The Plan of salvation.

[ForestGreenCook]

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eternal deliverance was accomplished on the cross for all of those that God gave to Jesus to die for, which had nothing to do with any action on the part of those that he died for. It was totally by God's sovereign grace, without the help of those he died for.

Preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ can be responsible for saving (delivering) those that he died for from believing in the letter of the old law to save (deliver) them eternally, by their good works. This is a deliverance that they receive as they sojourn here on earth. Preaching of the gospel cannot deliver anyone eternally.

God's instructions to his ordained preachers, is to teach the lost sheep, of the house of Israel (not all of the nation of Israel, but Jacob/Israel, which is God's elect (Rom 9:11), teaching them the knowledge that Christ has already paid for their sins, and not to depend upon the old law for their eternal deliverance. therefore, saving (delivering) them from their ignorance. Romans 10 is a good example of delivering those that believe in God, but not understanding what God has already done for them.

If you believe that all of the salvation (deliverance) scriptures are referring to eternal, the you are believing eternal deliverance is accomplished by your good works.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eternal deliverance was accomplished on the cross for all of those that God gave to Jesus to die for, which had nothing to do with any action on the part of those that he died for. It was totally by God's sovereign grace, without the help of those he died for.

Repeating this reformed talking point will never make it true. Titus 2:11 refutes it, as does ALL the verses that plainly say that Jesus died for all.

If you believe that all of the salvation (deliverance) scriptures are referring to eternal, the you are believing eternal deliverance is accomplished by your good works.

I don't. Of course the word in the Hebrew and Greek simply means to deliver, to rescue. Context determines the deliverance/rescue is either for the soul or for some temporal danger.

Believng isn't a good work, btw. Salvation is by grace through faith. Faith isn't a work. You need to know that.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Believng isn't a good work, btw. Salvation is by grace through faith. Faith isn't a work. You need to know that.

Believing is not the cause of eternal life. Had not God, by his sovereign grace, given you spiritual faith, you could not have believed spiritual things. Scripture tells us that spiritual faith can deliver (save) the born again child of God as he sojourns here on earth, but not eternally.

Salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of yourself, is a quote from Eph 2:8, and it is Jesus's faith (Gal 2:16), and not man's faith.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Titus 2:11 refutes it, as does ALL the verses that plainly say that Jesus died for all.

The "ALL MEN" in Titus 2:11, is the same as the Us's in verse's 12 & 14. The Us that Jesus gave himself for, and redeemed were the all mankind that God gave to Jesus to die for (John 6:39).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So you obviously deny that salvation is offered to man, and man must accept the offer then.

Christ was sacrificed on the cross to redeem all of those that God gave him, in which he said that he would not lose any of them, but raise all of them up at the last day. (John 6:39) Jesus's sacrifice was an offering to God , for God's acceptance, and not to man for man's acceptance.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

1 Cor 1:21 - Who is doing the saving in this verse?

What is the preacher delivering (saving) them from? from being ignorant of the knowledge of exactly what Jesus has already accomplished for them, so that they do not have to depend upon their good works to save them eternally. They believe in God, but they are ignorant about what Jesus has done for them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Believng isn't a good work, btw. Salvation is by grace through faith. Faith isn't a work. You need to know that.

Believing is not the cause of eternal life.

Correct. Eph 2:8 says we are saved through faith, not by faith.

Had not God, by his sovereign grace, given you spiritual faith, you could not have believed spiritual things.

Please quote whatever verse says this plainly.

Scripture tells us that spiritual faith can deliver (save) the born again child of God as he sojourns here on earth, but not eternally.

Which verse? I've never seen "spiritual faith" in the Bible in either OT or NT.

Salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of yourself, is a quote from Eph 2:8, and it is Jesus's faith (Gal 2:16), and not man's faith.

Where does the Bible speak of "man's faith"? I know Rom 10:10 teaches were man believes from; his heart.

Once again Titus 2:11 teaches that God's grace offers salvation to everyone. Because Christ died for everyone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Titus 2:11 refutes it, as does ALL the verses that plainly say that Jesus died for all.

The "ALL MEN" in Titus 2:11, is the same as the Us's in verse's 12 & 14.

You are twisting Scriptures to mean what it doesn't say.

"US" is not everyone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
So you obviously deny that salvation is offered to man, and man must accept the offer then.

