Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look
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Sorry I did not mean to label you, I just used the word Calvinist as that is what they are commonly called among Christians. They teach everything is predestined. My apologies.
I agree the Lord can control everything and can do as He wants, I just disagree that He controls every single little thing that happens. If He did, why would He get mad when people do certain things? Or say things like "It did not enter my mind" when people were burnt alive for Moloch?
I agree the Lord can control everything and can do as He wants, I just disagree that He controls every single little thing that happens. If He did, why would He get mad when people do certain things? Or say things like "It did not enter my mind" when people were burnt alive for Moloch?
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To some, the "terror" of the death penalty is a deterrent, but some people murder anyway. Likewise, God making you terrified doesn't change your will, He just scares you enough that you are presented with the choice: repent or keep on sinning. It is you who "devise your way". God metes out the consequences.
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. Proverbs 16:9
FreeGrace2 said:
Interesting, since your talking points are exactly what they claim.
It only means you talk just like a calvinist. That's all.
You know, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc, etc.
Interesting, since your talking points are exactly what they claim.
It only means you talk just like a calvinist. That's all.
You know, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc, etc.
FreeGrace2 said:
Have you ever read 1 Cor 15:1-11? If not, please do, and quote the verses that include these 3 vital aspects of Christ that are needed for saving faith.
Well, of course you aren't. Your mind has been made up. Why bother with FACTS?
You clearly (more so) are quite deluded.
I wasn't "testing" you, a you presume. I was interested in your realization that the passage on what is of "first importance" doesn't include your claims.
But then again, that would be FACTS, of which you are not interested in.
Have you ever read 1 Cor 15:1-11? If not, please do, and quote the verses that include these 3 vital aspects of Christ that are needed for saving faith.
Well, of course you aren't. Your mind has been made up. Why bother with FACTS?
You clearly (more so) are quite deluded.
I wasn't "testing" you, a you presume. I was interested in your realization that the passage on what is of "first importance" doesn't include your claims.
But then again, that would be FACTS, of which you are not interested in.
I guess I owe one more explanation.
I said...."But I should be patient with people on CC. I don't know them and there could be reasons why they don't appear to have normal reading comprehension skills. So I apologize if I am being too harsh. "
What I mean by this is that I don't really know people on CC and I don't know why they don't appear to have normal reading comprehension skills.
Maybe they are autistic? Maybe they have cognitive disabilities. I don't know. I should not be too shocked when someone is making an obvious mistake in how they read a sentence. What if they have brain trauma from a horrific car accident and can only use half of their body and so they spend time here for fellowship but say weird things because their brain has issues. I would feel really bad about telling them they should know better than to read that sentence that way.
I should patiently explain the text and assume that they will notice their mistakes. If they don't I should just bow out. It won't help to press the issue.
I said...."But I should be patient with people on CC. I don't know them and there could be reasons why they don't appear to have normal reading comprehension skills. So I apologize if I am being too harsh. "
What I mean by this is that I don't really know people on CC and I don't know why they don't appear to have normal reading comprehension skills.
Maybe they are autistic? Maybe they have cognitive disabilities. I don't know. I should not be too shocked when someone is making an obvious mistake in how they read a sentence. What if they have brain trauma from a horrific car accident and can only use half of their body and so they spend time here for fellowship but say weird things because their brain has issues. I would feel really bad about telling them they should know better than to read that sentence that way.
I should patiently explain the text and assume that they will notice their mistakes. If they don't I should just bow out. It won't help to press the issue.
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This is a great post. And it seems that you and I are reading the Bible in the same manner. That said, I am a "free thinker" and no longer read the teachings of others. Rather, I allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, which is why I use as many different translations as possible. Certainly, alternate translations are better than commentary from mere "men."
What nearly all have missed (about me) is that I do not necessarily believe in the lack of free will, but instead, I am somewhere between and in the middle because of texts that seem to make both sides utterly clear. Where I seem to differ from the vast majority, here, is that I acknowledge all passages that are utterly clear and obvious. The number one theme of the Bible is the Power of God. So as I have read through the Bible in a timeline, chronological order several times, I have cataloged Scriptures that demonstrate such Power, right down to how He controls even the animals and land. It is also amusing to see people become so heated over these passages . . . just amazing.
