Three Questions for Calvinists

[PennEd]

What do you think of limited atonement and the rest of you get to keep the flames of hell burning brightly. ?

Why do you say "rest of YOU"? I've never said I was a Calvinist.

But to answer your question, No, I do not believe in limited atonement, but as for the rest, I lean WAAAY more towards God's Sovereignty than man's. I am eminently comfortable not knowing for certain about "freewill". I lose ZERO sleep over it, and trust God completely in His Grace, Wisdom, and Sovereignty to sort things out.

Most of the Scriptural arguments have been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum forever, so I'll just talk about my personal conversion.


I went to 8 yrs Catholic Grammar School. I guess I always believed, even at that time, but didn't really hear the True Gospel in those yrs. When I went to masses, I got nothing out of them, and eventually thought most of the people, and the rote ceremonies, and sermons were fake.

By the time of my late HS yrs I was DONE with all that. I then received an advanced degree in drinking and partying. 7 or 8 yrs later, my brother, who was in the Navy, and got saved there, delivered the True Gospel to me.

A couple yrs after that I miraculously found myself going to his Church one Sunday! What?!!! I was done with this Church stuff. How could I be going to one now? There is absolutely NO other explanation than the Lord put it on my heart and drew me there.

The very first time I attended, I said "woah! there's something different going on here". I later understood it to be the Presence of the Holy Spirit. He was palpable. Soon after I confessed to Jesus that I was a sinner, and that I knew He was God in the flesh, come to die and pay for my sins, and that He rose again.

ALL that was the Lord. I can't speak about anybody else, but I know He drew me, He gave me the Faith to believe Him, and HE saved me.

So I will praise Him, and love Him forever.

 

[Polar]

Why do you say "rest of YOU"? I've never said I was a Calvinist.

Oh sorry. I worded that badly. What I meant was those who are not Calvinist or as a Calvinist would say 'chosen' or 'unconditional election'. Only the elect are saved. Everyone else burns is what I was trying to say with no choice in the matter. In other words, you could not be saved from hell even if you believed if you are not one of the 'elect'.

But to answer your question, No, I do not believe in limited atonement, but as for the rest, I lean WAAAY more towards God's Sovereignty than man's. I am eminently comfortable not knowing for certain about "freewill". I lose ZERO sleep over it, and trust God completely in His Grace, Wisdom, and Sovereignty to sort things out.

Ok well if you don't believe in limited atonement, then you aren't a Calvinist cause that is one of the big 5. God's sovereignty is not in question by those who are not 'elect' according to Calvin; but not in the sense that we have no choice in being saved or in what we choose. That claim is a false flag by Calvinists against those who are not in their ranks.

I went to 8 yrs Catholic Grammar School. I guess I always believed, even at that time, but didn't really hear the True Gospel in those yrs. When I went to masses, I got nothing out of them, and eventually thought most of the people, and the rote ceremonies, and sermons were fake.

By the time of my late HS yrs I was DONE with all that. I then received an advanced degree in drinking and partying. 7 or 8 yrs later, my brother, who was in the Navy, and got saved there, delivered the True Gospel to me.

A couple yrs after that I miraculously found myself going to his Church one Sunday! What?!!! I was done with this Church stuff. How could I be going to one now? There is absolutely NO other explanation than the Lord put it on my heart and drew me there.

That's normal. Mind you, I wouldn't leave out the prayers of your brother or other Christians. You still could have said no or even if you had gone, decided not to accept Christ. A Calvinist will say you had no choice. That's the difference. I am sure you know this, the Bible is clear that God wants everyone to be saved, yet we know that is not going to happen. Salvation is not universal.

The very first time I attended, I said "woah! there's something different going on here". I later understood it to be the Presence of the Holy Spirit. He was palpable. Soon after I confessed to Jesus that I was a sinner, and that I knew He was God in the flesh, come to die and pay for my sins, and that He rose again.

Church without the Holy Spirit is dead.

ALL that was the Lord. I can't speak about anybody else, but I know He drew me, He gave me the Faith to believe Him, and HE saved me.

So I will praise Him, and love Him forever.

God draws people. Right. He does not force them or cause them to have a changed heart in order to accept Christ. Calvinists will tell you that God changes the heart first so that you will accept Christ. The heart change comes after and not before. Another major difference in how Calvinists portray salvation/the gospel.

 

[Polar]

I just did a search for the name 'sevenseas' and found a post by an older male who said he had a problem with masturbation.

This is not me. I think I had already left? or maybe it was 7seas? I don't remember.

 

[Mem]

I just did a search for the name 'sevenseas' and found a post by an older male who said he had a problem with masturbation.

This is not me. I think I had already left? or maybe it was 7seas? I don't remember.

...hmm

 

[joecoten]

Why do you say "rest of YOU"? I've never said I was a Calvinist.

But to answer your question, No, I do not believe in limited atonement, but as for the rest, I lean WAAAY more towards God's Sovereignty than man's. I am eminently comfortable not knowing for certain about "freewill". I lose ZERO sleep over it, and trust God completely in His Grace, Wisdom, and Sovereignty to sort things out.

