christ
I don’t even know what “ interpolate “ means lol let me see real quick ok so this is the definition I find
“insert (something of a different nature) into something else.”
I don’t think Paul or anyone else has the right to do that so your conclusion of what I’m saying is way off, can you go and wuote why I said that’s brought you to this conclusion ?
Jesus is the Lord , the apostles are his 12 chosen and appointed witnesses his servants and fellow workers in The kingdom of Jesus Christ
Jesus has twelve thrones at his side , for certain 12 men that he has appointed. This is the twelve men Jesus appointed for this purpose
Consider this
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
John 16:12-15 KJV
How did God accomplish building his church after Jesus left the earth ?
he appointed twelve apostles , to set forth the understanding hat was meant to come out of the things jesus said, those things we can’t understand until we receive the Holy Spirit Jesus spoke about.
the apostles teachings are Jesus continuing to explain things to the church through his twelve chosen and appointed apostles
I say all this because my position on Paul is that he is an apostle one of the twelve men Jesus chose and appointed on earth to plant the church and witness the gospel like he commissioned them to do
I don’t even understand your complaint brother or why you have come to a conclusion such as that
this is Paul and what I believe his place is and also his reward
“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;”
Romans 1:1, 3 KJV
And just like Peter And the others
“Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
according as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
2 Peter 1:1-4
the apostles were revealing opening up thkngs jesus was teaching them later by his spirit in the gospel they were carrying into the nations they were just his servants but also look at thier reward
“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Matthew 19:28 KJV
(the new earth )
and Paul is one of those , not Judas who was present then leaving one empty throne , but he Saul the Pharisee was converted to Paul and called and appointed later as an apostle but he worked harder and further than all of the others because of this many never accepted Paul as an apostle and he was constantly defending it in his letters , I myself believe Paul is the twelth appointed apostle of Jesus Christ but this is true of Luke or dings and letters also
As Peter writes to those reading Paul’s letters he approves fully but look at his warning
“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
2 Peter 3:15-18 KJV
Paul’s doctrine is genuine as peters doctrine but people looking to distort Paul’s words can easily do it because he is teaching such deep things it takes sometimes two chapters to really hear what he’s saying and never just single verses it’s easy to distort
Great question. Why do you do that?
When God defines his Elect in both testaments. Jesus tells us no one can come to him unless the Father draws them. When Jesus told his Disciples his Gospel teachings were not meant for whosoever heard them to understand because if everyone did understand they would be redeemed.
The actual scripture being ignored so often perhaps a paraphrase will get through.
Giant bold font doesn't alter God's words.
Why do you object to God's plan as one of his Elect?
The God of the Bible doesn't change because people don't like what he has to say about those not his Elect.
He knows all things from beginning to end.
And Universalism,btw, is not his plan.
If it were there would be no need for faith,preachers or churches.
Everybody's Saved no matter what.
Even Stalin. Even Charles Manson.
All the evil people in the world working for the Devil are saved.
Universal salvation. That would make Lucifer and his angels saved too. Universal....Salvation.
Pilate. Emperor Caligula, who poured pitch on Christians and then nailed them to stakes and set them afire to light his courtyard during parties.
Heavens going to be a hoot, huh?
People believe in God.
Just not all of what he has to tell them.
John 17:6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
Please provide a verse that says this.
I've already explained that this verse isn't about the gospel. The gospel is a trust issue, not a spiritual issue. Acts 14:23 - Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
And you haven't proven your claim anyway. Whereas I have provided the evidence that unbelievers are able to correctly explain the gospel, all the while not believing it.
Further, the Bible says, twice, that men "refused to believe". That is proof enough. One has to understand something before they will refuse to believe it.
It makes no sense to refuse something that you don't even understand.
Not relevant to our discussion.
I've already explained that this verse isn't about the gospel. The gospel is a trust issue, not a spiritual issue. Acts 14:23 - Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
And you haven't proven your claim anyway. Whereas I have provided the evidence that unbelievers are able to correctly explain the gospel, all the while not believing it.
