Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

Au contraire. I am using Scripture to REFUTE calvinism. That is a very big difference.

So you didn't actually read my whole post, didja? Rom 3:10-12 is a quote from Psa 14:1-3. You need to look up the verse for yourself t5o see what the subject of that passage is about, BEFORE you go shooting off your post about anything.

Paul wasn't speaking about a general seeking or salvation seeking. Just another calvinist talking point.

Actually not. It's about anyone who seeks God and understands that He exists and rewards those who seek Him.

In fact, Cornelius is the perfect example of how Heb 11:6 works. He was unsaved, but understood that God was Creator and he sought Him. And found Him.

Proves that men can and do seek God. Unlike Calvinistic claims that unbelievers cannot seek God. Nonsense.

Actually, all of the above was in my post, but it shows as if coming from awelight.

Okay - now this response is just plain foolishness:

Thank you for your opinion.

I said:
In Heb. 11:6, it is obvious that the persons in view are those that are in the "Faith".

You responded with:
Actually not. It's about anyone who seeks God and understands that He exists and rewards those who seek Him.

You have got to be kidding....

You are so blinded by your calvinist talking points, you just aren't seeing straight.

Not in the Faith. Really!

You just won't admit what the Bible says about those who seek God. They have to believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him. Just as Cornelius did. You can read all about it in Acts 10.

In regards to Cornelius, Scripture says he was a devout man and feared God.

He was also an unsaved man. This is what Peter said Cornelius told him about what the angel said:
Acts 11:14 - He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’

But it's ok if you still want to argue that Cornelius was already saved. Go ahead.

A Roman Centurion, that at some point was Regenerated and Converted.

Just your presumption. You have NO bassis for such a claim.

But where do you find in Scripture anything that would backup your claim here?

In fact, Cornelius is the perfect example of how Heb 11:6 works. He was unsaved, but understood that God was Creator and he sought Him. And found Him.

There is neither evidence for or against any Soteriological Doctrine, considering the Scriptures about Cornelius.

I already told you; in Acts 10 and 11. But you need to read the chapters to see it.

You aren't seeing it because you are blinded by calvinism. You just won't see the truth. Your mind is already made up.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yea, Yea, Yea - same ole drivel.

Thanks for your encouragement!

Again you flee, when the serious questions come out.

Are you ok? I answered all your questions.

You are full of one liners and quips but your understanding of Scripture, is so shallow, you can't handle the tough questions.

Again, thank you for your heartfelt encouragement!

Even in your response above - you learn nothing. [/quote]
I wasn't trying to learn here. I was trying to get YOU to learn something.

[QUOTRE]You are still arguing for the term "Atheist". [/QUOTE]
Boy, do you misunderstand. I was telling you that the fool of Psa 14:1-3 is an atheist. Yet YOU argue against that. Pitiful.

Scripture says that atheism does not exist. Rom.

Scripture doesn't even mention that word, so how can the Bible "say atheist doesn't exist." What is really weird is that you deny that what the fool of Psa 14:1-3 says doesn't qualify as being an atheist.

1:20&21. Atheism is nothing more than a fallen human construct.

No, it's simply how one who says "there is no God" is described. The Bible used the word "fool". And there is no difference, precisely because of Rom 1:19-21. But you just aren't getting it.

It is the product of a foolish and darkened mind.

No, ignoring what God has revealed to man is a foolish and darkened mind.

Those who believe in atheism, believe they have constructed a way to make God disappear.

I don't care what they think. The point is that Paul quoted a passage from Psa 14 that describes atheists. They don't seek God becuase they don't believe there is one. Is that too difficult to comprehend?

But the calvinist uses Rom 3:10-12 as if it applies to everyone. Which is also foolish.

Yet, anyone adhering to this construct, really does not believe in it. Not deep, deep down. The fact that the word exists at all, proves just how foolish mankind became.

I'm not really interested in your philosophy.

Fact: Paul quoted from Psa 14:1-3 which describes an atheist. They do NOT seek God.

So quit applying Rom 3:10-12 as describing all unbelievers.

 

[awelight]

Precious friend, in which case, should we not "follow God's
Recommendation" of 1) "plant" and, then 2) "water" (reasonably
would be IF good questions were still being asked?), and then just
"leave it Up To God To 3) "Give The Increase" (1 Corinthians 3:6)?
+
Romans 16:17? This then, leaves the "Result In God's Hands,"
with Much Less "strife, contention, biting, and devouring," Correct?

An example for this thought:

I believe, on Chat, there is a thread on "the rapture (yes or no?) in
2Thessalonians_2:3" that was Certainly a "dead horse still being
beaten to death" with something like 150,000 postings. Does that
kind of overkill Really "Please God"?

Just wondering...

GRACE And Peace...

I appreciate your attempt to cool things down a bit. Often, perhaps to often, things get heated.

As to your question raised herein - Does that kind of overkill Really "Please God"?

I would like to respond to this - if I may?

If one is just trying to beat the dead horse to death - then I do not think God would be well pleased. However, if one is defending the Truth of God, for the sake of those who maybe following along and still learning, then I would say - Yes.

The Lord has blessed me, with having a hand in helping two new converts (So far), with understanding the Truth. These two converts were following the discussion on Soteriology but were not making many comments. They were using the opportunity to learn rather than talk. When you have been dealing, with the Truth of God's Word, for thirty-five plus years, as I have been blessed to do, then perhaps you are in a position to help but new converts must be careful - It is so easy to be blown from one thing to the next.

There is so much error out there today. Oh, how I wish it were not so.

Perhaps, the saddest thing though, is the fact that the art of conversation is dying or dead. People no longer talk and discuss things, with an eye to learning something new but rather, just defend their position, regardless of how wrong it is.

We have indeed entered this time in our society and I am afraid, in many of the churches.

2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own desires;
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And, you have demonstrated that you are not teachable.

Precious friend, in which case, should we not "follow God's
Recommendation" of 1) "plant" and, then 2) "water" (reasonably
would be IF good questions were still being asked?), and then just
"leave it Up To God To 3) "Give The Increase" (1 Corinthians 3:6)?

The Bible is clear that many do not pay attention to what He teaches. John 6:45. When a person has been given clear and unambiguous verses but ignores them, proves that they are unteachable.

Romans 16:17? This then, leaves the "Result In God's Hands,"
with Much Less "strife, contention, biting, and devouring," Correct?

Of course it is in God's hands. I am just pointing out the obvious.

An example for this thought:

I believe, on Chat, there is a thread on "the rapture (yes or no?) in
2Thessalonians_2:3" that was Certainly a "dead horse still being
beaten to death" with something like 150,000 postings. Does that
kind of overkill Really "Please God"?

I believe in defending the truth.

 

[awelight]

Free Grace 2 - I don't know what you are doing in your posts but I can't even attach to them properly. In post number #3922 - you said:

Are you ok? I answered all your questions

Why do you lie in front of everyone. You have not answered my questions. you have refused to acknowledge them at least three times now. I don't have to prove this - anyone can go back through the posts and see for themselves.

I will post them again. Please follow my questions and respond to each.

Let's begin shall we? Scripture declares the following about Depravity:

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, There is none that is seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:

Therefore, the subject of Depravity is described here, as having 7 effects on all of mankind. They are:
1.) ALL are under sin.
2.) None is Righteous.
3.) None has Understanding about the things of God. Obviously man understands somethings: Sciences, philosophy, medicine...etc.
4.) None is seeking after God.
5.) ALL turned aside from God.
6.) ALL became worthless.
7.) None do acts of Good (From God's perspective), NO NOT ONE.

You said:
Typical error here. Revealed by your statement: "as having 7 effects on all of mankind". iow, you are taking Rom 3:10-18 as what "all of mankind" are guilty of".

NO - I was using only verses 9-12. YES - all mankind is under sin.

- However, are you saying that verses 10-12 do not apply to all of fallen mankind?
- That Scripture does not clearly say what Scripture says?
- Do you not know, that you are now breaking your own rules so often posted by you? You have repeatedly accused "Calvinist" of twisting the clear meaning of words but here on Rom. 3:9-12, you attempt to give them some meaning they don't have. The writer, Paul, was under Divine inspiration.
- Do you think the Holy Spirit erred when He used "all" and "none"?

These verses may have first appeared in the Psalms but that does not mean they cannot be repurposed in the context of Romans 3.

Romans 1:18 through Romans 3:21 are Paul's indictments against mankind. This whole section of Scripture is about mankind's condition and it being the reason for God's Judgements and Wrath.


It is unfortunate, that one who fights so hard for "all" to be all and "world" to mean everyone in Scriptures about Salvation and believing, now attempts to limit "all" and "none".

How do you explain this?


Stop ignoring these questions and give answer.
Please then give answer to the following questions: Reposted -

Several questions then arise from these indictments, as to how mankind can achieve Salvation or believe on Christ or Trust God?

1.) If all are under sin and love sin - Then why would they, of their own accord, desire to pursue righteousness?
2.) If none has understanding, about the things of God - Then how can that person ever come to understand the danger they are in?
3.) If none are seeking after God - Then how does one go from that condition, to a condition that desires and seeks God?
4.) If all have turned aside - Then how do they turnback? Through understanding spiritual things and searching after God. BUT WAIT - There is that little problem of none having understanding and none are seeking.
5.) If all are unprofitable or worthless - Then how does that condition change?
6.) If none is doing GOOD but yet we think we are - How does this message penetrate the depraved mind?

 

[awelight]

Thanks for your encouragement!


Are you ok? I answered all your questions.


Again, thank you for your heartfelt encouragement!

Even in your response above - you learn nothing.

I wasn't trying to learn here. I was trying to get YOU to learn something.

[QUOTRE]You are still arguing for the term "Atheist". [/QUOTE]
Boy, do you misunderstand. I was telling you that the fool of Psa 14:1-3 is an atheist. Yet YOU argue against that. Pitiful.


Scripture doesn't even mention that word, so how can the Bible "say atheist doesn't exist." What is really weird is that you deny that what the fool of Psa 14:1-3 says doesn't qualify as being an atheist.


No, it's simply how one who says "there is no God" is described. The Bible used the word "fool". And there is no difference, precisely because of Rom 1:19-21. But you just aren't getting it.


No, ignoring what God has revealed to man is a foolish and darkened mind.


I don't care what they think. The point is that Paul quoted a passage from Psa 14 that describes atheists. They don't seek God becuase they don't believe there is one. Is that too difficult to comprehend?

But the calvinist uses Rom 3:10-12 as if it applies to everyone. Which is also foolish.


I'm not really interested in your philosophy.

Fact: Paul quoted from Psa 14:1-3 which describes an atheist. They do NOT seek God.

So quit applying Rom 3:10-12 as describing all unbelievers.[/QUOTE]


See post 3925

 

[awelight]

I know this post is not directed at me but I can't stay away.

FreeGrace2 said:
And, you have demonstrated that you are not teachable.

LOL, that is rich coming from you.

The Bible is clear that many do not pay attention to what He teaches. John 6:45. When a person has been given clear and unambiguous verses but ignores them, proves that they are unteachable.

Perhaps you should follow your own advice. Since you distort the true meaning of John 10:3, 4, 11 & 14.

Of course it is in God's hands. I am just pointing out the obvious.

I believe in defending the truth.

How I desire you had the Truth to defend.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Free Grace 2 - I don't know what you are doing in your posts but I can't even attach to them properly.

The problem is not on my side. I don't understand what you mean by "can't even attach to them properly". What are you trying to attach anyway? I never attach to any post. I click the reply button, and the respond to the post. Seems real simple.

In post number #3922 - you said:

Are you ok? I answered all your questions

Why do you lie in front of everyone.

You really need to stop this junk. I HAVE answered your questions.

You have not answered my questions.

Are you awake?

you have refused to acknowledge them at least three times now. I don't have to prove this - anyone can go back through the posts and see for themselves.

Maybe someone else can prove what you haven't.

I will post them again. Please follow my questions and respond to each.

Let's begin shall we?

Is this a question that you demand that I answer?

Scripture declares the following about Depravity:

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, There is none that is seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:

Therefore, the subject of Depravity is described here, as having 7 effects on all of mankind. They are:
1.) ALL are under sin.
2.) None is Righteous.
3.) None has Understanding about the things of God. Obviously man understands somethings: Sciences, philosophy, medicine...etc.
4.) None is seeking after God.
5.) ALL turned aside from God.
6.) ALL became worthless.
7.) None do acts of Good (From God's perspective), NO NOT ONE.

I'm getting real tired of this. I have addressed all this. I pointed out Rom 3:10-12 is a quote from Psa 14:1-3 and does not effect "all of mankind" as you erroneously claim.

You said:
Typical error here. Revealed by your statement: "as having 7 effects on all of mankind". iow, you are taking Rom 3:10-18 as what "all of mankind" are guilty of".

NO - I was using only verses 9-12. YES - all mankind is under sin.

Yes, I agreed to that and cited 39 and 23 to support my belief. Your error is trying to apply 3:9-12 to everyone, but the quoted passage refers only to fools who claim there is no God. That would be an atheist.

- However, are you saying that verses 10-12 do not apply to all of fallen mankind?

Since it is a quote from Psa 14:1-3, NO< it does NOT apply to everyone.

- That Scripture does not clearly say what Scripture says?

No, Scripture does clearly say what it says. Your questions are getting mighty weird.

- Do you not know, that you are now breaking your own rules so often posted by you?

Thank you for your erroneous opinion.

You have repeatedly accused "Calvinist" of twisting the clear meaning of words but here on Rom. 3:9-12, you attempt to give them some meaning they don't have.

This is getting really insane now. Paul was quoting Psa 14:1-3, but apparently you just don't get it. I haven't twisted anything. I pointed out that Paul was quoting Psa 14:1-3 when he wrote 3:10-12. Why can't this simple FACT sink into your head?

The writer, Paul, was under Divine inspiration.
- Do you think the Holy Spirit erred when He used "all" and "none"?[/QUOTE]
I did something apparently you haven't thought of. I went to the verse in the OT that Paul quoted from, so I UNDERSTAND what Paul was doing. And doing with all 6 OT quotes.

These verses may have first appeared in the Psalms but that does not mean they cannot be repurposed in the context of Romans 3.

I wasn't "repurposing" anything. I don't even know what you mean by that. Do you seriously think that Paul wasn't supposed to use the OT to demonstrate or illustrate a point? Well, you'd be wrong.

Romans 1:18 through Romans 3:21 are Paul's indictments against mankind.

OK.

This whole section of Scripture is about mankind's condition and it being the reason for God's Judgements and Wrath.

Rom 3:10-18 are 6 quotes from the OT that show the variety of sins that men commit. Why are you being so stubborn?

It is unfortunate, that one who fights so hard for "all" to be all and "world" to mean everyone in Scriptures about Salvation and believing, now attempts to limit "all" and "none".

Context is king, which you apparently or conveniently don't know.

In the context of Rom 3:10-12 Paul quoted a verse that describes atheists, which the Bible calls fools. That's ONE way men sin.

Then Paul went on with 5 more examples.

Stop ignoring these questions and give answer.

So far, I've responded to EVERY point you've made in this post.

Please then give answer to the following questions: Reposted -

Several questions then arise from these indictments, as to how mankind can achieve Salvation or believe on Christ or Trust God?

1.) If all are under sin and love sin - Then why would they, of their own accord, desire to pursue righteousness?

Because all of mankind was created with a conscience, with which to make their own determinations and choices. When the gospel is presented, a choice is created; to believe it or not.

But Calvinism is hobbled by the false doctrine that man is unable to believe until they are regenerated.

2.) If none has understanding, about the things of God - Then how can that person ever come to understand the danger they are in?

Only atheists (fools) who don't believe in God don't know they are in danger. Looking across all the religions of the world there is a common thread about how to get into heaven. So unbelievers do understand danger. Religion is Satan's deception to keep people away from the truth.

3.) If none are seeking after God - Then how does one go from that condition, to a condition that desires and seeks God?

your bias is still in your way. The "none who seek God" are the fools/atheists who don't believe that God exists.
PS: this is an answer.

4.) If all have turned aside - Then how do they turnback?

2 Cor 3:16 tells us how. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Since this verse refutes Calvinism, I don't expect you to believe the verse, but it is still a fact. The veil mentioned refers to spiritual blindness. Please notice the order; turning to the Lord PRECEDES the veil (blindness) being taken away.

Through understanding spiritual things and searching after God. BUT WAIT - There is that little problem of none having understanding and none are seeking.

I reject your failed understanding. The "none are seeking" comes from Psa 14:1-3 and applies to those who say there is no God.

5.) If all are unprofitable or worthless - Then how does that condition change?

I don't understand your question. Please explain what you mean by unprofitable and worthless and quote the verses where you read them. Then I can respond.

6.) If none is doing GOOD but yet we think we are - How does this message penetrate the depraved mind?

You simply fail to accept that man's conscience is able to make choices. Because of that, there is nothing I say that will make a difference with you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

See post 3925

Why?

 

[FreeGrace2]

How I desire you had the Truth to defend.

Too bad you don't have the truth. You can't even understand how Paul used 6 OT passages to demonstrate the different ways people sin.

So there is no use in further discussion about this. You are not listening. In the back (or front) of your head you are convinced a man must be regenerated before they can believe. And this notion is not taught anywhere in Scripture.

In fact, regeneration and salvation occur together and are preceded by faith. But that is rejected by Calvinists.

So, there we are.

 

[Gideon300]

No James is not wrong. OSASers are.
James "Faith without works is DEAD".

When someone can show me how it is possible to be unborn again, I will accept that OSAS is wrong. When someone can show me how eternal life can die, I will agree with you. You need to know what salvation really means.

 

[awelight]

You simply fail to accept that man's conscience is able to make choices. Because of that, there is nothing I say that will make a difference with you.

I agree with you. This conversation is about at it's end. Sadly, you gave quite a tell about your approach and attitude towards conversations with others in post# 3926. When you stated:

I wasn't trying to learn here. I was trying to get YOU to learn something.

How sad.. how sad indeed. When I enter into any conversation, it is with an eye to the fact, that I MIGHT learn something. I learn even from those whom are in error.

You have attempted to depose the correct view of Romans 3:9-12, because you know, that if you admitted to the correct understanding of these verses, then your idea about mankind and a working conscience and making right decisions - apart from Regeneration - would never hold water. This has lead you to conclude, that 9-12 are about sins that are committed by those who are fools. But in no way, means that the writer is saying, that "all" and "none - means "all" and "none".

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, There is none that is seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:

Verse 9b says: "...that they are all under sin;" - Not that they are all sinners (Which is true), but are all under the "Principle" of sin. In other words, sin is their task master, both Jews and Gentiles. Therefore, within the context, the subject of "sinning" is not the immediate point; rather it is what the "power" and the "enslavement" to sin has brought upon mankind. That is "Judgment" and "Wrath".
This is further bad news for mankind - the bad news that Paul started back in Romans 1:18.

The problem that arises in your interpretation is this:

First - the proper understanding of what is being taught:

v9. All are under sin - except Jesus Christ.
v10. There is none righteous - because of the fall - except those clothed in Christ's Righteousness.
v11. None that has understanding - because of sin - except those who have been given understanding.
v11. None are seeking - because they love sin - except those that have been Regenerated.
v12. All turned aside (from God) - because of their foolish thinking (Rom.1: 18-22) - except those who have been granted Repentance.
v12, Humanity became worthless to God - because of the fall - except those who have been restored.
v12. None are doing what God sees as good - because of unrighteousness - except those that are lead by the Spirit.

Your interpretation, as explained in previous posts, of Rom. 3:9-12 - would give us the following:

As you have stated: Since romans 3:9-12 are possible sins that are committed by some - principally, the fools/atheist of Ps. 14, this is not to be understood as "ALL" without exception. I believe this is a fair assessment of your previous points.

However, to go down this road, would eventually lead to a really dangerous understanding of the message of the Gospel. Why?

If Rom.3:9-12 is not, "all" inclusive, of fallen mankind - then this would lead to a complete destruction of the necessity for a Saviour. After all, if there are some who are righteous, then they need not the Righteousness of Christ. If there are some who have understanding, then they need not the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If there are some who are seeking God, then they are not lost. If there are some that did not turn aside from God, then they need not repent. If there are some doing good, they must have not lived in Sodom and Gomorrah.

For these reasons, your interpretation must be rejected.

But since you came to learn nothing from me - this post is worthless to you and perhaps will benefit others.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You simply fail to accept that man's conscience is able to make choices. Because of that, there is nothing I say that will make a difference with you.

I agree with you. This conversation is about at it's end.

"at it's end"???

Sadly, you gave quite a tell about your approach and attitude towards conversations with others in post# 3926. When you stated:

I wasn't trying to learn here. I was trying to get YOU to learn something.

How sad.. how sad indeed. When I enter into any conversation, it is with an eye to the fact, that I MIGHT learn something. I learn even from those whom are in error.

So you think you may learn from those who are in error?? Really?

You have attempted to depose the correct view of Romans 3:9-12, because you know, that if you admitted to the correct understanding of these verses, then your idea about mankind and a working conscience and making right decisions - apart from Regeneration - would never hold water.

Your opinion couldn't be more wrong. I just gave the facts. I didn't need to "interpret" anything.

Are you going to argue that Paul didn't quote from 6 OT passages in Rom 3:10-18. Well then, go ahead. But my Study Bible cited 6 OT passages all related to those Romans verses. And guess what! All of them were the same as Paul wrote. So argue as much as you want.

What I said is the truth.

This has lead you to conclude, that 9-12 are about sins that are committed by those who are fools.

<sigh> No, v.10-12 refers to the fools who say there is no God. This really isn't that complicated.

And v.10-12 do NOT apply to every human being; just the fools who say there is no God.

But in no way, means that the writer is saying, that "all" and "none - means "all" and "none".

Paul quoted from Psa 14:1-3. Read it for yourself. All you are doing is resisting learning.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, There is none that is seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:

Once again, v.10-12 is a specific reference to the fools who say there is no God.

Verse 9b says: "...that they are all under sin;" - Not that they are all sinners (Which is true), but are all under the "Principle" of sin. In other words, sin is their task master, both Jews and Gentiles.

Of course. But I am just amazed at your seemingly inability to grasp why Paul quoted from 6 OT passages.

QUOTE] Therefore, within the context, the subject of "sinning" is not the immediate point; rather it is what the "power" and the "enslavement" to sin has brought upon mankind. That is "Judgment" and "Wrath".
This is further bad news for mankind - the bad news that Paul started back in Romans 1:18.

The problem that arises in your interpretation is this:

There is no "interpretation" in my posts. What I have done, and over and over, is to point out that Paul quoted from 6 OT passages, and v.10-12 refers specifically to the fools who say there is no God. Because that's what Psa 14:1-3 SAYS.

First - the proper understanding of what is being taught:

v9. All are under sin - except Jesus Christ.
v10. There is none righteous - because of the fall - except those clothed in Christ's Righteousness.
v11. None that has understanding - because of sin - except those who have been given understanding.
v11. None are seeking - because they love sin - except those that have been Regenerated.
v12. All turned aside (from God) - because of their foolish thinking (Rom.1: 18-22) - except those who have been granted Repentance.
v12, Humanity became worthless to God - because of the fall - except those who have been restored.
v12. None are doing what God sees as good - because of unrighteousness - except those that are lead by the Spirit.

Nope. v.10-12 is ONE example of how everyone is under sin. Not everyone says there is no God.

Your interpretation

I wish you were able to learn that I never gave an interpretation. I pointed out where Paul's words came from: the OT.

as explained in previous posts, of Rom. 3:9-12 - would give us the following:

As you have stated: Since romans 3:9-12 are possible sins that are committed by some - principally, the fools/atheist of Ps. 14, this is not to be understood as "ALL" without exception. I believe this is a fair assessment of your previous points.

It's the truth. Paul quoted Psa 14:1-3 and the subject is fools who say there is no God. That is not an "interpretation".

However, to go down this road, would eventually lead to a really dangerous understanding of the message of the Gospel.

Nonsense. It has no effect on understanding the gospel. The fools/atheists of Psa 14 don't care about the gospel. They don't believe that God exists.

Why?

If Rom.3:9-12 is not, "all" inclusive, of fallen mankind - then this would lead to a complete destruction of the necessity for a Saviour.

Boy are you getting off track. There are many more people who DO have at least a concept of God, but haven't sought Him correctly.

You are trying to "interpret" v.10-12 as applying to eveyrone, which would mean that everyone believes that there is no God.

After all, if there are some who are righteous, then they need not the Righteousness of Christ.

Given v.9 we ALREADY KNOW that there is none righteous. But the "none that seek God" DOES refer to the fools.

If there are some who have understanding, then they need not the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If there are some who are seeking God, then they are not lost. If there are some that did not turn aside from God, then they need not repent. If there are some doing good, they must have not lived in Sodom and Gomorrah.