Christ was sacrificed on the cross to redeem all of those that God gave him, in which he said that he would not lose any of them, but raise all of them up at the last day. (John 6:39) Jesus's sacrifice was an offering to God , for God's acceptance, and not to man for man's acceptance.

Right. You have rejected the obvious and plain meaning of Titus 2:11.

I gave you the verses that teach that Christ died for everyone, the world. Your elitist view is not taught in Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
1 Cor 1:21 - Who is doing the saving in this verse?

What is the preacher delivering (saving) them from? from being ignorant of the knowledge of exactly what Jesus has already accomplished for them, so that they do not have to depend upon their good works to save them eternally. They believe in God, but they are ignorant about what Jesus has done for them.

The answer to my straightforward question is: God is doing the saving in 1 Cor 1:21.

I have no idea what all you are referring to.

 

[Dino246]

The "ALL MEN" in Titus 2:11, is the same as the Us's in verse's 12 & 14. The Us that Jesus gave himself for, and redeemed were the all mankind that God gave to Jesus to die for (John 6:39).

Here are the verses:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The "us" in verse 11 is all who hear His teaching, and the "us" in verse 14 is all humanity, for those who are already redeemed are not in need of redemption. Your point is not supported by the text.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Please quote whatever verse says this plainly.

1 Cor 2:14.

Which verse? I've never seen "spiritual faith" in the Bible in either OT or NT.

1 Cor 2:14 - the unregenerate person only has faith in himself and his accomplishments. He cannot discern the things of the Spirit (spiritual faith that is a fruit of the Holy Spirit -Gal 5:22- which indwells those that have been born again to the new spiritual life -Eph 2:1-5). When born again, we are in Christ and Christ in us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Where does the Bible speak of "man's faith"? I know Rom 10:10 teaches were man believes from; his heart.

Man's faith is believing in the fact that Jesus faithfulness in going to the cross is what sanctifies us (Gal 2:16).

Once again Titus 2:11 teaches that God's grace offers salvation to everyone. Because Christ died for everyone.

And again, Paul left Titus in Crete, to ordain elders in every city (Titus 1:5). Elders are to teach those in the church how that they should behave, and adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things (verse 10). These are the "all men" referenced in verse 11.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

FreeGrace2 said:
Titus 2:11 refutes it, as does ALL the verses that plainly say that Jesus died for all.



You are twisting Scriptures to mean what it doesn't say.

"US" is not everyone.

The "US" in all of the group that Titus is having the elders to instruct.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

for those who are already redeemed are not in need of redemption. Your point is not supported by the text

The inspired scriptures are not written to the unregenerate, but are written as instructions to God's adopted children, as to how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. That is what the book of titus is all about.

Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". The lost sheep (God's adopted children)of the house of Jacob/Israel (Jacob's name was changed by God to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 33:28). Jacob/Israel is representative of God's elect (Rom 9:11).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

FreeGrace2 said:
1 Cor 1:21 - Who is doing the saving in this verse?

The answer to my straightforward question is: God is doing the saving in 1 Cor 1:21.

I have no idea what all you are referring to.

The preacher is doing the saving (delivering) of disbelieving born again people, not eternally, but delivering them from their ignorance of what Jesus accomplished for them on the cross.

It is obvious that you have no idea what I am referring to. You are one of those born again people (lost sheep) that I am trying to teach the knowledge of what Christ has done for you on the cross, so that, hopefully, you will quit giving all mankind credit for saving (delivering) themselves eternally, and give God all of the glory instead of giving it to mankind.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Please quote whatever verse says this plainly.

1 Cor 2:14.

No. You have to assume the gospel is a spiritual issue. And you haven't proven it from Scripture. It is a trust issue.

Man's faith is believing in the fact that Jesus faithfulness in going to the cross is what sanctifies us (Gal 2:16).

Rom 10:10 teaches that man believes from his heart. The heart is the seat of man's conscience, which is God given. So God created mankind with the ability to understand and believe the gospel. The FACT that the Bible plainly teaches that men REFUSE to believe also proves man's ability to believe from their own heart. They simply choose not to believe.

And again, Paul left Titus in Crete, to ordain elders in every city (Titus 1:5). Elders are to teach those in the church how that they should behave, and adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things (verse 10). These are the "all men" referenced in verse 11.

v.11 is quite clear and cannot be twisted by calvinist talking point. The gospel is offered to everyone. Plain and simple.

