Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Magenta]

While on this earth..no one is saved.

Job 19:25-27a
Yes, even Job knew he was saved!

 

[BeeThePeace]

While on this earth..no one is saved.
Born again yes...if God's commandments are followed.
"
your pope"....LOL...I am not catholic...."

Your comments have nothing to do with OSAS.

That is a lie!

And at this point your commitment to trolling, blasphemy, and heresy against the faith and as violates the rules of this forum needs to be reviewed.

 

[BeeThePeace]

Hi Magenta. 150 thousand? "50 Million"? I'm sorry, but those numbers are completely fabricated, and are called "the Black Legend" by secular historians: "The Black Legend of the Spanish Inquisition is the hypothesis of the existence of a series of myths and fabrications about the Spanish Inquisition used as propaganda against the Spanish Empire in a time of strong military, commercial and political rivalry between European powers, starting in the 16th century. According to its advocates, Protestant Revolutionary propaganda depicted inquisitions of Catholic monarchs as the epitome of human barbarity with fantastic scenes of tortures, witch hunting and evil friars. Proponents of the theory see it as part of the Spanish Black Legend propaganda, as well as of Anti-Catholic propaganda, and one of the most recurrent Black Legend themes.

Historian Edward Peters defines it as: a body of myths and legends that between the sixteenth and twentieth centuries, established the perceived character of inquisitorial tribunals that have influenced all subsequent attempts to recover the historical reality.[1]"

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend_of_the_Spanish_Inquisition

The actual number of those who were executed by the Inquisition is probably around 3000 across 300 years - about 10 a year.

The Reformation began in 1517. For about 100-150 years after it, both sides practiced intolerance. Soon, religious liberty began.

The Catholic Colony of Maryland practiced it. From the earlier link: "8. Catholic Maryland: The First Tolerant American Colony

A. Patrick O'Hare

• "Catholics . . . were the first in America to proclaim and to practice civil and religious liberty . . . The colony established by Lord Baltimore in Maryland granted civil and religious liberty to all who professed different beliefs . . . At that very time the Puritans of New England and the Episcopalians of Virginia were busily engaged in persecuting their brother Protestants for consciences' sakes and the former were . . . hanging `witches'." (50:300-01)

B. Martin Marty (P)

• "Baltimore . . . welcomed, among other English people, even the Catholic-hating Puritans (8) . . . In January of 1691 . . . the new regime brought hard times for Catholics as the Protestants closed their church, forbade them to teach in public . . . but . . . the little outpost of practical Catholic tolerance had left its mark of promise on the land." (9)

C. John Tracy Ellis

• "For the first time in history . . . all churches would be tolerated, and . . . none would be the agent of the government . . . Catholics and Protestants side by side on terms of equality and toleration unknown in the mother country . . . The effort proved vain; for . . . the Puritan element . . . October, 1654, repealed the Act of Toleration and outlawed the Catholics . . . condemning ten of them to death, four of whom were executed . . . From . . . 1718 down to the outbreak of the Revolution, the Catholics of Maryland were cut off from all participation in public life, to say nothing of the enactments against their religious services and . . . schools for Catholic instruction . . . During the half-century the Catholics had governed Maryland they had not been guilty of a single act of religious oppression." (10)

D. Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (P)

• "In the 17th century the most notable instances of practical toleration were the colonies of Maryland, founded by Lord Baltimore in 1632 for persecuted Catholics, which offered asylum also to Protestants, and of Rhode Island, founded by Roger Williams." (78:1383)"

Your post is dishonest because you omitted the very first part of Wikipedias warning against this article.

Which reads thusly:

This article is about the black legend concerning the Spanish inquisition. For the general historiographical phenomenon, see Black legend. For the black legend concerning Spain and its empire, see Black legend (Spain).

The neutrality of this article is disputed. Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until conditions to do so are met. (July 2018) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)


If you're seeking to express the truth you do not omit that fact!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think we have to maybe consider the pov of a Roman Catholic here.

I'm interested in what the Bible says, not various religions.

The Roman Catholic is indoctrinated if you will into the church from birth, if their parents are Roman Catholic. They're baptized into the church as infants. They're indoctrinated into the church as infants by being instructed in the Catechism (A collection of questions and answers that are used to teach people about the Christian religion),

Part of the agreement a Roman Catholic enters into when joining the church is to be in accord with the Catechism. The Catechism asserts the RCC is infallible. I.E. perfect and never wrong.

