Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

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Shepherd said:
BUT you can choose to be part of that plan, or reject it. That freedom to choose, is all part of the plan as well.
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Really? When Paul was told that he must suffer, did he have a choice?

Acts 9:15-16 NLT - "But the Lord said, "Go, for Saul is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel. 16 And I will show him how much he must suffer for my name's sake."

Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me.
 
Backing up even further still, Genesis 36 21-23 shows that not only did the Lord control the will of the prison warden, but God also caused everything that Joseph did to be successful. Free will? Or, the control of God over the minds of those near and close to Joseph? It's pretty obvious, isn't it? God caused the warden to think of Joseph as a favorite outside of his own will.

Genesis 39:21-23 NLT - "But the LORD was with Joseph in the prison and showed him his faithful love. And the LORD made Joseph a favorite with the prison warden. Before long, the warden put Joseph in charge of all the other prisoners and over everything that happened in the prison. The warden had no more worries, because Joseph took care of everything. The LORD was with him and caused everything he did to succeed."

Question: How do you folks who refuse to believe that God is able to control our thoughts and decisions feel about this? Next, are you beginning to see the pattern that I am establishing?

I've got over a hundred more of these to go, and when we're done, perhaps things will begin to sink in.
 
In my meager opinion, I believe that the below story of king Abimelech is one of the more important stories in the Bible. It shows how much control the Lord can have over our thoughts and actions, though we don't realize it. In Red below, look at how the king gives himself credit for not "touching" Abraham's wife in a sexual way. In purple, note how God corrects the king by stating that it was He, the Lord, who did not allow Abimelech to "touch" Sarah in a sexual way.

Genesis 20:3-6 NLT - "But that night God came to Abimelech in a dream and told him, "You are a dead man, for that woman you have taken is already married!" But Abimelech had not slept with her yet, so he said, "Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation? Didn't Abraham tell me, 'She is my sister'? And she herself said, 'Yes, he is my brother.' I acted in complete innocence! My hands are clean." In the dream God responded, "Yes, I know you are innocent. That's why I kept you from sinning against me, and why I did not let you touch her."

Question: How do "you" know that God is not directing your thoughts and actions as He did with king Abimelech? How do you know, for sure, that it is you who makes your decisions? As the Bible tells us, we are either led by the Devil or by the Spirit . . . and there is no middle ground.

John 8:42-44 ESV - 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
 
FreeGrace2 said:
The one that you used to choose to post what you posted. :D
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Your definition of freewill is a contradiction in terms for you say
"freewill is a choice between available options" so everything depends upon the one who provides the options, only God has free sovereign will.

God is able to harden people's heart, He hides Himself, He closes their eyes and stops up their ears. He sends a delusion upon people to make them believe a lie.

He makes the message of the cross to be a sweet savour unto salvation to us who believe but the stench of death to them that are perishing.

You can't persuade God to save folks He doesn't want to save. You can't persuade Him to gather wheat and tares together, doves and vipers, sheep and goats. God knows what He is doing.
 
2ndTimothyGroup said:
Backing up even further still, Genesis 36 21-23 shows that not only did the Lord control the will of the prison warden, but God also caused everything that Joseph did to be successful. Free will? Or, the control of God over the minds of those near and close to Joseph? It's pretty obvious, isn't it? God caused the warden to think of Joseph as a favorite outside of his own will.

Genesis 39:21-23 NLT - "But the LORD was with Joseph in the prison and showed him his faithful love. And the LORD made Joseph a favorite with the prison warden. Before long, the warden put Joseph in charge of all the other prisoners and over everything that happened in the prison. The warden had no more worries, because Joseph took care of everything. The LORD was with him and caused everything he did to succeed."

Question: How do you folks who refuse to believe that God is able to control our thoughts and decisions feel about this? Next, are you beginning to see the pattern that I am establishing?

I've got over a hundred more of these to go, and when we're done, perhaps things will begin to sink in.
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What God does [as I understand it] is not control the warder thought by thought but He makes sure He has His man in place, a man who by his own nature will be favourable towards Joseph.

Everybody in Joseph's life is there by God's planning.
 
Evmur said:
What God does [as I understand it] is not control the warder thought by thought but He makes sure He has His man in place, a man who by his own nature will be favourable towards Joseph.

Everybody in Joseph's life is there by God's planning.
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But God [did] have control over the Egyptian's thoughts, thus there is no reason to believe differently with the prison warden. Here is the proof:

NLT - "So I will raise my hand and strike the Egyptians, performing all kinds of miracles among them. Then at last he will let you go. And I will cause the Egyptians to look favorably on you. They will give you gifts when you go so you will not leave empty-handed. Every Israelite woman will ask for articles of silver and gold and fine clothing from her Egyptian neighbors and from the foreign women in their houses. You will dress your sons and daughters with these, stripping the Egyptians of their wealth."

