NO falling away…Just a free ride… with Jesus.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#21
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
#22
This idea is based on a faulty interpretation of the Greek in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Apostosia is never used to describe a departure from one place to another in space, but a departure from one state to another.

2 Thessalonians poses a very significant problem for the pretribulation rapture theory. It must be made to say something it doesn't or the pretribulation rapture foundation crumbles.
The required evidence that the pre-trip rapture theory demands from 2 Thess. 2 is based on inadmissible evidence. Really there are no serious scholars who believe apostasia means to depart from one geographical or spatial location to another. There are words in the New Testament for that already and they are used frequently.

Even if you just humor the pre-tribbers and plugin the word "departure into the passage" it doesn't work with the placement of the return of Jesus, which is during the tribulation, when the "man of sin" is already in the temple of God. So there is no pre-trip gathering to Jesus, It's a just a silly theory and it causes so many debates. That's really all I wanted to say.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,134
2,164
113
#23
here is an article i found giving a lot of information about the topic --

https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/...efer-to-a-physical-departure-i-e-the-rapture/

it is written from a decidedly "rawr rawr anti-pre-trib-rapture" slant, but it's informative.


it seems the word really is "apostasy" and there is no honest way to get around that.
Yet, many go an awfully long way around it, though the dire want to avoid tribulation as motivation is perfectly understandable.

An excerpt from the article says:
(quote)
I recognize that there are other viewpoints of who actually apostatizes:
(1) A conspicuous increase in godlessness (or rebellion) within the world? (but the definite article before “rebellion” would suggest a more specific discernible event)​
(2) A significant apostasy within the professing church?​
(3) True believers lose their salvation? (but see 2 Thess 2:13).​
(4) Jewish in scope? (but the context here includes Gentiles)​
My own position is #2 because I believe the immediate context in chapter 2 of the Antichrist’s activity informs us of the identity of the rebellion. Nevertheless, this is not particularly essential to my point in this article. (end quote)

My position is #1, if limited to the choices given. But, if we may take the liberty to consider all possible angles while also entertaining any personal pet hopes, perhaps the apostasy is speaking of a revolt against the lawless one which effectively results in his exposure.[/quote]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#24
its judgment to the LOST and to the SAVED its a day of relief.
just like 2 thessalonians 1:6-7 says:

"God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels."
Take a look at the Greek wording.

Verses 7 and 8 say, rather, "ye who are troubled rest / repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels [think "7 Trumpets" and "7 Vials"--and the "angels" associated with these] IN FLAMING FIRE [see parallel language in Lam2:3-4] TAKING VENGEANCE ON [see/compare the TIME-PERIOD in Lk18:8!!] them that know not God [see also 2Th2:10-12--THOSE CERTAIN ONES], and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (this is not merely on the "singular 24-hr 'day'" of His RETURN to the earth Rev19... No. But during a specific TIME-PERIOD leading UP TO that [a TIME-PERIOD of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME--including the "GOD SHALL SEND TO THEM strong delusion SO THAT they should BELIEVE the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"...over SOME TIME--not merely on a "singular 24-hr day"])

there we have it, the timing of the 'rapture'. looky there, just like always its at the coming of the Lord but this doesnt look to be that no judgmetn type of coming we were said it would be? he comes with blazing fire with his powerful angels, thats the second coming (the real one not the imaginary rapture coming), thats when we get rest.
No, that's not "the Second Coming" that all that takes place / unfolds upon the earth.

And the text does not state "will RECEIVE rest".

It states, "...rest / repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels IN FLAMING FIRE INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON them that..." (and that's over some time, not merely the "singular 24-hr day" of His "RETURN" to the earth, when His feet touch the ground at the Rev19 point in the chronology--which is the LATER "the MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia / coming" that 2Th2:8b speaks of--when "EVERY EYE" shall SEE Him... But there's MORE TO 2Th2 [&chpt1] that is being covered than merely THAT POINT IN TIME IN THE CHRONOLOGY, do you agree??)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,909
29,289
113
#27
Personally, I see this in the republican party and the 'evangelicals' who follow it.

