Hi Free Grace. Thanks for your responses. Happy to continue.
I want to clarify one thing, since I see you mentioned it in your response to Magenta. Earlier the views of John Calvin and St. Augustine were discussed. Both wrote about "the perseverance of the saints" but meant, imho, different things. For Calvin said, in essence, "if you are justified, you cannot but persevere; and therefore, if you did not persevere, you were never justified". This is what we call OSAS. What St. Augustine said was different. It can be summed up or paraphrased like this: "When you believe in Christ and are baptized, you pass from death to life and are justified. After you are justified, you must pray for perseverance. If you receive what you pray for, you will persevere. Those who persevere in justifying faith and grace are saved". Both speak of perseverance, but in different senses.
To quote directly: "Chapter 9.— When Perseverance is Granted to a Person, He Cannot But Persevere.
Now, moreover, when the saints say, Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Matthew 6:13 what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness? For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them — which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God's gift, since it is asked of Him — that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm
I also agree, btw, that we cannot take a single verse and make a doctrine of it. We have to study the whole of Scripture before formulating a doctrine. I agree with you that the NT exhorts us to persevere in many places, but that doesn't mean it's not a gift. Want a verse for that? How about Phil 1:6: "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."
God began the Good Work of Justification in us, by His Grace, and He Himself will bring it to completion in us, by His Grace, if we co-operate. That's what St. Paul is teaching us here.
Now, to your post. I see that you quoted all of Mat 24:1-13. But that doesn't take anything away from the strength of the conclusion that "perseverance to the end" is necessary for final salvation. If anything, it's even clearer in context. Notice: "At that time many will turn away from the faith" (vs 10) while "but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." (vs 13).
These are two different sets of people. Let's call them Set A and Set B.
Set A: Receive Justification by Grace through Faith. But do not persevere in the Faith. Turn away from it. Are you saying set A are still saved? If so, that contradicts Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." How can anyone go to Heaven who doesn't have the Faith?
Set B: Receive Justification by Grace through Faith. Also receive Perseverance by Grace through Prayer. These never turn away from the Faith and are saved. It is these of whom the Lord says that no one shall ever snatch them from His Hand and His Father's Hand. It means He is preserving them by His Grace, He is causing and helping them to persevere. Thats why I say Perseverance is His Gift.
So I don't reject Jn 10:28. I accept it wholeheartedly. While one verse is not sufficient to build a doctrine, any doctrine that rejects even one verse of Scripture is surely wrong. I believe Jn 10:28 APPLIES to those in Set B and not in Set A. That's the only way to reconcile all the passages. So for e.g. among verses we discusses, Heb 10:29 speaks of those sanctified but lost. Jn 15:2 of branches that fell away.
Would you like to address either of these passages now? I hope that covers all of your post, Free Grace. God Bless you.
In Christ,
Xavier.
I want to clarify one thing, since I see you mentioned it in your response to Magenta. Earlier the views of John Calvin and St. Augustine were discussed. Both wrote about "the perseverance of the saints" but meant, imho, different things. For Calvin said, in essence, "if you are justified, you cannot but persevere; and therefore, if you did not persevere, you were never justified". This is what we call OSAS. What St. Augustine said was different. It can be summed up or paraphrased like this: "When you believe in Christ and are baptized, you pass from death to life and are justified. After you are justified, you must pray for perseverance. If you receive what you pray for, you will persevere. Those who persevere in justifying faith and grace are saved". Both speak of perseverance, but in different senses.
To quote directly: "Chapter 9.— When Perseverance is Granted to a Person, He Cannot But Persevere.
Now, moreover, when the saints say, Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Matthew 6:13 what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness? For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them — which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God's gift, since it is asked of Him — that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm
I also agree, btw, that we cannot take a single verse and make a doctrine of it. We have to study the whole of Scripture before formulating a doctrine. I agree with you that the NT exhorts us to persevere in many places, but that doesn't mean it's not a gift. Want a verse for that? How about Phil 1:6: "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."
God began the Good Work of Justification in us, by His Grace, and He Himself will bring it to completion in us, by His Grace, if we co-operate. That's what St. Paul is teaching us here.
Now, to your post. I see that you quoted all of Mat 24:1-13. But that doesn't take anything away from the strength of the conclusion that "perseverance to the end" is necessary for final salvation. If anything, it's even clearer in context. Notice: "At that time many will turn away from the faith" (vs 10) while "but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." (vs 13).
These are two different sets of people. Let's call them Set A and Set B.
Set A: Receive Justification by Grace through Faith. But do not persevere in the Faith. Turn away from it. Are you saying set A are still saved? If so, that contradicts Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." How can anyone go to Heaven who doesn't have the Faith?
Set B: Receive Justification by Grace through Faith. Also receive Perseverance by Grace through Prayer. These never turn away from the Faith and are saved. It is these of whom the Lord says that no one shall ever snatch them from His Hand and His Father's Hand. It means He is preserving them by His Grace, He is causing and helping them to persevere. Thats why I say Perseverance is His Gift.
So I don't reject Jn 10:28. I accept it wholeheartedly. While one verse is not sufficient to build a doctrine, any doctrine that rejects even one verse of Scripture is surely wrong. I believe Jn 10:28 APPLIES to those in Set B and not in Set A. That's the only way to reconcile all the passages. So for e.g. among verses we discusses, Heb 10:29 speaks of those sanctified but lost. Jn 15:2 of branches that fell away.
Would you like to address either of these passages now? I hope that covers all of your post, Free Grace. God Bless you.
In Christ,
Xavier.