Clearly, God is showing His Power by causing the Egyptians, who hated the Israelites, to "strip them" of their gold and silver . . . To "plunder" them with open eyes. Exo 11:03 & 12:36 confirms this fact. Israel will plunder the Egyptians with impunity, openly, and without conflict. And once Israel has done this and has fled Egypt, only until then will Egypt awaken from their controlled minds (by God) and seek to destroy Israel. Remember, God did this to "display His Power." Romans 9:17 NIV - "For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

And what about lions and lambs? Before the Fall of Adam and Eve, the lion lay down with the lamb. They were at peace, but after the Fall, lion had a total change of thought and began hunting to kill. But there will be a day when the lion lays down with the lamb again. And again, there will be the reversal of this dramatic change of thinking. This is exactly what has happened to all of humanity . . . this is the result of the Curse of the Lord. Thought patterns are completely altered. We are either controlled by the Devil or we are controlled by the Spirit. There are no other options.

Isaiah 11:6 NLT - "In that day the wolf and the lamb will live together; the leopard will lie down with the baby goat. The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion, and a little child will lead them all."
 
FreeGrace2 said:
The one that you used to choose to post what you posted. :D
Evmur said:
Your definition of freewill is a contradiction in terms for you say
"freewill is a choice between available options" so everything depends upon the one who provides the options, only God has free sovereign will.
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Of course God provides the options. He provided the option to eat the forbidden fruit. So what is your point?

The FACT remains that free will is ONLY the opportunity to choose between what is available. Like what color to choose for the day, what cereal to eat for breakfast, to be filled with the Spirit, or to grieve/quench the Spirit. These are probably not intentional choices, but what we do will result in whether we are filled with or grieving/quenching the Spirit.

Since you disagree with my definition, you need to explain how it doesn't work.

Just because God is the ultimate provider of options doesn't support the calvinist view in any way. Man STILL has options.

God is able to harden people's heart, He hides Himself, He closes their eyes and stops up their ears. He sends a delusion upon people to make them believe a lie.
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The Bible is clear to whom He does that; those who are NOT listening, NOT paying attention.

You can't persuade God to save folks He doesn't want to save.
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This is an unbiblical statement. 1 Tim 2:3-6 says otherwise:
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

This couldn't be more clear.
 
Man has freewill to choose whom he will serve.
God still has authority to intervene in man's lives though.
It gave Israel an edge. But the heathen could still choose to join Israel.
Many Egyptians went with Israel during the Exodus.
It didn't take away the ability to man to choose at all.
In order to take away man's ability to choose, except for reprobates, God would have to be a respector of persons, which He is not.
 
Edify said:
Man has freewill to choose whom he will serve.
God still has authority to intervene in man's lives though.
It gave Israel an edge. But the heathen could still choose to join Israel.
Many Egyptians went with Israel during the Exodus.
It didn't take away the ability to man to choose at all.
In order to take away man's ability to choose, except for reprobates, God would have to be a respector of persons, which He is not.
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What passage tells us we have freewill?
 
Beckie said:
What passage tells us we have freewill?
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Josh 24:14
English Standard Version
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Deuteronomy 30:19 English Standard Version
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

Every time Israel turned from God they chose to do so.
 
Beckie said:
What passage tells us we have freewill?
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The Bible doesn't need a specific verse stating that we have free will. The Bible demonstrates free will by the offer of salvation.

Titus 2:11 is evidence. The gospel is presented, which creates a choice between "believe" or "disbelieve".
 
Edify said:
Josh 24:14
English Standard Version
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Deuteronomy 30:19 English Standard Version
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

Every time Israel turned from God they chose to do so.
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Yup seems just like in the garden mans free will is against God .
 
Deuteronomy imho very clearly sets before us the free will choice of life and death.

"The Choice of Life or Death

11“This command I am giving you today is not too difficult for you, and it is not beyond your reach. 12It is not kept in heaven, so distant that you must ask, ‘Who will go up to heaven and bring it down so we can hear it and obey?’ 13It is not kept beyond the sea, so far away that you must ask, ‘Who will cross the sea to bring it to us so we can hear it and obey?’ 14No, the message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart so that you can obey it.

15“Now listen! Today I am giving you a choice between life and death, between prosperity and disaster. 16For I command you this day to love the LORD your God and to keep his commands, decrees, and regulations by walking in his ways. If you do this, you will live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you and the land you are about to enter and occupy.