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

To be clear, the RCC insures their congregation trust the church, have faith, in the church as emissary's between themselves and God.
To go against the teachings of the church is not only going against the church, and by affiliation per their catechism, God. Which would then imperil their state of grace. Which is secured by compliance to the church Catechism.

It is therefore an insulor covenant the individual Roman Catholic is committed to. Not by their own free will, in most cases. But because they are inducted into the church as infants forward.

And this hardwiring insures in most cases they believe the church is absolute in dictating as emissary of God what it means to be Catholic.

Ask a Catholic if they are Christian. Likely, the answer will be, they are a Catholic. Later, if at all, they'll say they are a Christian.

I don't see anything profitable here.

This is offered to give a bit of insight when encountering a Roman Catholic in these discussions.

My approach is to share the Bible. Without considering their theology. If their theology aligns with the Bible, they should be able to follow. If their theology is different from the Bible's they STILL have an intellect with which to grasp and process information.

The first allegiance of a Roman Catholic, differentiated from the definition and understanding of the word Catholic, meaning universal, is the church.

Excerpted from the Catechism linked earlier.

"III. The Knowledge of God According to the Church
36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God's revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created "in the image of God".12
37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:
Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. the human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13
38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God's revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also "about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error".14 "

I don't know why all this emphasis on the RCC.

 

[peldom10]

That is a lie!

And at this point your commitment to trolling, blasphemy, and heresy against the faith and as violates the rules of this forum needs to be reviewed.

Then show me?

The other request to show me is outstanding.

 

[peldom10]

That is a lie!

And at this point your commitment to trolling, blasphemy, and heresy against the faith and as violates the rules of this forum needs to be reviewed.

How can you be saved when in fact God is going to judge you after death? You will be explaining to Him of how you are saved and He is yet to judge you.
Good luck with that one.
Think...for a change.
we are ...born again... while here on earth.
Study scriptures.

 

[Magenta]

How can you be saved when in fact God is going to judge you after death? You will be explaining to Him of how you are saved and He is yet to judge you.
Good luck with that one.
Think...for a change.

There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

You are confused. Our works are judged. We have already passed from death to life.

Oh, that is for those who are already saved.

You say that excludes you.

From 2 Corinthians 5:17 and Romans 6:13

 

[Runningman]

I think we have to maybe consider the pov of a Roman Catholic here.

The Roman Catholic is indoctrinated if you will into the church from birth, if their parents are Roman Catholic. They're baptized into the church as infants. They're indoctrinated into the church as infants by being instructed in the Catechism (A collection of questions and answers that are used to teach people about the Christian religion),

Part of the agreement a Roman Catholic enters into when joining the church is to be in accord with the Catechism. The Catechism asserts the RCC is infallible. I.E. perfect and never wrong.

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

To be clear, the RCC insures their congregation trust the church, have faith, in the church as emissary's between themselves and God.
To go against the teachings of the church is not only going against the church, and by affiliation per their catechism, God. Which would then imperil their state of grace. Which is secured by compliance to the church Catechism.

It is therefore an insulor covenant the individual Roman Catholic is committed to. Not by their own free will, in most cases. But because they are inducted into the church as infants forward.

And this hardwiring insures in most cases they believe the church is absolute in dictating as emissary of God what it means to be Catholic.

Ask a Catholic if they are Christian. Likely, the answer will be, they are a Catholic. Later, if at all, they'll say they are a Christian.

This is offered to give a bit of insight when encountering a Roman Catholic in these discussions.

The first allegiance of a Roman Catholic, differentiated from the definition and understanding of the word Catholic, meaning universal, is the church.

Excerpted from the Catechism linked earlier.

"
III. The Knowledge of God According to the Church
36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God's revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created "in the image of God".12
37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:
Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. the human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13
38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God's revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also "about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error".14 "

Really it applies to anyone who has been brainwashed from an early age into an ideology. It happens with religious institutions, cults, and even secular schools of thought. In a similar way, our upbringing and life experiences shape our worldview and our biases and no two people seem to be exactly the same. So it's difficult to discern a universal truth. That's why we have thousands of Christian denominations, Catholics, various other religions, and an untold number of spiritual paths since the dawn of mankind.

 

[Runningman]

That is a lie!