The only thing that calvinists need to prove their point would be a verse that states their talking point plainly. But they don't have any.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The "US" in all of the group that Titus is having the elders to instruct.

The "us" begins at v.12. Not v.11, as you claim. Again, the verse says God's grace offers salvation to everyone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The inspired scriptures are not written to the unregenerate, but are written as instructions to God's adopted children, as to how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. That is what the book of titus is all about.

All of the epistles were written to saved people, of course. But the gospel of John was specifically written:

John 20:31 - But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

Don't forget Jesus" LAST instructions to His 11 disciples; "go into ALL the world, preaching the gospel to EVERY creature.

The lost sheep (God's adopted children)of the house of Jacob/Israel (Jacob's name was changed by God to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 33:28). Jacob/Israel is representative of God's elect (Rom 9:11).

Do you not realize that if "the lost sheep" represents those who would be saved, you are, maybe unwittingly, admitting that everyone else isn't lost. Ever thought about that?

Here are some verses along those lines:

For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Matt 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?

Rom 5:6 You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

The entire human race is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.

If Christ died for just the elect, then reformed theology leads to universalism, because of these verses. That means the non elect are neither sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, or sinners. So they don’t need salvation. And Christ wouldn’t need to die for any of them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The preacher is doing the saving (delivering) of disbelieving born again people, not eternally, but delivering them from their ignorance of what Jesus accomplished for them on the cross.

This is very confused.

First, preachers DON'T save anyone. Yes, they deliver the message, if that's what you meant, but they don't save people.

Second, if you are using "disbelieving" in the sense of the gospel, then such a disbelieving person IS NOT born again. That is impossible.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

The red phrase at the beginning of the verse is clarified at the end of the verse by the blue words.

iow, regeneration and salvation are equated. They are the same thing. You cannot have one without the other.

There are no verses that show either one without the other.

Then, in v.8 we see that salvation, which is regeneration, is by grace THROUGH faith.

iow, faith precedes both salvation and regeneration.

There are no verses showing the opposite.

It is obvious that you have no idea what I am referring to.

Yes, you've been rather unclear.

You are one of those born again people (lost sheep) that I am trying to teach the knowledge of what Christ has done for you on the cross

I am FULLY aware of ALL that Jesus Christ did on the cross on my behalf. He paid my sin debt FULLY. All I can do is receive the free gift of eternal life through my full trust in His work alone for my salvation.

If you disagree with any of this, I'd say you are in very deep trouble.

so that, hopefully, you will quit giving all mankind credit for saving (delivering) themselves eternally

This is just such a stupid and very phony claim, common among calvinists who have NO IDEA what they are talking about.

Thinking that those who believe that man receives the gift of eternal life by trusting in the work of Jesus Christ is somehow giving man credit "for saving themselves" is complete baloney.

and give God all of the glory instead of giving it to mankind.

I've given NO credit to any man for their salvation.

It's all these red herrings that calvinists have created that really remove any credibility of calvinism.

Not to mention the fact that there are no verses that teach TULIP, unless you understand the "P" as eternal security. That would be the only one.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So God created mankind with the ability to understand and believe the gospel.

Matt 9:26. With man this is impossible
.

No. You have to assume the gospel is a spiritual issue. And you haven't proven it from Scripture. It is a trust issue.

Trust = faith. Faith is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. This, spiritual, faith comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit given in the new birth. The unregenerate man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, has not been born again, and is void of spiritual faith, and therefore cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness.

The "us" begins at v.12. Not v.11, as you claim. Again, the verse says God's grace offers salvation to everyone.

The "us" is implied throughout the whole book of Titus. It includes all of those people that are in the churches in every city of Crete that Titus is ordaining elders.

John 20:31 - But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name

Beginning in John 20:18, Mary came and told the disciples. The verses 18 thru 31, all have reference to Jesus's disciples, and in verse 31
the "YE" has reference to his disciples. All of the born again children of God, believe, but most of them do not have the knowledge of exactly what Jesus accomplished for them on the cross, and are going about trusting in the old law of works to save them eternally. These scriptures that are written, that his disciples might receive the knowledge that Christ paid for their sins on the cross, and they do not have to depend on the old law to deliver them eternally. By believing (receiving this knowledge), they might have life (not eternal life, which they already have, but a good and joyful life as they sojourn here on earth)

This also harmonizes with the two gates in Matt 7:13-14.