The left deceives the world

The right deceives believers
One mile of road = two miles of ditches ;)
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,134
2,164
113
#28
Personally, I see this in the republican party and the 'evangelicals' who follow it.

The left deceives the world

The right deceives believers
I was just rethinking my position, the above #1, a conspicuous rebellion within the world, when Matthew 24: 10-14 came to mind, specifically of "the love of many will wax cold," and believe this to be the strongest argument for the above mentioned #2 position (2) A significant apostasy within the church. Certainly, a central goal of the right is to woo believers' votes which the left doesn't seem to be much concerned with.

At any rate, any warmth from either is scarce to come by empty promises but, we can endure the cold nonetheless as if only we can trust in the promises of God and, "the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#29
here is an article i found giving a lot of information about the topic --
[... re: Alan Kurschner...]
it is written from a decidedly "rawr rawr anti-pre-trib-rapture" slant, but it's informative.
Yeah, A Kurschner was the one who, in the video he made on this subject [/ this verse] (someone posted awhile back), stated the same faux pas many others do, basically saying that "IF it were true that 'apostasia' means 'departure [/ rapture],' then we'd have the nonsensical sentence saying,

'the rapture won't happen till the rapture happens, [first]'"




... which is NOT what it is that we are pointing out about the sentence and what it is that it is actually conveying.

I explained that in a previous post, though, so won't go into all that again. = )



When I listened more carefully to HOW it is that he could even be thinking this is what we're pointing out about the text, I discerned that he was not actually reading the text / sentence [placing the word where it would go], but was instead smooshing together two separate ideas from the overall context together and making up a sentence [by his injecting the "[rapture /] departure" word TWICE in verse 3, whereas we are saying it is ONLY in v.3 ONCE--Why does he do this?... which certainly DOES make the sentence "nonsensical," but it's not what WE are pointing out about THE TEXT ITSELF. :sneaky: :sleep:]
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#30
I continually hear of the falling away of believers before Christ’s return….Hopefully this will clarify that misconception….It is not a falling away …but a departure……We be gone, baby.

A look at the word hē apostasia …translated in verse 2:3 as a falling away which has been wrongly understood as a falling away of the faithful…(turning unfaithful) believers….but that is not how this reads..

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away” and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



First understand that…. The English version prior to King James version.. translated apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as departing. The King James or authorized version was the first to translate apostasia as falling away.

Jerome's Latin translation of the vulgate around 400 AD, translate the Greek apostasia as Latin discessio ….meaning departure. The Tyndale Bible 1534, the Geneva Bible, and the Cramer Bible first published in 1537, all translated apostasia as departed ….these versions all preceded the King James version printed in 1611.

What happened with KJV …we don’t really know….. but one of the fatal mistakes the translators made was in failing to take into consideration the definite article (the) before the word apostasia which appears in the Greek text. The article may be used to point out an object, the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context…. The translators of the Authorized KJ Version looked for the definition of the word in the subsequent context…. whereas the Greek article points here to a previous context…. namely to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the air and the gathering together of the Saints to Him.

We need to look at this from the Greek point of view, not the English, if we are to discover the reason that the article is used….

the usage of the article draws our attention to the identity and special significance of this particular departure. The Greeks do not need the article to make the noun definite as used in English. In the Greek a substantive is definite without the article……The article originally came from the demonstrative pronoun such as “this” or “that” …. which calls attention with special emphasis to a designated object. Its function is to point out an object or draw attention to it….. It is used with a word that makes the word stand out distinctly. Whenever the Greeks used “the” article, it points out individual identity…. and it marks a specific object of thought.

The Greeks used the article with infinitives, adjectives, adverbs, prepositional phrases, and clauses …..or even with whole sentences….. We do not have a corresponding English usage or anything even remotely similar. When the article (= the) appears in Greek ….it always signals some special significance. And we need to look at the matter from the Greek point of view, not the English, if we are to discover the reason that the article is used.

Apostasia = departure. The cognitive neuter noun apostasia occurs three times Mat 5:31, Mat 19:7 & Mar 10:4…. of divorce, the departure of a husband and wife from each other. The word used here is a feminine noun with only one other occurrence in the New Testament… Act 21:21 regarding a departure from Moses… that is, a departure from the mosaic law. The departure referred to here in 2Thes 2 is explained in verses 2:6-8 of 2Thesas the removal of a restraint.