Further, the Bible says, twice, that men "refused to believe". That is proof enough. One has to understand something before they will refuse to believe it.
It makes no sense to refuse something that you don't even understand.
Not relevant to our discussion.
If you are quoting from 1 Pet 2 with none perishing, go back to 1 Pet 1 to see that Peter is talking to those who have like precious faith. Peter even includes himself in his warning to repent by using the word "usward". Perish = death = separation. When a born again child of God sins, he separates himself from fellowship with God, until he repents, because God will not fellowship sin.
Your comment on my statement on Matt 25:41; Are you sure that the non-elect are not the devil's angles. In Matt 13:41, are not the non-elect those that do things that offend, and do iniquity? Matt 13:49, The non-elect are not "the just", so they must be "the wicked" that are cast into the furnace of fire.
John 3:16 is the world "of believers", not the whole world.
Jesus died for those that his Father choose before the foundation of the world. That was before he even created man, so believing is not the cause for eternal deliverance.
The inspired word of God is written to those that he choose to instruct them as to how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. He did not choose all mankind, but those that he did choose, he gave to his Son to adopt as his children.
This is correct, but only those that he choose, and quickens to a new spiritual life will believe.
Yes, God choose some out of the race of mankind, not all of mankind.
Jesus died for those that his Father choose before the foundation of the world. That was before he even created man, so believing is not the cause for eternal deliverance.
The inspired word of God is written to those that he choose to instruct them as to how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. He did not choose all mankind, but those that he did choose, he gave to his Son to adopt as his children.
This is correct, but only those that he choose, and quickens to a new spiritual life will believe.
Yes, God choose some out of the race of mankind, not all of mankind.
Are you talking about those who can still feel conviction from the HOLY SPIRIT?
A person that has committed the unforgivable sin can not and will not respond to being convicted.
John 6:44
King James Version
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
A person that has committed the unforgivable sin can not and will not respond to being convicted.
John 6:44
King James Version
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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All your talking points say otherwise.
Arminians have never realized John Calvin was preceded by many others teaching the same thing.
And God's words pre-existed John Calvin. So too did Jesus, who taught the same thing.
9.I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
No. You've ignored and attacked those verses enough.
And that is as God wills. Your attitude proves the truth of just John 17. And all those other verses you call lies.
Now I know why you don't understand.
Nothing else need be said save to point out your own words show why you wrongly imagine 1 Corinthians 2:12 is,as you state in closing:
"Not relevant to our discussion.''
God's words are always proven true by examples in the world.
And that is as God wills. Your attitude proves the truth of just John 17. And all those other verses you call lies.
Now I know why you don't understand.
Nothing else need be said save to point out your own words show why you wrongly imagine 1 Corinthians 2:12 is,as you state in closing:
"Not relevant to our discussion.''
God's words are always proven true by examples in the world.
FreeGrace2 said:
Please read it again. Before you post.
I didn't say anything about your "non-elects" regarding Matt 25:41. The LOF was created for the devil and his angels. However, Rev 20:11-15 makes clear that all unbelievers, those who never believed, per John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12, will be cast into that LOF.
This sentence is very confused. Please rephrase.
I never use unbiblical language when I describe categories of people. You use "elect" and "non-elect" which the Bible never uses.
I use "saved" and "unsaved". The saved will be with God forever and the unsaved will be in the LOF forever.
Please read it again. Before you post.
I didn't say anything about your "non-elects" regarding Matt 25:41. The LOF was created for the devil and his angels. However, Rev 20:11-15 makes clear that all unbelievers, those who never believed, per John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12, will be cast into that LOF.
This sentence is very confused. Please rephrase.
I never use unbiblical language when I describe categories of people. You use "elect" and "non-elect" which the Bible never uses.
I use "saved" and "unsaved". The saved will be with God forever and the unsaved will be in the LOF forever.
FreeGrace2 said:
All your talking points say otherwise.
Are you reading my posts? I never called you that. I said your talking points say something else.
Calvinism corrupts believers. None of TULIP is found in Scripture, for starters. I don't hate the theology. I strongly disagree with it.
