Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I have no argument with John, I do with your interpretation which basically means that all sin is not covered by the cross for the believer and according to Jesus we are all guilty.
“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother[a] shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults[b] his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell[c] of fire.
Matthew 5:21-22
“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother[a] shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults[b] his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell[c] of fire.
Matthew 5:21-22
I certainly looks like you said it specifically, to me? Please Explain the political flip flop?
How come JESUS SAID:
Matthew 25:36 (ESV)
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
And I am sure everyone thinks abortions are MURDER in God's eyes, so what does HE think of the USA today.
Numbers 35:33 (GW)
33 “You must not pollute the land where you live. Murder is what pollutes the land. The land where a murder was committed can never make peace with the LORD except through the death of the murderer.
How come JESUS SAID:
Matthew 25:36 (ESV)
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
And I am sure everyone thinks abortions are MURDER in God's eyes, so what does HE think of the USA today.
Numbers 35:33 (GW)
33 “You must not pollute the land where you live. Murder is what pollutes the land. The land where a murder was committed can never make peace with the LORD except through the death of the murderer.
Evmur,
Are you sure you are playing with the SAME Terminology Deck, as the rest of us.
Eternal Life it IS ALSO Saved, IT IS ALSO a Loving Submission to the LORD, and IS ALSO Born Again. They are synonyms, and Born Again People, are the only ones that go HEAVEN. So where are the rest of so-called Christians? I will let JESUS answer that:
Matthew 7:21-23 (NASB)
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
That I never knew you Term, is that "Loving Submission to the LORD because HE Saved You." You WILL know it for Sure if you legitimately surrendered to HIM. No that is not a work on our part, it is something the Holy Spirit Did To You. That is what Spiritual Baptism is all about, where HE IMMERSED YOU INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF CHRIST HIMSELF.
1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. {That is the BAPTISM that SAVES, not Christian Water Baptism.}
It happened to me the last week of 1977, after three attempts a Suicide. The Holy Spirit gave me a deep, deep Conviction of how my whole lifestyle was offense to Jesus Christ. I had to have bawled like a baby for over 2 hours, and over and over again begged HIM for forgiveness. Then the Holy Spirit gave me a PRAYER. "LORD, please Lord Forgive me. If YOU have a purpose for my life, Please come into my heart and run my life, because I CAN'T do it. I am making a total mess of it." Yes I knew in it in an instant, HE WAS TRULY IN MY HEART, and the HOLY SPIRIT gave me total TRUST in HIM. About two weeks later, I had several intimate conversations with HIM, but had not seen him do anything in my life YET. One of the intimate conversations went like this: "LORD, you have not done anything yet. When are YOU going to do something." The answer came back in my heart, "When you start studying the Word." That is how a NEBRASKA farm boy, became a Volunteer Chaplain, in Supermax Prison in California. None of it was my doings, it was TOTALLY HIM.
Do I still believe HE is Still in my Heart? ? ? Oh, My, YES I DO. And HE Said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU."
-
1
- Show all
everything commanded in Moses is "thus saith the LORD"
see what you did there?
These are the commandments and the judgments,
which the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses unto the children of Israel
(Numbers 36:13)
if you put yourself under sabbath by this logic, you are liable to the whole law.see what you did there?
-
1
-
1
- Show all
It is too big a subject for this thread and no-one is interested anyhow but ...
.... but I do not accept that the last judgement will be as it has been preached down the centuries and is currently preached now among evangelicals. I am not a hell fire and damnation preacher even though I believe in hell, the wicked will go there.
Suffice it to say I totally trust that God will judge every man and every woman with perfect equity.
Some people are more to blame than others in the matter of abortion. I counselled a very young lady who came to England for an abortion due the next day but she got saved. But because of the sheer weight of pressure on her young mind and the thing having been arranged and scheduled she did go ahead with the abortion. Did her salvation hold? of course it did. While she was under anaesthetic Jesus appeared to her with arms out stretched chiding her for not trusting Him.
don't let us judge, only God can.