2Th 2:1 begins this discussion with regard to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering up together with him. This verse in chapter 2 …taken together with the previous verses in the first chapter suggest that the departure refers to the gathering together of holy ones… which precedes both the appearance of the lawless one and the day of the Lord. Therefore, we can conclude that the Bible definition of the word, apostasia is departure

And then ….when? ….When that which detains is gone….taken out of the way …departed. ….Once light is gone …darkness takes free reign.
I looked this up years ago. I got the impression that this was all debunked as soon as it came out the first time by the original authors and since that time it just keeps circulating by people who have not fact checked.

I remember seeing information about the original authors and then a few papers from Greek scholars explaining the rookie errors that the authors were making. It really left me thinking that it was not even a question in academia. No one in theological circles is presenting it as a serious possibility.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#31
….. but one of the fatal mistakes the translators made was in failing to take into consideration the definite article (the) before the word apostasia which appears in the Greek text. The article may be used to point out an object, the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context…. The translators of the Authorized KJ Version looked for the definition of the word in the subsequent context…. whereas the Greek article points here to a previous context…. namely to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the air and the gathering together of the Saints to Him.
[ ^ "enlarged" emphasis mine (plus "underlining"), above ^ ... to draw attention to a particular point...]

Correct. (y)


We need to look at this from the Greek point of view, not the English, if we are to discover the reason that the article is used….
Agreed. (y)
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,134
2,164
113
#32
'the rapture won't happen till the rapture happens, [first]'"
If it is read, "the gathering of the saints won't happen until the departure happens first?" when the argument is that the departure is equivalent to the gathering of the saints, then yes, this does certainly render the sentence nonsensical. As it is, the gathering (of the saints) and the departure (of the apostates) are speaking of two completely different demographics.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,256
3,595
113
#34
I see it as grasping just what it was that the "false claimants" were purporting (v.2).



It wasn't that the Subject in v.1 had already taken place.

IOW, the false claimants (v.2) were not purporting that.
I have to be honest, you're not making a lot of sense.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#35
^ @Mem , thank you for your comment.

Consider: The text does not convey this ("the gathering of the saints won't happen until...")--that is not how the text itself reads (v.3).


Instead, v.3 is starting off [after the introductory "cautioning / warning" part] with the words "...BECAUSE that day..." (referring back to the distinct subject OF VERSE 2--"the DOTL" time-period--the EARTHLY-located TIME-PERIOD which consists [in part] of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME--which is DISTINCT from the instantaneous noun-EVENT [located "IN THE AIR"] being referenced in v.1, which Subject PAUL is bringing forward to address the PROBLEM of the "false claim" Subject of v.2)...

TWO completely DISTINCT things, but Paul is telling how the ONE THING relates "time-wise / SEQUENCE-wise" to the OTHER THING....

... which means he is NOT saying:

--"rapture/SNATCH [IN THE AIR] / our episynagoges unto Him / THE departure' won't happen until 'rapture/SNATCH [IN THE AIR] / our episynagoges unto Him / THE departure' happens first..."




INSTEAD ^ , ONLY ONE of these can be the words in BLUE (because "he apostasia" [THE departure] is only stated ONCE in this verse)

...and the OTHER phrase / part ("3 ...that day"--re: the "false claim" Paul is telling about FROM VERSE 2) is what should be in RED (coz it is NOT THE SAME SUBJECT as that which is is worded "in BLUE")







--"rapture/SNATCH [IN THE AIR] / OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM / THE departure"

...IS NOT (not the same as)...

--"the day of the Lord" earthly-located TIME-PERIOD which will unfold upon the earth with its numerous JUDGMENTs, over SOME TIME, which v.2 is Paul informing them about the "false claimants" saying "that [it--the DOTL] "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative]"... that is, unfolding upon the earth in their present-day experience / existence (entirely "believable" b/c of the very NEGATIVE "persecutions and tribulations YE ENDURE"-2Th1:4)



Verse 2 is not telling us / the readers that the "false claimants" were purporting "that THE RAPTURE is present / is already here".
No.