Just to put your mind to rest, I have as many issues and arguments with Arminians as I do with Calvinists, just different ones.
Regardless of how many people teach what Calvin believed is immaterial. My theology is determined by the Berean Bible Study Method.
Maybe you have heard of it. Comes from Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
I apply this to EVERY theology and claimer I come across. I examine Scriptures every day to see if what Calvinism says is true. And I have found over the decades that the talking points of Calvinists cannot be found in Scripture.
No, Jesus didn't teach what Calvin taught. Paul taught straight from the OT, proving that Jesus was the Messiah. And when the jailer asked him what he MUST DO to be saved, Paul's answer blows Calvinism out of the water: He said, believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved". There is NO mention in Scripture that Paul had special powers to determine who was "elect" or not. He tried to persuade EVERYONE to believe in Christ. Again, quite unCalvinistic.
Jesus was referring to believers, obviously.
Again, why haven't you provided even one verse that clearly indicates that Jesus died ONLY FOR some, and not "all"?
All your talking points say otherwise.
Are you reading my posts? I never called you that. I said your talking points say something else.
Calvinism corrupts believers. None of TULIP is found in Scripture, for starters. I don't hate the theology. I strongly disagree with it.
Just to put your mind to rest, I have as many issues and arguments with Arminians as I do with Calvinists, just different ones.
Regardless of how many people teach what Calvin believed is immaterial. My theology is determined by the Berean Bible Study Method.
Maybe you have heard of it. Comes from Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
I apply this to EVERY theology and claimer I come across. I examine Scriptures every day to see if what Calvinism says is true. And I have found over the decades that the talking points of Calvinists cannot be found in Scripture.
No, Jesus didn't teach what Calvin taught. Paul taught straight from the OT, proving that Jesus was the Messiah. And when the jailer asked him what he MUST DO to be saved, Paul's answer blows Calvinism out of the water: He said, believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved". There is NO mention in Scripture that Paul had special powers to determine who was "elect" or not. He tried to persuade EVERYONE to believe in Christ. Again, quite unCalvinistic.
Jesus was referring to believers, obviously.
Again, why haven't you provided even one verse that clearly indicates that Jesus died ONLY FOR some, and not "all"?
FreeGrace2 said:
Please provide a verse that says this.
Simply proving that the verses do not even say what your talking points say isn't an attack. It's a rebuttal. The point is that you cannot provide any verses that SAY what you claim. Period. I know that is painful to hear, but it is the truth.
How about you show me which verses you presume that I am calling lies. I'll wait. If you can't, I will expect an apology for such a childish comment.
Oh, there are examples of Calvinism in the Bible? Then it should be easy to provide some that support your claims.
How about we start with the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved? In the theory, or theology, of Calvinism, man doesn't DO a thing. He has either already been chosen to salvation unconditionally, or not. So Paul's answer would reflect that, if Calvinism were true. However, Paul told him what to DO; to believe on Jesus Christ, and the result would be that he would be saved.
So, iow, the result of the jailer BELIEVING in Christ would be that he would be saved. That's not Calvinism.
Would you like some more examples from Scripture?
Please provide a verse that says this.
Simply proving that the verses do not even say what your talking points say isn't an attack. It's a rebuttal. The point is that you cannot provide any verses that SAY what you claim. Period. I know that is painful to hear, but it is the truth.
How about you show me which verses you presume that I am calling lies. I'll wait. If you can't, I will expect an apology for such a childish comment.
Oh, there are examples of Calvinism in the Bible? Then it should be easy to provide some that support your claims.
How about we start with the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved? In the theory, or theology, of Calvinism, man doesn't DO a thing. He has either already been chosen to salvation unconditionally, or not. So Paul's answer would reflect that, if Calvinism were true. However, Paul told him what to DO; to believe on Jesus Christ, and the result would be that he would be saved.
So, iow, the result of the jailer BELIEVING in Christ would be that he would be saved. That's not Calvinism.
Would you like some more examples from Scripture?