17“But if your heart turns away and you refuse to listen, and if you are drawn away to serve and worship other gods, 18then I warn you now that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live a long, good life in the land you are crossing the Jordan to occupy.

19“Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live! 20You can make this choice by loving the LORD your God, obeying him, and committing yourself firmly to him. Thisc is the key to your life. And if you love and obey the LORD, you will live long in the land the LORD swore to give your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”
 
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How can a person not see God always gives and says choose? I read where a few mentioned the garden of Eden. Well hello. It's right there in that garden. God gave instructions and they were disobeyed. We are often bad children.

What message was given when God kept telling the Israelites to choose choose choose choose this day who you are going to serve? I can only conclude that people have chosen when they create yet another op telling us we do not choose. There is beautiful logic in the Bible and when someone comes along with something that creates such division, somewhere along the journey they have missed that logic and applied human reasoning.

All the working parts must be working and if a person decides which are and are not working, from that point on the ID (ego) comes into play and we have nothing left but words that God did not say and the Holy Spirit will not illuminate.

I really do not believe or think it is complicated. But then some think knowledge has ceased, so :whistle:
 
Polar said:
How can a person not see God always gives and says choose?
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I agree. Most people see it exactly as you do, just as I once did. But as I began to consider literally every word of the entire Bible, I began to understand why Paul referred to the Mysterious Plan. In this MP, I began to see how God hid certain ideas by the things that he had us humans write. Consider the following:

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

As I began to "wake up" to the Mysterious Plan, I realized that I had to change the way that I was reading Scripture. I found that I was accepting some passages that seemed so clear, yet other passages that were in total opposition, I disregarded them completely and put them out of my mind.

This is important: One of the first ways that a person will realize that they are "waking up" is that they realize that all that they once believed (and even currently believe) could very well be wrong. To set aside dogmatic thinking that becomes forceful to others (as we are seeing in this thread), is what I would consider a wise person. Those who stop fighting and arguing . . . these are the ones who are likely awake.

So . . . what do we do with Romans 11:7-8 above. Those passages are either true or they are false. But I submit to you that Paul was correct when he quoted Isaiah, as he spoke of how the Jewish Nation was placed into a "deep sleep" by the Lord Himself. Literally, God stripped them of the ability to understand and obey. This is what the Veil of Moses is all about! When the veil was lowered, the Jews could recognize the Glory of God (representing the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ), but when the Veil was again lifted, they could no longer obey and understand. These principles are so important to know and understand.

So, we can know FOR A FACT that at bare minimum, the Jews were stripped of their free will to choose and obey.

Anyway, stick around and keep coming back to this thread. As the title states, this is a more exhaustive look at the concept and it will go on for months to get to all of the examples that I have found, logged into an Excel spreadsheet, and have cataloged. We'll "get there," but it will require patience. So hang in their, the best is yet to come.
 
Once again, I have to back up and cover the great Exodus. As we know, God hardened Pharoah's heart so that the Lord could demonstrate His almighty Power through him and his actions. Below, we find that God clearly hardens Pharaoh's heart which causes him to change his mind from desiring to let the Jews go, to then chasing after them. Again, this is so that God can demonstrate not only His ability to determine the thoughts of people, but so that He can demonstrate the Raw, Almighty Power of being able to part the Red Sea, etc.

Exodus 14:4-8 NLT - "And once again I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will chase after you. I have planned this in order to display my glory through Pharaoh and his whole army. After this the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD!" So the Israelites camped there as they were told. When word reached the king of Egypt that the Israelites had fled, Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds. "What have we done, letting all those Israelite slaves get away?" they asked. So Pharaoh harnessed his chariot and called up his troops. He took with him 600 of Egypt's best chariots, along with the rest of the chariots of Egypt, each with its commander. The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, so he chased after the people of Israel, who had left with fists raised in defiance."

What does it mean to "harden" the heart of Pharoah? It means to cause Pharaoh to change his mind and think in a murderous way . . . acts of "defiance."

So clearly, we see that Pharaoh's ability to freely choose had been stripped of him. Where did his sense of free will go? Gone! Taken! Stripped!

So again, how do each of you know that this is not happening to you today . . . right now? How do you know? Certainly, if Pharaoh were asked, he would say that he himself was responsible for his own decisions to change his mind and attempt to kill off the hated Jews. But the truth is . . . God caused him to think this way so that He, the Lord, could demonstrate His Raw, Almighty Power.

I KNOW that each reader can plainly see these things . . . so there is no sense in kicking against the goads, is there?
 
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