What nearly all have missed (about me) is that I do not necessarily believe in the lack of free will, but instead, I am somewhere between and in the middle because of texts that seem to make both sides utterly clear. Where I seem to differ from the vast majority, here, is that I acknowledge all passages that are utterly clear and obvious. The number one theme of the Bible is the Power of God. So as I have read through the Bible in a timeline, chronological order several times, I have cataloged Scriptures that demonstrate such Power, right down to how He controls even the animals and land. It is also amusing to see people become so heated over these passages . . . just amazing.
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I agree. I have experienced the Terror of the Lord, and while this Holy Terror does not FORCE my thinking, I must acknowledge that after experiencing it, I really had no choice but to change my thinking. Anyone who has experienced Holy Terror will realize that utter importance of getting their life in order. I have experienced Truly terrifying moments in this life, such as being afraid that I would be raped, murdered, and dumped in the Mount Baker snow only to be found the next spring as the snow melts off. That was the most terrifying moment of my life, but Holy Terror makes human terror look like kindergarten . . . Holy Terror is vastly different from any human or worldly terror. Holy Terror straightens out a person very, very quickly, for the idea of ever experiencing it again is more than a person can bear.
2 Corinthians 5:11 NKJV - "Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences."
2 Corinthians 5:11 NKJV - "Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences."
First, I have NO power whatsoever over your heart, for any purpose.
Second, my ONLY purpose is to defend truth. If that results in "hurting an crushing" your spirit, you do have a problem.
I just said that. You seem to have a really difficult time figuring out others.
Again, I don't have any such power.
Second, my ONLY purpose is to defend truth. If that results in "hurting an crushing" your spirit, you do have a problem.
I just said that. You seem to have a really difficult time figuring out others.
Again, I don't have any such power.
I skipped one of the best examples of how God controls the minds of people, and it was with the Egyptians just before Israel left their land. This is amazing Mind Control, and where is their sense of "free will"?:
Exodus 3:20-22 NLT - "So I will raise my hand and strike the Egyptians, performing all kinds of miracles among them. Then at last he will let you go. And I will cause the Egyptians to look favorably on you. They will give you gifts when you go so you will not leave empty-handed. Every Israelite woman will ask for articles of silver and gold and fine clothing from her Egyptian neighbors and from the foreign women in their houses. You will dress your sons and daughters with these, stripping the Egyptians of their wealth."
Clearly, God is showing His Power by causing the Egyptians, who hated the Israelites, to "strip them" of their gold and silver . . . To "plunder" them with open eyes. Israel will plunder the Egyptians with impunity, openly, and without conflict. And once Israel has done this and has fled Egypt, only until then will Egypt awaken from their controlled minds (by God) and seek to destroy Israel. Remember, God did this to "display His Power."
Romans 9:17 NIV - "For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Exodus 3:20-22 NLT - "So I will raise my hand and strike the Egyptians, performing all kinds of miracles among them. Then at last he will let you go. And I will cause the Egyptians to look favorably on you. They will give you gifts when you go so you will not leave empty-handed. Every Israelite woman will ask for articles of silver and gold and fine clothing from her Egyptian neighbors and from the foreign women in their houses. You will dress your sons and daughters with these, stripping the Egyptians of their wealth."
Clearly, God is showing His Power by causing the Egyptians, who hated the Israelites, to "strip them" of their gold and silver . . . To "plunder" them with open eyes. Israel will plunder the Egyptians with impunity, openly, and without conflict. And once Israel has done this and has fled Egypt, only until then will Egypt awaken from their controlled minds (by God) and seek to destroy Israel. Remember, God did this to "display His Power."
Romans 9:17 NIV - "For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
God's plan was to send His only begotten Son, to die, be buried, and rise again so that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life, to make that message known via His "elect" (chosen for a purpose) preaching the Gospel, and to "predestinate" those "elect" to be conformed to the image of Christ. No measly creation has overthrown, nor will ever overthrow that plan. BUT you can choose to be part of that plan, or reject it. That freedom to choose, is all part of the plan as well. Here it is, outlined for you in black and white...... Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: