Who Justifieth the Ungodly

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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
The OT Prophets/ Saints were Justified by Faith
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yep ... Ephesians 4:5 tells us there is one faith. The same faith in OT as in NT.


Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ




brightfame52 said:
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference
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righteousness of God ... unto all and upon all them that believe … :cool:
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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
They for whom He shed His Blood
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brightfame52 said:
All for whom He shed His Bloor
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brightfame52 said:
They for whom The blood was shed for
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brightfame52 said:
All for whom Christ died
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brightfame52 said:
that Resurrection gave Evidecnce of all for whom He died
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brightfame52 said:
Those Christ died for
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brightfame52 said:
all for whom Christ shed His Blood for
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yikes, brightfame52 your erroneous dogma has you making distinctions not intended by the Author of Scripture.


John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
they were Justified by His Blood before it was shed in time at Calvary, and they by the Spirit of God was given Faith inHis Blood
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Read the verses again, brightfame52. Where does Rom 3:24-25 state "they by the Spirit of God was given Faith"

Romans 3:

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God


Vs 25 says "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood".

The verse does not state (as you claim) "they by the Spirit of God was given faith". Quit superimposing your erroneous dogma on what is written in Scripture. Just read Scripture as written.

Again, faith is inherent within all of mankind. If utilized properly, and a person does not restrain the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18), that person receives the blessing promised by God.

On the other hand, if faith is not utilized properly, and a person restrains the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18), that person receives the consequence promised by God.


The issue is not "do you have faith". All of mankind, all descendants of Adam, have faith.

The issue is "in what ... or more accurately in Whom ... does a person place his/her faith".

When folks place their faith in lies ... or when they are told truth and restrain the truth ... they receive the consequence of their unbelief.
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VARob

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Magenta said:
Then there is no contradiction. God making it possible is not Him forcing anyone.
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I would agree, but I don't see anyplace in the Bible where people were unable to believe until God made it possible.
 
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VARob

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Magenta said:
Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
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Notice the future tense. If people were unable to believe until God circumcised their hearts, how did all the people who believed in God prior to Moses do so? And look at the context (vv 3, 4). God is talking about gathering the Jews from all over the world. While that verse may have had a partial fulfillment in Moses' time, I think it will ultimately be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom. I don't think that verse supports the position that God has to enable a person to believe before they can.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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If there are natural men who cannot know the things of the spirit of God, that proves that God did not enable everyone to believe (which I think is what we're talking about.. :) ). But God wants everyone to be saved. Therefore everyone has to have the capacity to believe, and I believe they do.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Man knows both good and evil, and can choose between the two.

Specifically concerning 1 Cor 2:14, "natural" man is psuchikos and it means soulish, or worldly. People who are worldly minded can't understand the things of the Spirit. If they chose to not be so soulish, or worldly minded, they would understand.
 
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reneweddaybyday

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1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor 2:14 speaks of the things of the Spirit of God. That is not referring to Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2) which Paul taught to the church at Corinth.

The things of the Spirit of God in 1 Cor 2:14 refers to the wisdom of God in a mystery (1 Cor 2:7) which Paul was able to discuss among them that are perfect (perfect meaning those who were more spiritually mature – 1 Cor 2:6).

1 Cor 2:1-5 tells us the things Paul taught to those who were not yet born again and those who were born again yet still young in faith:

1 Corinthians 2:

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.


In vs 2, Jesus Christ, and Him crucified is the gospel. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16). Once a person believes the gospel, he/she is born again; however, those still young in faith are to feed on the sincere milk of the word that [they] may grow thereby (1 Peter 2:2).


In 1 Cor 2:6 and following, Paul tells us about the things which he taught those who were more spiritually mature ... the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom.

It is these deep things of God (1 Cor 2:10) to which 1 Cor 2:14 refers when it speaks of the natural man's inability to receive:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


I do not believe the gospel is difficult for natural man to comprehend. The Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins, He was buried and rose again the third day. That is not a difficult concept. The natural man hears the gospel and he/she either believes the gospel and is born again or he/she suppresses the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) and is not born again.


The wisdom of God in a mystery which if the princes of this world had known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory (1 Cor 2:6-8), is a more complex spiritual truth which is addressed in 1 Cor 2:14 which the natural man does not comprehend.
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brightfame52

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What the resurrection of Christ means !