You are just twisting Paul's quotes all out of shape.

For these reasons, your interpretation must be rejected.

Paul quoted Psa 14 and you ridiculously claim that I am interpreting. No, I am pointing out what Paul did. So the subject of v.10-12 is about the fools.

Let me ask you, do you believe that all 6 OT quotes applies to everyone in the human race?

But since you came to learn nothing from me - this post is worthless to you and perhaps will benefit others.

I have asked you questions. Would you be so kind as to at least answer them?

 

[rogerg]

I agree with you. This conversation is about at it's end. Sadly, you gave quite a tell about your approach and attitude towards conversations with others in post# 3926. When you stated:

awelight, unfortunately, you're following Freegrace2 down into a rabbit hole, from which nothing good will result.
I know because I've followed him down into it before multiple times. Best to cut your losses now.

 

[FreeGrace2]

awelight, unfortunately, you're following Freegrace2 down into a rabbit hole, from which nothing good will result.
I know because I've followed him down into it before multiple times. Best to cut your losses now.

And you were unable to quote any verse that says what you claim. tsk tsk tsk.

 

[awelight]

awelight, unfortunately, you're following Freegrace2 down into a rabbit hole, from which nothing good will result.
I know because I've followed him down into it before multiple times. Best to cut your losses now.

I already have but thanks for caring.

As I said at the end of my post #3932, it was for the benefit of those who were following along. After all, FreeGrace 2 made it clear, he was not there to learn anything. This verified what I said before about him - That he thinks himself a teacher and is going around the chat grading his students essays. It is a sad commentary, when one thinks themselves not teachable.

This question, from him, I thought to be quite revealing:

Let me ask you, do you believe that all 6 OT quotes applies to everyone in the human race?

He asks the question because he does not believe, that these passages pertain to all of fallen humanity; nor the ones in Rom. 3:9-18. Sadly, this proves an incorrect knowledge of what sin is. All true believers, by God's Grace, understands that we are all guilty of these sins because we are all capable of these sins. If you will allow me, I want to explore this thought a bit more and I am going to make it personal. This was me before I was Regenerated and Converted:

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin; (Didn't know that).
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; (Didn't know that).
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, (And didn't care too) There is none that is seeking after God; (Was not and didn't care about Him).
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, (I was never on His side) they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one: (Would not have agreed with that statement).
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulcher; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips: (Guilty)
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (Like a sailor).
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood; (Never did it but thought about it).
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; (Yep, wrecked a few relationships. It was my way or the highway).
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known: (Peace! I was hawk).
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. (You can't fear what you don't care about).

This is the sad state of fallen mankind. Everyone who understands sin, in this way, say Amen.

Take care my friend and may God bless you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I already have but thanks for caring.

As I said at the end of my post #3932, it was for the benefit of those who were following along. After all, FreeGrace 2 made it clear, he was not there to learn anything.

More evidence of rather poor reading skills. I told awelight that I wasn't trying to learn anything from him, but rather, trying to teach him. But he showed that he wasn't interested in being taught.

This verified what I said before about him - That he thinks himself a teacher and is going around the chat grading his students essays. It is a sad commentary

The real sad commentary is his commentary.

He said:
This question, from him, I thought to be quite revealing:
Let me ask you, do you believe that all 6 OT quotes applies to everyone in the human race?

He asks the question because he does not believe, that these passages pertain to all of fallen humanity; nor the ones in Rom. 3:9-18.

This clearly demonstrates his own problem in grasping Scripture. He claims ALL 6 OT quotes by Paul refers to every person in humanity, meaning every person is guilty of ALL 6 OT quotes. Which is obviously absurd.

It is clear to clear minded thinkers that Paul was backing up his claim in v.9 that "all are under sin" by providing 6 examples from the OT.

Or maybe, just maybe, awelight has been guilty of this quote:

15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;

Maybe he tends towards violence, and assumed that everyone is violent.

Well, if that is what is going on, he is just very naive about things.

But at least, he has given this thread a rather clear look into his own history, since he claims that ALL of the 6 OT quotes applies to everyone. So that would include himself. At least we now know how he has acted in the past.

To be clear, this is what he has been guilty of:
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.”“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Wow.