And at this point your commitment to trolling, blasphemy, and heresy against the faith and as violates the rules of this forum needs to be reviewed.

It's an affront to your faith not the faith. This forum isn't a self-referencing echo chamber where there is complete agreement on all points across the board. If you have any experience with message boards, which I am sure you do based off of reading your comment history, you'll know that all forums thrive on a bit of diversity.

There is little to no discussion or critical thinking where everyone agrees with one another.

If you want complete and total mindless agreement then go find a church. I am sure there are many that will oblige you or let you oblige them.

 

[BeeThePeace]

It's an affront to your faith not the faith. This forum isn't a self-referencing echo chamber where there is complete agreement on all points across the board. If you have any experience with message boards, which I am sure you do based off of reading your comment history, you'll know that all forums thrive on a bit of diversity.

There is little to no discussion or critical thinking where everyone agrees with one another.

If you want complete and total mindless agreement then go find a church. I am sure there are many that will oblige you or let you oblige them.

Personal attacks that actually reflect your state of mind as you attempt to project them on me, or others, demonstrate your lack of credibility .

It is a threat that you now choose to follow me after this. Allowing for the inference you intend to continue your affront.

 

[BeeThePeace]

How can you be saved when in fact God is going to judge you after death? You will be explaining to Him of how you are saved and He is yet to judge you.
Good luck with that one.
Think...for a change.
we are ...born again... while here on earth.
Study scriptures.

It's tragic that this is how you choose to waste your time.

You will be judged. And for every word you've ever said. Especially when blaspheming the holy spirit.


The Saints in Christ are accorded a judgement that shall be quite different. All that we did in service to the kingdom shall be reviewed and we shall be rewarded accordingly.

Those dead in their sins are cast into outer darkness, or Hell.

Christians face no such judgement. Therefore, it is you who need to STOP.

 

[BeeThePeace]

I'm interested in what the Bible says, not various religions.


I don't see anything profitable here.


My approach is to share the Bible. Without considering their theology. If their theology aligns with the Bible, they should be able to follow. If their theology is different from the Bible's they STILL have an intellect with which to grasp and process information.


I don't know why all this emphasis on the RCC.

It helps, if you are going to attempt to rebutt a Román Catholic on this forum and their pov to know from when e they derived said pov.

In other words, if you don't know what you're talking about you don't stand to make a cogent rebuttal.

When you have no interest in knowing why a RC postulates their rebuttal to the Protestant doctrine, you appear not to know there are two doctrinal communities in Christendom, you should know that the reason a Roman Catholic disagrees with Protestant doctrine.

Furthermore, when you cite the Bible you are also unaware the Roman Cathic does not use the Protestant bible. They use a bible that is approved by the Vatican and as such is quite different.

Therefore, when you claim to only be concerned with the bible and what it says, you err when you do not know when addressing a Roman Catholic that they are relying on a different one than yourself.

Why all this emphasis on the RCC?
They've entered this community and are engaging Protestants here as they argue against our understanding of scripture using their church indoctrination in rebuttal. Or have you not noticed?

When you have no interest in learning whom you are talking to you'll make a poor showing of what you're talking about when you don't understand why eternal irrevocable Salvation is foreign to the Roman Catholic.

Catholic Education Resource Center: Catholic and Protestant Bibles: What is the Difference?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

While on this earth..no one is saved.
Born again yes...if God's commandments are followed.
"
your pope"....LOL...I am not catholic...."

Your comments have nothing to do with OSAS.

“Born again” is born in spirit, that’s the same as saved. If you believe in water baptism and any form of work based salvation, then Peter is your answer. There was nothing he did that could earn him salvation, even Matthias, the 12th apostle he picked was irrelevant, because Jesus chose Saul of Tarsus.

 

[Runningman]

Personal attacks that actually reflect your state of mind as you attempt to project them on me, or others, demonstrate your lack of credibility .

It is a threat that you now choose to follow me after this. Allowing for the inference you intend to continue your affront.

Using the site the way it’s intended and designed by commenting benignly to other users and using the provided follow button are now attacks and threats? You live in a strange, dark, world. Thoughts and prayers for you.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

One doesn't need to go to the "pope" regarding salvation.

In FACT, Peter WAS saved way before he denied Jesus 3 times. Proof? Sure.