Never the less John does say nobody who is a murderer has eternal life dwelling in them.
Phoneman was talking about saved people having a lifestyle of sin while claiming to be saved.
.... but I do not accept that the last judgement will be as it has been preached down the centuries and is currently preached now among evangelicals. I am not a hell fire and damnation preacher even though I believe in hell, the wicked will go there.
Suffice it to say I totally trust that God will judge every man and every woman with perfect equity.
Some people are more to blame than others in the matter of abortion. I counselled a very young lady who came to England for an abortion due the next day but she got saved. But because of the sheer weight of pressure on her young mind and the thing having been arranged and scheduled she did go ahead with the abortion. Did her salvation hold? of course it did. While she was under anaesthetic Jesus appeared to her with arms out stretched chiding her for not trusting Him.
don't let us judge, only God can.
Never the less John does say nobody who is a murderer has eternal life dwelling in them.
Phoneman was talking about saved people having a lifestyle of sin while claiming to be saved.
-
2
- Show all
What does SDA mean?
There are two types of professing Christians:
Those who believe they are saved, and those who believe and are saved.
I believe and follow the original doctrine of the New Testament. That would be the Pauline doctrine of Justification solely by faith.
God has declared his righteous, and it is God alone who justifies and condemns.
It's true, God's children will be granted eternal life, and nothing will prevent it.
Then the first thing people say is if we're going to heaven no matter what, then it doesn't matter what we do.
And I will say you're right, but if you truly have the spirit of God within you then you won't want to do bad things.
There are two types of professing Christians:
Those who believe they are saved, and those who believe and are saved.
I believe and follow the original doctrine of the New Testament. That would be the Pauline doctrine of Justification solely by faith.
God has declared his righteous, and it is God alone who justifies and condemns.
It's true, God's children will be granted eternal life, and nothing will prevent it.
Then the first thing people say is if we're going to heaven no matter what, then it doesn't matter what we do.
And I will say you're right, but if you truly have the spirit of God within you then you won't want to do bad things.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Yes and they believe we deliberately sin by worshiping on Sunday. However there is no verse in the in the New Testament the restated KEEP THE SABBATH.
Look who is supposed to KEEP THE SABBATH:
Exodus 31:12-18 (HCSB)
12 The LORD said to Moses:
13 “Tell the Israelites: You must observe My Sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, so that you will know that I am Yahweh who sets you apart.
14 Observe the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Whoever profanes it must be put to death. If anyone does work on it, that person must be cut off from his people.
15 Work may be done for six days, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, dedicated to the LORD. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
16 The Israelites must observe the Sabbath, celebrating it throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign forever between Me and the Israelites, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.”
18 When He finished speaking with Moses on Mount Sinai, He gave him the two tablets of the testimony, stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God.
Now lets Look at the Commands pertaining to worship in the New Testament:
Romans 14:5-12 (HCSB)
5 One person considers one day to be above another day. Someone else considers every day to be the same. Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 Whoever observes the day, observes it for the honor of the Lord. Whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; and whoever does not eat, it is for the Lord that he does not eat ⌊it⌋, yet he thanks God.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.
8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 Christ died and came to life for this: that He might rule over both the dead and the living.
10 But you, why do you criticize your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before the tribunal of God.
11 For it is written: As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to Me, and every tongue will give praise to God.
12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
There is no condemnation in VERSE 5. Yes they are allowed to worship on Saturday, but that does not make them more Holy, and if Pride wells up, that Pride is sin, and does not earn us SALVATION. Likewise, I do believe one who believes every Day is alike, as I think I should Believe my attitude Toward Christ, should be Not be less than any other Day. Sure I worship on Sunday, but I talk to the LORD every day.
Here is our Worship COMMAND, notice there is not specific day mentioned:
Hebrews 10:19-25 (HCSB)
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way He has opened for us through the curtain (that is, His flesh),
21 and since we have a great high priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, our hearts sprinkled ⌊clean⌋ from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water.