1 Cor 15:17

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

If the resurrection of Christ didnt mean that those He died for are Justified from all their sins, then there would not have been any truth of Justification for Faith to receive and embrace, and faith would have been worthless, but the resurrection of Christ was a public exoneration that all those He died for are clear, of any accusation; free from guilt or blame before the Justice of God ! Rom 4:25

Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

The word Justification here is the greek word dikaiōsis and means:

I.
the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

II.
abjuring to be righteous, justification

Thats why for anyone Christ died for and was raised in behalf of, for anyone to die in their sins and unbelief, God is guilty of injustice and punishing eternally a Righteous person free from guilt and supposedly acceptable to Him !

At His resurrection it was a deliverance from out of the prison of death, declaring that by His death He hath received full satisfaction or propitiation, for all those sins and offences that Christ as Surety Shepherd haid charged to Him, meaning all the sins of the Elect or His Sheep, for remember He rose from the dead as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

So it is only reasonable to conclude that He died as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Jn 10:11,15 ! So it was their sins that He was delivered for Rom 4:25;8:32 ! The resurrection of Christ means the Justification of all for whom He died !


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VARob

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brightfame52 said:
The resurrection of Christ means the Justification of all for whom He died !
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Christ died for everyone. People have to hear and decide to believe the gospel in order to be saved, something anyone can do.
 
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


No faith = no pleasing God.


Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
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Christ had Faith and pleased God in behalf of those He lived and died for, True Believers have been Justified before God by the Faith of Christ or Faithfulness of Christ.
 
V

VARob

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reneweddaybyday said:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor 2:14 speaks of the things of the Spirit of God. That is not referring to Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2) which Paul taught to the church at Corinth.

The things of the Spirit of God in 1 Cor 2:14 refers to the wisdom of God in a mystery (1 Cor 2:7) which Paul was able to discuss among them that are perfect (perfect meaning those who were more spiritually mature – 1 Cor 2:6).

1 Cor 2:1-5 tells us the things Paul taught to those who were not yet born again and those who were born again yet still young in faith:

1 Corinthians 2:

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.


In vs 2, Jesus Christ, and Him crucified is the gospel. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16). Once a person believes the gospel, he/she is born again; however, those still young in faith are to feed on the sincere milk of the word that [they] may grow thereby (1 Peter 2:2).


In 1 Cor 2:6 and following, Paul tells us about the things which he taught those who were more spiritually mature ... the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom.

It is these deep things of God (1 Cor 2:10) to which 1 Cor 2:14 refers when it speaks of the natural man's inability to receive:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


I do not believe the gospel is difficult for natural man to comprehend. The Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins, He was buried and rose again the third day. That is not a difficult concept. The natural man hears the gospel and he/she either believes the gospel and is born again or he/she suppresses the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) and is not born again.


The wisdom of God in a mystery which if the princes of this world had known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory (1 Cor 2:6-8), is a more complex spiritual truth which is addressed in 1 Cor 2:14 which the natural man does not comprehend.
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This is pretty good, RDBD. But while the natural man has the capacity to hear and believe the gospel, if he's too "natural", IOW too preoccupied with the things of the world, the gospel will be foolishness to him.
 
V

VARob

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brightfame52 said:
Christ had Faith and pleased God in behalf of those He lived and died for, True Believers have been Justified before God by the Faith of Christ or Faithfulness of Christ.
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"Those he lived and died for" is a favorite Calvinist expression...

Christ lived and died for everyone.
 
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
:rolleyes: ... you're continuing to make stuff up because you cannot refute the central point.

Here is brightfame52 initial claim in Post 1092

"To say a person is justified before God by their believing, or because of their believing, is a flat out denial that one is justified by Christ"​


Your claim is just you manipulating what has been stated. Again, no surprise because you do the same with Scripture.

And because you finally realize that you've been called out on your manipulation, you now veer off on yet another of your ... what do you call it??? oh yeah, "rabbit trail".

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


Those who state mankind is justified through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are stating exactly what God tells us in His Word.

For you to accuse the believer of "flat out denial that one is Justified by Christ" is nothing but the lie of the devil ... and you should stop your inflammatory accusations.
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Its the Truth, we believe if Christ has died for us and God imputed righteousness to us because of His death. So believers are always those who have Christs righteousness imputed. 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
 
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