Therefore, what starts out in v.3a is reaching back to address VERSE 2's Subject (the false claim "that THE DAY OF THE LORD IS PRESENT"... not that the Rapture is present [v.1's Subject that PAUL IS BRINGING to address the problem of the "false claim" he's telling of in v.2])



Conflating these two distinct things (as most tend to do) sets one off on the wrong footing, in interpreting this passage, leading one far afield of what Paul is actually conveying here.






[he's providing the SEQUENCE between these TWO distinct things... and he repeats this SEQUENCE 3x in this passage... which agrees also with all other passages covering this same Subject, elsewhere in Scripture (showing this SAME SEQUENCE)]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#36
I have to be honest, you're not making a lot of sense.
Yeah, the "false claimants" Paul is pointing out in verse 2, were NOT saying, "the RAPTURE [IN THE AIR] is present / is already here" (the Subject PAUL is bringing to bear [v.1] on the matter of the "false claim" [v.2]... that false claim being "THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative; v.2]"... that is, ALREADY UNFOLDING upon the earth, WHERE it is ONLY EVER slated to and shown to take place)



Neither were they purporting:

--"that JESUS HIMSELF is present / is already here"

--"that His KINGDOM-age is present / is already here"


(none of those three things are what the false claim [v.2] was purporting "is present / is already here")
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#37
Why do almost all of the English translations, even those that were produced by large committees of expert Greek Scholars who translated from the manuscripts (and not from previous translations) translate it as rebellion or apostacy?

That is the Elephant in the room. Call me a skeptic but I doubt that you know Koine Greek. Am I right?

Therefore you are trying to quote a source or rephrase a source. You should cite your source. I have a feeling that they don't know Koine Greek either. I don't know the rules of Koine Greek so I rely on the experts that do and some of the best in the world serve on these committees to translate these English translations such as the ESV, NIV, CSB, from the original manuscripts in extant and understand all the rules of syntax and they don't agree with what you are proposing. So... there is that.

New International Version
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

New Living Translation
Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction.

English Standard Version
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Berean Study Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

Berean Literal Bible
No one should deceive you in any way, because it is not until the apostasy shall have come first, and the man of lawlessness shall have been revealed--the son of destruction,

King James Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

New King James Version
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

New American Standard Bible
No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

NASB 1995
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

NASB 1977
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Amplified Bible
Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first [that is, the great rebellion, the abandonment of the faith by professed Christians], and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed],

Christian Standard Bible
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

American Standard Version
let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Let no man deceive you by any means, to the effect that surely no revolt will first come and The Man of Sin, The Son of Destruction, be revealed,

Contemporary English Version
But don't be fooled! People will rebel against God. Then before the Lord returns, the wicked one who is doomed to be destroyed will appear.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

Good News Translation
Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until the final Rebellion takes place and the Wicked One appears, who is destined to hell.

International Standard Version
Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.

Literal Standard Version
do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because if the departure may not come first, the man of lawlessness may [not] be revealed—the son of destruction,

New American Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition,

NET Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

New Revised Standard Version
Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.

New Heart English Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Weymouth New Testament
Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,

World English Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

Young's Literal Translation
let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,559
654
113
#38
The Triple G has reared its ugly head once more.
I can't mention what most know it as as it is a no-no.
So I call them the Greasy Grace Gang.;)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#39
A look at the word hē apostasia …translated in verse 2:3 as a falling away which has been wrongly understood as a falling away of the faithful…(turning unfaithful) believers….but that is not how this reads..
It is not the faithful who fall away, but the apostates (false Christians). And that is exactly what apostasy means -- a departure from the true Gospel and Bible truth. A departure from the Bible itself.
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,559
654
113
#40
It is not the faithful who fall away, but the apostates (false Christians). And that is exactly what apostasy means -- a departure from the true Gospel and Bible truth. A departure from the Bible itself.
I cannot agree that they're false christians. More like deceived, backslidden christians.
After all, a false christian is a sinner, & has nothing to fall away from.
This is why the epistles give all kinds of warnings about the church being deceived.