Abusing Religious Authority or The Narcissist and God

[Polar]

I guess this could be a topic for the Family Forum, but as scripture seems to actually deal with the topic, this might be the right place.

“1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jan’nes and Jam’bres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.” II Timothy 3: 1-9

Well that's a mouthful and I think it is overlooked in discussions here in the forum quite often. Ever had a discussion with a very distainful person who scoffs at you and you dismisses what you say as though you were not worth the time? This same person will expect you to follow their every word and will give you what for if you do not keep up with them.

In person, we might refer to that individual as a narcissist but that behavior is also repeated here.

So I am thinking about what happens when you have a person who is a believer, yet they act just like that narcissist that nobody wants to be around?

Have you known people who always seem to 'hide behind God' with statements like...'well, I didn't say that. God said that so you are going 'against' God. Pretty hard to answer that one. Or is it? It seems evidence suggests that people’s opinion of what God thinks is right and wrong tracks what they believe is right and wrong, not the other way around.

I think it would be interesting to have a discussion on how to deal with things like that and what scripture says about it. Well I think that, but then I have a background in dealing with narcissists for some reason, so I find it interesting. This could also be a big flop but we'll see.

 

[oyster67]

This could also be a big flop but we'll see.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Just kidding.

Quoting scripture is good. We will be accused of being heady and high-minded, but it is God we seek to please.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I used to debate scriptures but I learned that's an argument that will never be won; now I rarely do. Scriptures can be made to say anything a person wants them to. If someone makes a habit of posting page after page of scriptures with no comment, they pretty quickly go on ignore.

 

[JohnDB]

I guess this could be a topic for the Family Forum, but as scripture seems to actually deal with the topic, this might be the right place.

“1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jan’nes and Jam’bres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.” II Timothy 3: 1-9

Well that's a mouthful and I think it is overlooked in discussions here in the forum quite often. Ever had a discussion with a very distainful person who scoffs at you and you dismisses what you say as though you were not worth the time? This same person will expect you to follow their every word and will give you what for if you do not keep up with them.

In person, we might refer to that individual as a narcissist but that behavior is also repeated here.

So I am thinking about what happens when you have a person who is a believer, yet they act just like that narcissist that nobody wants to be around?

Have you known people who always seem to 'hide behind God' with statements like...'well, I didn't say that. God said that so you are going 'against' God. Pretty hard to answer that one. Or is it? It seems evidence suggests that people’s opinion of what God thinks is right and wrong tracks what they believe is right and wrong, not the other way around.

I think it would be interesting to have a discussion on how to deal with things like that and what scripture says about it. Well I think that, but then I have a background in dealing with narcissists for some reason, so I find it interesting. This could also be a big flop but we'll see.

You should have quoted verse 13 as well in 2TIMOTHY 3.
There's an expanded translation describing the goading and the constant beating them forward along a path they don't want to go that I happen to like.

Narcissists are like little devils behind the scenes manipulating everyone they come in contact with. But they are never happy...never know love...they grow to hate everyone including themselves.

These people have a miserable existence. "Deceiving and being deceived "

And yet this life is as good as it gets for these people.

Fears and wants are unique. When young, people often have some level of control over them....however they tend to flip the script at some point and control the person with them...all while this person doesn't know what true love is like at all.
How meaningful is it if your computer tells you it loves you versus a person with a truly free will and no manipulation whatsoever tells it to you.

That's the life of Narcissists. They manipulate everyone they can. They hide behind a mask....at some point they believe that mask is the truth...and that begins their unraveling.

 

[Polar]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Just kidding.

Quoting scripture is good. We will be accused of being heady and high-minded, but it is God we seek to please.

There is so much putting down of other people here that the oxygen is sucked out of some threads

Countering with scripture IN CONTEXT I don't have a problem with. It's the God told me to tell you crowd that makes me shiver

 

[Polar]

I used to debate scriptures but I learned that's an argument that will never be won; now I rarely do. Scriptures can be made to say anything a person wants them to. If someone makes a habit of posting page after page of scriptures with no comment, they pretty quickly go on ignore.

It's the winning that seems to be the goal far too often. But yeah. Scripture can often be handled fast and loose. Anybody can copy/paste

 

[Polar]

You should have quoted verse 13 as well in 2TIMOTHY 3.
There's an expanded translation describing the goading and the constant beating them forward along a path they don't want to go that I happen to like.

Narcissists are like little devils behind the scenes manipulating everyone they come in contact with. But they are never happy...never know love...they grow to hate everyone including themselves.