Most of the Scriptural arguments have been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum forever, so I'll just talk about my personal conversion.


I went to 8 yrs Catholic Grammar School. I guess I always believed, even at that time, but didn't really hear the True Gospel in those yrs. When I went to masses, I got nothing out of them, and eventually thought most of the people, and the rote ceremonies, and sermons were fake.

By the time of my late HS yrs I was DONE with all that. I then received an advanced degree in drinking and partying. 7 or 8 yrs later, my brother, who was in the Navy, and got saved there, delivered the True Gospel to me.

A couple yrs after that I miraculously found myself going to his Church one Sunday! What?!!! I was done with this Church stuff. How could I be going to one now? There is absolutely NO other explanation than the Lord put it on my heart and drew me there.

The very first time I attended, I said "woah! there's something different going on here". I later understood it to be the Presence of the Holy Spirit. He was palpable. Soon after I confessed to Jesus that I was a sinner, and that I knew He was God in the flesh, come to die and pay for my sins, and that He rose again.

ALL that was the Lord. I can't speak about anybody else, but I know He drew me, He gave me the Faith to believe Him, and HE saved me.

So I will praise Him, and love Him forever.

I love testimonies!

 

[Polar]

...hmm

Well there's always one.

I'll just take it to a mod because they know who I am and who I am not and get you straightened out.

Have fun with that though if you think you should.

If I wasn't being honest, why on earth would I point that out?

 

[Mem]

Well there's always one.

I'll just take it to a mod because they know who I am and who I am not and get you straightened out.

Have fun with that though if you think you should.

If I wasn't being honest, why on earth would I point that out?

I don't care either way who you were or weren't. I didn't look it up. I just thought it was funny that you even posted that at all, and left yourself open to that at all. Try a laugh or two, it won't kill ya.

 

[crossnote]

Did the man actually invite those who gave the excuses?
Did those who made the excuses know that they were being invited?
So, if the man originally wanted them to come, why did they end up with no supper?

I don't get the connection to Calvinism.
Any here are some great Calvinist Gospel preachers:

George Whitefield
Charles Spurgeon,
Jonathan Edwards,
Martyn Lloyd Jones

 

[Polar]

I don't care either way who you were or weren't. I didn't look it up. I just thought it was funny that you even posted that at all, and left yourself open to that at all. Try a laugh or two, it won't kill ya.

I laugh when something is funny. Your little hmm was not funny and we both know that. I simply posted what I did because I did not want to be mistaken for someone else. Anyone could understand that. I don't think you would like to be mistaken for someone who posted things you know nothing about.

No reason for you to come back sarcastic and tell me to laugh. As for leaving myself open, geez excuse me I thought this was a Christian site and people would understand. I sure hope I can be forgiven for that.

 

[Mem]

I laugh when something is funny. Your little hmm was not funny and we both know that. I simply posted what I did because I did not want to be mistaken for someone else. Anyone could understand that. I don't think you would like to be mistaken for someone who posted things you know nothing about.

No reason for you to come back sarcastic and tell me to laugh. As for leaving myself open, geez excuse me I thought this was a Christian site and people would understand. I sure hope I can be forgiven for that.

I forgive you.

 

[Evmur]

Oh sorry. I worded that badly. What I meant was those who are not Calvinist or as a Calvinist would say 'chosen' or 'unconditional election'. Only the elect are saved. Everyone else burns is what I was trying to say with no choice in the matter. In other words, you could not be saved from hell even if you believed if you are not one of the 'elect'.



Ok well if you don't believe in limited atonement, then you aren't a Calvinist cause that is one of the big 5. God's sovereignty is not in question by those who are not 'elect' according to Calvin; but not in the sense that we have no choice in being saved or in what we choose. That claim is a false flag by Calvinists against those who are not in their ranks.



That's normal. Mind you, I wouldn't leave out the prayers of your brother or other Christians. You still could have said no or even if you had gone, decided not to accept Christ. A Calvinist will say you had no choice. That's the difference. I am sure you know this, the Bible is clear that God wants everyone to be saved, yet we know that is not going to happen. Salvation is not universal.



Church without the Holy Spirit is dead.



God draws people. Right. He does not force them or cause them to have a changed heart in order to accept Christ. Calvinists will tell you that God changes the heart first so that you will accept Christ. The heart change comes after and not before. Another major difference in how Calvinists portray salvation/the gospel.

"you He made ALIVE when you were dead in trespasses and sins .... while we were YET sinners Christ died for the ungodly." there are more scriptures along this vein to show that God does a work IN US before we are saved.

Again Paul says the natural man receiveth not the things of God for they are spiritually discerned. It is God who begins the good work in us.

The reason christians are STUCK in this debate and have been for 100s of years is because the devil has set up a straw man and it is the straw man which causes the offence.

Predestination and Election is not nor ever was about who is included or excluded in God's salvation plan but who should be His church, His disciples, His messengers, His body.

We are says Paul predestined and elected, called to be conformed to the image of His beloved Son. Called to be like Jesus, that's beautiful, wonderful for that's what we all want.
Again we were elect in Christ before the world began to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace. How wonderful, that's what we all want, to tell about Jesus.