John 6-
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

Those who believe that Peter wasn't saved until Pentecost simply do not believe the Bible. Or know it.

This is what Paul taught believers in Gal 3
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Furthermore, Jesus breathed on the disciples/apostles the Holy Spirit before He ascended to heaven.

John 20-
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe that Peter didn't receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on THEM?

Believers receive the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe the gospel message are are saved, regenerated (born again) and justified.

Do I believe that Peter didn't receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on him? Yes I do. Both this and the promise of the Helper refer to the Pentecost, that was a big day on God’s schedule for the birth of the church. He didn’t receive the Helper twice, and neither does any one of us. In the next chapter, he and the other disciples went back to fishing - his old profession BEFORE he met Jesus. In modern terms, he was backsliding. That was his old fleshly comfort zone, not the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BeeThePeace]

Using the site the way it’s intended and designed by commenting benignly to other users and using the provided follow button are now attacks and threats? You live in a strange, dark, world. Thoughts and prayers for you.

First you launch into a irrational criticism aimed at me as a personal attack that claimed I was seeking an echo chamber, etc.... Which had zero to do with my observation you quoted in order to launch.

And now this. Another personal attack that claims I'm strange for recognizing you were launching into personal attack earlier.

You need pray for healing of what makes you to be this way.

 

[peldom10]

“Born again” is born in spirit, that’s the same as saved. If you believe in water baptism and any form of work based salvation, then Peter is your answer. There was nothing he did that could earn him salvation, even Matthias, the 12th apostle he picked was irrelevant, because Jesus chose Saul of Tarsus.

ed...saved...is not the same as born again.

 

[arthurfleminger]

So many 'back and forths' reiterations of arguments pro and con for OSAS, with no change of opinion. Minds/hearts are set in stone and everyone is reittering their arguments over and over with no change of mind.

Hearts are set in stone, half of the posters on this thread are right and half are dead wrong. God will judge.

This is the problem with trying to interpret Scripture on your own, you become your own 'little infallible pope' and have closed your mind to all who disagree with you.

You want God's word, Scripture, to tell you what you want to believe is true, not what God designates as truth. Many on this thread have twisted God's word/Scripture to be their own word and not God's.

 

[Runningman]

First you launch into a irrational criticism aimed at me as a personal attack that claimed I was seeking an echo chamber, etc.... Which had zero to do with my observation you quoted in order to launch.

And now this. Another personal attack that claims I'm strange for recognizing you were launching into personal attack earlier.

You need pray for healing of what makes you to be this way.

Um no. I thought your comments were interesting and I wanted to share my thoughts on them. If you don't value my thoughts you don't need to falsely accuse you of attacking you, gaslight me, or attack my character as that is not necessary. You can just simply ignore me or not comment.

However, now you take this to an entirely new level and accuse me of attacking and threatening you which is obviously your problem. Yes that is strange to me, I didn't say you are strange but rather the world you live in is strange. I think if you see attacks and threats in benign comments from random strangers on a message board then there is no clear way to interact with you as a normal human being. I will gracefully abandon this conversation with you.

Thoughts and prayers for your healing.

 

[arthurfleminger]

So many 'back and forths' reiterations of arguments pro and con for OSAS, with no change of opinion. Minds/hearts are set in stone and everyone is reittering their arguments over and over with no change of mind.

Hearts are set in stone, half of the posters on this thread are right and half are dead wrong. God will judge.

This is the problem with trying to interpret Scripture on your own, you become your own 'little infallible pope' and have closed your mind to all who disagree with you.

You want God's word, Scripture, to tell you what you want to believe is true, not what God designates as truth. Many on this thread have twisted God's word/Scripture to be their own word and not God's.

So many 'back and forths' reiterations of arguments pro and con for OSAS, with no change of opinion. Minds/hearts are set in stone and everyone is reittering their arguments over and over with no change of mind.

Hearts are set in stone, half of the posters on this thread are right and half are dead wrong. God will judge.

This is the problem with trying to interpret Scripture on your own, you become your own 'little infallible pope' and have closed your mind to all who disagree with you.

You want God's word, Scripture, to tell you what you want to believe is true, not what God designates as truth. Many on this thread have twisted God's word/Scripture to be their own word and not God's.

Shame on so many who try and twist God's word to fit their thoughts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thus you have twisted God's word to become your word, a very poor choice.