These people have a miserable existence. "Deceiving and being deceived "

And yet this life is as good as it gets for these people.

Fears and wants are unique. When young, people often have some level of control over them....however they tend to flip the script at some point and control the person with them...all while this person doesn't know what true love is like at all.
How meaningful is it if your computer tells you it loves you versus a person with a truly free will and no manipulation whatsoever tells it to you.

That's the life of Narcissists. They manipulate everyone they can. They hide behind a mask....at some point they believe that mask is the truth...and that begins their unraveling.

Should have? ok......Go ahead and post that expanded translation cause I really don't know to which you are referring, but I'm interested.

You are right when you state that Narcissists are not a happy crowd. In fact, they are known for having very fragile egos which is one reason that any criticism is anathema to them.

Gaslighting is another method. Of course if a person is not used to dealing with this nonsense, they can be really affected by it...pretty much how I learned the hard way that these jokesters exist and no amount of trying to reason or explain or otherwise discuss (to save your own sanity if no one elses') will make the slightest dent whatsoever. And of course the charm. In the beginning, the charm.

But I was particularly interested in discussing (if anyone want's to) the repercussions when dealing with a believer who also is a narcissist. (I dunno. are these 2 things together not possible?)

Here is an interesting quote:
Like everything else in the narcissist’s life, he mutates God into a kind of inverted narcissist. God becomes his dominant Source of Supply. He forms a personal relationship with this overwhelming and overpowering entity – in order to overwhelm and overpower others.
He becomes God vicariously, by the proxy of his relationship with Him. He idealizes God, then devalues Him, then abuses Him. This is the classic narcissistic pattern and even God himself cannot escape it.

This would be the person who laughs at you if you object to their beliefs...only they have the truth and you are ignorant, and so on.

It's like they make their own version of God and you had better listen or you will pay. There are pastors, teachers, elders and just about anyone who can function that way.

One example of a narcissist in scripture, although not a believer in God, is Jezebel.

I know we all have had to deal with this type of person in our life. We are usually fooled by them unless we have come across them before. So how do we deal with them as Christians?

 

[ResidentAlien]

But I was particularly interested in discussing (if anyone want's to) the repercussions when dealing with a believer who also is a narcissist. (I dunno. are these 2 things together not possible?)

Personally I don't find it helpful to label people like that. I'm all for coping strategies that work so long as I keep in mind I'm the one having a problem. They may in fact be a narcissist but I haven't found it necessary or helpful really to label them as such.

 

[Rosemaryx]

So how do we deal with them as Christians?

I cannot deal with them if the truth be known...
I do not even want to make a thread about anything because I have seen with my own eyes , even the simplest thread can get torn to pieces...

I think you have made some valid points...
Am off out now as my family have organized a celebration for my birthday , I am 61 today ...
I will re-read your wh0le post when I get back home , I think a lot of people on here should , but some might feel exposed , and that is a good thing...
...xox...

 

[Polar]

I cannot deal with them if the truth be known...
I do not even want to make a thread about anything because I have seen with my own eyes , even the simplest thread can get torn to pieces...

I think you have made some valid points...
Am off out now as my family have organized a celebration for my birthday , I am 61 today ...
I will re-read your wh0le post when I get back home , I think a lot of people on here should , but some might feel exposed , and that is a good thing...
...xox...

Yeah really nobody wants to deal with them...but they're out there

I stopped making threads myself for the most part for the reason you express.

BUT HAPPY BIRTH-DAY TO YOU!!! Have a fantastic time at your party.

 

[Snacks]

Ever had a discussion with a very distainful person who scoffs at you and you dismisses what you say as though you were not worth the time? This same person will expect you to follow their every word and will give you what for if you do not keep up with them.

I was recently given a week’s vacation from here because of my attitude. I despise when people shut out the Kingdom of Heaven against others, using Scripture as a weapon to crush souls and spirits rather than crushing doubt and insecurity regarding God’s infinite love and the fullness of His saving grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Polar]

I was recently given a week’s vacation from here because of my attitude. I despise when people shut out the Kingdom of Heaven against others, using Scripture as a weapon to crush souls and spirits rather than crushing doubt and insecurity regarding God’s infinite love and the fullness of His saving grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Well using scripture as a weapon is pretty much what I am getting at. And probably cherry picked and out of context , right? In other words cultish behavior that attributes what they write as though it came straight from heaven with God's blessing. There are entire churches that are run that way. And there are people in this forum that take over threads and bully everyone else; twist what people say and then when folks get upset over that, they report them. And there you have a vacation. Not Air B & B either.