 

[awelight]

More evidence of rather poor reading skills. I told awelight that I wasn't trying to learn anything from him, but rather, trying to teach him. But he showed that he wasn't interested in being taught.


The real sad commentary is his commentary.

He said:
This question, from him, I thought to be quite revealing:
Let me ask you, do you believe that all 6 OT quotes applies to everyone in the human race?

He asks the question because he does not believe, that these passages pertain to all of fallen humanity; nor the ones in Rom. 3:9-18.

This clearly demonstrates his own problem in grasping Scripture. He claims ALL 6 OT quotes by Paul refers to every person in humanity, meaning every person is guilty of ALL 6 OT quotes. Which is obviously absurd.

It is clear to clear minded thinkers that Paul was backing up his claim in v.9 that "all are under sin" by providing 6 examples from the OT.

Or maybe, just maybe, awelight has been guilty of this quote:

15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;

Maybe he tends towards violence, and assumed that everyone is violent.

Well, if that is what is going on, he is just very naive about things.

But at least, he has given this thread a rather clear look into his own history, since he claims that ALL of the 6 OT quotes applies to everyone. So that would include himself. At least we now know how he has acted in the past.

To be clear, this is what he has been guilty of:
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.”“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Wow.

Since they obviously don't apply to you - YOU are still in your sins. For if one does not clearly understand the sin nature and it's power - then you cannot understand your sins and if you cannot understand your sins - you can't truly Repent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since they obviously don't apply to you

It is just so sad how little you understand the passage. NOT every one of the passages apply to me. For example, I NEVER claimed that there is no God. I was never an atheist. I was NEVER "swift to shed blood". I'm not the violent type, as you may be. Etc, etc, etc.

- YOU are still in your sins.

This is just a very reckless statement. You are judging me without any knowledge of me. Or you are just totally ignorant of John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Well, I DO believe that He is the Messiah.

For if one does not clearly understand the sin nature and it's power - then you cannot understand your sins and if you cannot understand your sins - you can't truly Repent.

Just like a Calvinist; trying and trying to make everything too complicated to understand. I guess that is why you guys cling to your erroneous view of "election" so much.

Nonsense. I understand sin clearly. Sin means literally to "miss the mark". The "mark" would be God's standard of perfection, which NO human being is able to achieve.

That is the precise reason Jesus came to earth and bore the sins of mankind on the cross. He paid the sin debt that everyone owes.

So don't give me your lousy and flawed evaluation of me.

Here are some truths you need to chew on.

There are NO verses that teach that man is unable to believe the gospel. Rather, Scripture is filled with commands TO believe the gospel.

There are NO verses that teach that God unconditionally chooses who will be saved. Rather, Scripture is filled with verses that say plainly that salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ.

There are NO verses that teach that Christ died ONLY for a subgroup of the human race. Rather, Scripture is filled with verses that plainly state that He died for all. And there is nothing in any of the contexts that puts limits on the word "all". Calvinists do that on their own.

There are NO verses that teach that God's grace is irresistible. Acts 7:51 says that men resist the Holy Spirit. And what's the difference?

There are NO verses that teach that ALL believers will persevere in the faith. Rather, Scripture teaches very clearly that ALL believers shall never perish.

Now, if you can refute any of these, please proceed. With clear and plain verses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So sad about awelight.

I posted:
Here are some truths you need to chew on.

There are NO verses that teach that man is unable to believe the gospel. Rather, Scripture is filled with commands TO believe the gospel.

There are NO verses that teach that God unconditionally chooses who will be saved. Rather, Scripture is filled with verses that say plainly that salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ.

There are NO verses that teach that Christ died ONLY for a subgroup of the human race. Rather, Scripture is filled with verses that plainly state that He died for all. And there is nothing in any of the contexts that puts limits on the word "all". Calvinists do that on their own.

There are NO verses that teach that God's grace is irresistible. Acts 7:51 says that men resist the Holy Spirit. And what's the difference?

There are NO verses that teach that ALL believers will persevere in the faith. Rather, Scripture teaches very clearly that ALL believers shall never perish.

Now, if you can refute any of these, please proceed. With clear and plain verses.

So, instead of showing me any errors in what I posted, he simply shows that he is BORED.

He can't refute any of my statements, so he hides it with a silly emoji.