23 Let us hold on to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
24 And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works,
25 not staying away from our ⌊worship⌋ meetings, as some habitually do, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day (the Rapture) drawing near.
And these Verses:
Ephesians 5:17-20 (ASV)
17 Wherefore be ye not foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunken with wine, wherein is riot, but be filled with the Spirit;
19 speaking one to another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
20 giving thanks always for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father;
Look who is supposed to KEEP THE SABBATH:
Exodus 31:12-18 (HCSB)
12 The LORD said to Moses:
13 “Tell the Israelites: You must observe My Sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, so that you will know that I am Yahweh who sets you apart.
14 Observe the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Whoever profanes it must be put to death. If anyone does work on it, that person must be cut off from his people.
15 Work may be done for six days, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, dedicated to the LORD. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
16 The Israelites must observe the Sabbath, celebrating it throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign forever between Me and the Israelites, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.”
18 When He finished speaking with Moses on Mount Sinai, He gave him the two tablets of the testimony, stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God.
Now lets Look at the Commands pertaining to worship in the New Testament:
Romans 14:5-12 (HCSB)
5 One person considers one day to be above another day. Someone else considers every day to be the same. Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 Whoever observes the day, observes it for the honor of the Lord. Whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; and whoever does not eat, it is for the Lord that he does not eat ⌊it⌋, yet he thanks God.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.
8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 Christ died and came to life for this: that He might rule over both the dead and the living.
10 But you, why do you criticize your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before the tribunal of God.
11 For it is written: As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to Me, and every tongue will give praise to God.
12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
There is no condemnation in VERSE 5. Yes they are allowed to worship on Saturday, but that does not make them more Holy, and if Pride wells up, that Pride is sin, and does not earn us SALVATION. Likewise, I do believe one who believes every Day is alike, as I think I should Believe my attitude Toward Christ, should be Not be less than any other Day. Sure I worship on Sunday, but I talk to the LORD every day.
Here is our Worship COMMAND, notice there is not specific day mentioned:
Hebrews 10:19-25 (HCSB)
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way He has opened for us through the curtain (that is, His flesh),
21 and since we have a great high priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, our hearts sprinkled ⌊clean⌋ from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water.
23 Let us hold on to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
24 And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works,
25 not staying away from our ⌊worship⌋ meetings, as some habitually do, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day (the Rapture) drawing near.
And these Verses:
Ephesians 5:17-20 (ASV)
17 Wherefore be ye not foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunken with wine, wherein is riot, but be filled with the Spirit;
19 speaking one to another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
20 giving thanks always for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father;
-
1
- Show all
I remember reading the Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin and that had a section on the SDA church. The book was current at around 2003 I think, so things would have changed a bit since then.. but Walter wrote that the SDA had gone into different branches (like a lot of denominations).
One branch was the cult-like branch where the writings of I think it is Ellen White are held up as equal with scripture. There are plenty of weird doctrines among that. Salvation is overtly connected with doing good works. Jesus is not really God.
Another branch is one that has changed what they believe, and their statement of faith is very close to traditional mainline teachings. In this I think the book said you will find bible believing christians who are not saved by their works.
I think though both lines still have keeping the Sabaath, Old Testament style and will not eat pork.
I need to go and have another look at the book. But the main thing is SDA people aren't all believing the same thing.
One branch was the cult-like branch where the writings of I think it is Ellen White are held up as equal with scripture. There are plenty of weird doctrines among that. Salvation is overtly connected with doing good works. Jesus is not really God.
Another branch is one that has changed what they believe, and their statement of faith is very close to traditional mainline teachings. In this I think the book said you will find bible believing christians who are not saved by their works.
I think though both lines still have keeping the Sabaath, Old Testament style and will not eat pork.
I need to go and have another look at the book. But the main thing is SDA people aren't all believing the same thing.
-
1
- Show all