So, I am asking how to deal with folks when they behave that way. No use getting upset. It feeds the ego of the individual getting a kick out of seeing his handiwork come to fruition.

You know, I think most of us on here are probably ok even if sometimes we have the wrong interpretations, we are open to understanding where we went wrong. (hopefully. ) God is patient, loving and kind and does not snark at us and tell us to go read the Bible when we might have our own ideas about something. On the other hand, those that do that sort of thing, are often the very people that need to go and read the Bible themselves.

So do we ignore these people? Might as well because they are not going to change. Snarking back is their breakfast and dinner and they will take advantage of anything you say that can be used against you. People avoid the BDF like the plague because of this sort of thing but I personally want to discuss the Bible and our life in Christ. When the most basic of Christian doctrines are twisted and Christ is left out, the thread becomes a black hole where the truth disappears and nothing comes back out.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

is it possible that a narcissist can be a real Believer of God?
you must deny yourself, you must put the needs of others before your own, you must acknowledge there is a God.
the only time i have seen narcissist in a Church building was for the purpose of seeking out an enabler who they could attach to.

i know a woman married 35 years, the last 15 she felt she was with a different person. she had no idea about narcissist but was beat down mentally to a point she went to a psychotherapist. immediately, she was told her husband is using her as a beard, a cover, etc. from day 1, he listened to her words and became her. voted like her, liked the same foods, music, etc. was not an individual.

by time the divorce was over, her attorney, a top dog attorney, discovered he was a hidden homosexual but was using his marriage as a front for his job and other identities. he was so evil he threatened to kill her in court because it was discovered he had been hiding tons of money which now she was entitled to.

but anyway, is it possible for someone like what i just described to be a real Follower of God?

i don't believe it!

 

[Hazelelponi]

It's the winning that seems to be the goal far too often. But yeah. Scripture can often be handled fast and loose. Anybody can copy/paste

We all, to whatever degree, believe that our view of what Scripture teaches is the correct view.

Some may be right, others potentially deluded, but I don't think tagging people with names like narcissist etc is Christian. We aren't licensed psychologists with an indepth study of the person/ people in question.

That said, often online I just get the feeling of the community being a haunt for every evil thing, and not necessarily Christian because of some of this negative behavior.

I honestly don't know how to appropriately address some people as a result... I guess learning how to have actual discussion with these certain personality types would be great, but I haven't learned how yet.

By the way, I am running a high fever and am a bit on the delirious side so forgive my rambling. I have come down fairly hard with COVID for the first time.

 

[Rosemaryx]

We all, to whatever degree, believe that our view of what Scripture teaches is the correct view.

Some may be right, others potentially deluded, but I don't think tagging people with names like narcissist etc is Christian. We aren't licensed psychologists with an indepth study of the person/ people in question.

That said, often online I just get the feeling of the community being a haunt for every evil thing, and not necessarily Christian because of some of this negative behavior.

I honestly don't know how to appropriately address some people as a result... I guess learning how to have actual discussion with these certain personality types would be great, but I haven't learned how yet.

By the way, I am running a high fever and am a bit on the delirious side so forgive my rambling. I have come down fairly hard with COVID for the first time.

I pray you will rest in our Lord , and He will bless you with some beautiful sleep and refresh you Amen...

 

[Polar]

We all, to whatever degree, believe that our view of what Scripture teaches is the correct view.

Some may be right, others potentially deluded, but I don't think tagging people with names like narcissist etc is Christian. We aren't licensed psychologists with an indepth study of the person/ people in question.

That said, often online I just get the feeling of the community being a haunt for every evil thing, and not necessarily Christian because of some of this negative behavior.

I honestly don't know how to appropriately address some people as a result... I guess learning how to have actual discussion with these certain personality types would be great, but I haven't learned how yet.

By the way, I am running a high fever and am a bit on the delirious side so forgive my rambling. I have come down fairly hard with COVID for the first time.

Hi Hazelelponi

First, awful to hear about your current health. I pray and I am sure others here will agree, that you heal up quickly.

I want to make it clear though, that I am not really addressing personal views of scripture because we all know that there is plenty of that to go around. I am not tagging anyone with the name narcissist. Narcissism is an actual condition, well recognized and documented and when people are a narcissist they will act as one. That is the hard truth and Christians need to understand that just because they are on a Christian forum, does not mean that everyone here is what they say they are.