Outside the foundation doctrines of salvation and the new birth these are the most precious doctrines in scripture.

They don't exclude ANYONE from being saved.

We are elected to be a city set upon a hill why? to exclude everybody? no no, that people who are lost, walking in darkness, hungry, in need of shelter may find their way to us and find the succour they desire.

 

[Shepherd]

I don't get the connection to Calvinism.
Any here are some great Calvinist Gospel preachers:

George Whitefield
Charles Spurgeon,
Jonathan Edwards,
Martyn Lloyd Jones

Because, according to "TULIP" theology, If God (metaphorically the master in the parable) had wanted them to come, from the beginning, they would have been "unconditionally elected" and could not have refused because of "irresistable grace".

 

[Polar]

I forgive you.

Oh that's wonderful. Maybe just keep in mind that laughing at a person is not the same as laughing with them.

 

[Polar]

Because, according to "TULIP" theology, If God (metaphorically the master in the parable) had wanted them to come, from the beginning, they would have been "unconditionally elected" and could not have refused because of "irresistable grace".

I don't know how Calvinists miss that. Throughout the Bible we see God speaking through His prophets. Why would He bother to do that if He just makes people do whatever He wants?

That's a crisis in logical and analytical thinking.

 

[Polar]

The reason christians are STUCK in this debate and have been for 100s of years is because the devil has set up a straw man and it is the straw man which causes the offence.

Oh I dunno. Are you saying that Calvin was the devil's little helper then? This thread concerns Calvinists not border hoppers

The rest of your post I have addressed at one time or another so not going to drag myself through it again.

 

[Mem]

The reason christians are STUCK in this debate and have been for 100s of years is because the devil has set up a straw man and it is the straw man which causes the offence.

Yesterday's 'verse of the day' included, "And I caused the widows' hearts to sing for joy." This caused me to consider the relevance of cause and effect in this subject.

Perhaps constructing a diagram would help us figure it out.

 

[Mem]

Oh that's wonderful. Maybe just keep in mind that laughing at a person is not the same as laughing with them.

I imagine you were utterly aghast upon finding that only after having admitted an identical nickname. It was a weak attempt to alleviate your dismay, which failed terribly so, I understand the subsequent flow of tomatoes. No worries.

 

[Shepherd]

"you He made ALIVE when you were dead in trespasses and sins .... while we were YET sinners Christ died for the ungodly." there are more scriptures along this vein to show that God does a work IN US before we are saved.

Again Paul says the natural man receiveth not the things of God for they are spiritually discerned. It is God who begins the good work in us.

The reason christians are STUCK in this debate and have been for 100s of years is because the devil has set up a straw man and it is the straw man which causes the offence.

Predestination and Election is not nor ever was about who is included or excluded in God's salvation plan but who should be His church, His disciples, His messengers, His body.

We are says Paul predestined and elected, called to be conformed to the image of His beloved Son. Called to be like Jesus, that's beautiful, wonderful for that's what we all want.
Again we were elect in Christ before the world began to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace. How wonderful, that's what we all want, to tell about Jesus.

Outside the foundation doctrines of salvation and the new birth these are the most precious doctrines in scripture.

They don't exclude ANYONE from being saved.

We are elected to be a city set upon a hill why? to exclude everybody? no no, that people who are lost, walking in darkness, hungry, in need of shelter may find their way to us and find the succour they desire.

That is so true. Predestination is about God's people being conformed to the image of Christ. Election, is about service and purpose: Even Christ is "elect". Neither doctrine has to do with being "chosen to salvation".

The men who were invited to the supper were invited because the Lord/Master wanted them to come. They chose not to come so ,they ended up with no supper, not because the Lord did not desire them to come, but because THEY did not desire to come. They weren't willing to give up what THEY wanted to do.

 

[Evmur]

Oh I dunno. Are you saying that Calvin was the devil's little helper then? This thread concerns Calvinists not border hoppers

The rest of your post I have addressed at one time or another so not going to drag myself through it again.

Calvin boo booed

Calvin was a great theologian and you will find his followers to be among the sweetest christians you could wish to meet.

History records the moment.

During his lectures upon the institutions of the church he used to take questions from his students. In one such session a student stood and asked the question "if God has predestined and chosen those who are to be saved, must He not have by default also predestined who He should by-pass in the matter of salvation?"

The question threw Calvin, he stopped and pondered the question a very long time until finally he had to agree with great reluctance that this must be the case. The doctrine has never been more than an assumption.

TULIP in large measure is designed to bolster and give weight to this assumption.

The good and wise practice of Protestant theology has always been that if the bible is silent upon an issue then we are to remain silent as well. We do not make doctrines up on the hoof. Certainly there is no scripture to support the view that God predestined anyone to be damned.

 

[Polar]

I imagine you were utterly aghast upon finding that only after having admitted an identical nickname. It was a weak attempt to alleviate your dismay, which failed terribly so, I understand the subsequent flow of tomatoes. No worries.

Grow up.