I certainly do not see this place as a haunt for every evil thing and negative behavior is sometimes only something we have a personal issue with. As far as being a licensed psychologist, a person does not need to be one to discuss the type. No one here is holding counseling for the narcissist and frankly, it is the people the narcissist affects that most often need the counselling. For the record though, I have actually counselled (biblical counselling) and undertook a good number of psych and communication courses in order to be prepared in that area.

As it is, I was asking how we should relate or respond to a person who acts in the manner of a narcissist. As a Christian myself, I have no qualms about identifying people who use other people and I have not made any mention of anyone on the forum, so I do not see any problem with discussing the reality of the narcissistic personality and how to deal with such.

So just to sum it all up, I created this thread in a general manner, although knowing full well what goes on in this forum but with no desire to speak of any individual, but with the hope of being able to discuss the reality, without the injury and in doing so, to maybe, just maybe, help some people to see they will not every win with a narcissistic type personality and it is truly best just to move on.

I understand the difficulties of seeing and understanding such things on a Christian forum but we do not need to be defensive or accusatorial.


Again, I pray that the illness you are currently experiencing, passes quickly and you are left whole again.

 

[Polar]

is it possible that a narcissist can be a real Believer of God?
you must deny yourself, you must put the needs of others before your own, you must acknowledge there is a God.
the only time i have seen narcissist in a Church building was for the purpose of seeking out an enabler who they could attach to.

i know a woman married 35 years, the last 15 she felt she was with a different person. she had no idea about narcissist but was beat down mentally to a point she went to a psychotherapist. immediately, she was told her husband is using her as a beard, a cover, etc. from day 1, he listened to her words and became her. voted like her, liked the same foods, music, etc. was not an individual.

by time the divorce was over, her attorney, a top dog attorney, discovered he was a hidden homosexual but was using his marriage as a front for his job and other identities. he was so evil he threatened to kill her in court because it was discovered he had been hiding tons of money which now she was entitled to.

but anyway, is it possible for someone like what i just described to be a real Follower of God?

i don't believe it!

Well, what you seem to be describing is a homosexual who wanted to stay in the closet and used an innocent person as their closet.

No, I do not think for one moment that man was a believer. This type of thing goes on every day in this world.

I really just wanted to discuss, if possible, how we should respond to someone who seems abusive and does not really want to discuss so much as to force others to accept what they believe to be true.

In that sense, who is really the best representative of Christ? Personally, I believe that to be Jesus Himself. I think wisdom might dictate our behavior and the more sensitive among us, should probably just not engage.

What would you do if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Polar]

Are people aware that the abusive Pastor, elder and so on, are often narcissistic? If you are faced with an unreasonable person who dictates the terms of your own life to you, or go to a church where the 'pastor' lays down the law and everyone must listen to that one person because 'God put them in charge', you are being spiritually and emotionally abused.

A few things to take note of how in a person so self-engaged they have no room for anyone else:

An inability to be open and honest but expect that from others
Distain towards others feelings, opinions or achievements
Cannot admit mistakes, with a strong need to be in control

Those things are usually obvious and a simple overview of someone who makes you feel powerless, hopeless and wondering if it's you or 'them'

And again, just wanting to discuss how we deal with this type of thing because people like that are found in church, at work, in school, in friendships, marriage and yes, here too.

 

[TheNarrowPath]

I cannot deal with them if the truth be known...
I do not even want to make a thread about anything because I have seen with my own eyes , even the simplest thread can get torn to pieces...

I think you have made some valid points...
Am off out now as my family have organized a celebration for my birthday , I am 61 today ...
I will re-read your wh0le post when I get back home , I think a lot of people on here should , but some might feel exposed , and that is a good thing...
...xox...

Happy Birthday Rosemaryx May your days especially today be filled with love and laughter 🎂💐

 

[TheNarrowPath]

We all, to whatever degree, believe that our view of what Scripture teaches is the correct view.

Some may be right, others potentially deluded, but I don't think tagging people with names like narcissist etc is Christian. We aren't licensed psychologists with an indepth study of the person/ people in question.

That said, often online I just get the feeling of the community being a haunt for every evil thing, and not necessarily Christian because of some of this negative behavior.

I honestly don't know how to appropriately address some people as a result... I guess learning how to have actual discussion with these certain personality types would be great, but I haven't learned how yet.

By the way, I am running a high fever and am a bit on the delirious side so forgive my rambling. I have come down fairly hard with COVID for the first time.

Hope you feel better soon Hazelelponi! Im in the same boat as you, I think I have covid from my teen but it will be the 2nd time