Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Or, are you so confused, deceived, etc that you don't consider either John 5:24 or John 10:28 as Scripture?

Why don't you quote those? It's because you know they don't say we can't forsake God!

I never said they did. I did explain they prove that salvation cannot be lost. Once a person receives the gift of eternal life, they SHALL NEVER PERISH. Jesus' own words, which you keep rejecting.

Isn't rejecting clear Scripture tantamount to forsaking God? Why don't you look into a mirror?

I've already said any believer can forsake God. Why don't you read posts before embarrassing yourself by your ridiculous replies.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The OSAS Twist!

OSAS says I can NEVER be unsaved. Isn't that wonderful!

I don't believe anyone has said that. What was said is that anyone who has received the gift of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Those are Jesus' words, which prove that salvation cannot be lost.

No one knows on this thread whether you ever received eternal life or not.

But according to your own theology, since you have directly rejected the words of Jesus, which is tantamount to forsaking God and His Word, you need to worry about that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Just to be real clear, duck, Jesus said it in very plain words, which you have chosen to reject.

Another OSAS LIE!

You are the liar. You reject eternal security but you claim you believe John 10:28.

That would mean you believe two diametrically opposed claims. Which is nuts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have insulted me . One liners destroy threads . maybe that is the plan

That poster may very well be a troll. Sure acting like one.

 

[awelight]

Fire away. I've never avoided answering any question.

You said:
Typical error here. Revealed by your statement: "as having 7 effects on all of mankind". iow, you are taking Rom 3:10-18 as what "all of mankind" are guilty of".

Not so. Paul makes the statement in v.9 that "everyone is under sin". Then he follows that with 6 OT quotes that show the VARIOUS WAYS human beings sin. He WASN'T indicting all of mankind from all the 6 verses. He was showing the variety of ways men sin.


NO. The indictment came in v.9. And repeated in v.23. Again, v.10-18 are EXAMPLES of how mankind sins.

It is obvious, you don't like what Romans 3:9-18 have to say about mankind. So like all who cherry pick their Scriptures, you try very hard to explain them away. My post on "Depravity" is concentrating on the points made in 9-12. You tried, in some strange way, to explain these away by saying the following:

OK, let's examine the first quote Paul took from the OT; Psa 14:1-3
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

So, what is the subject in this passage? The FOOL who says "there is no God". iow, the atheists. Do any of the atheists seek God? No. Did you notice the similarity between Psa 14:1-3 and Paul's first OT quote? That's where it came from.

So when Paul wrote "none who seek God", he was referring to the fool atheist. Not EVERYONE in humanity.

You seem not to realize, that the Scriptures have claimed the fallen world, as "all" being fools, apart from God's Grace. Staying within the Apostle Paul's argument, Paul said this is why "wrath" is happening and coming.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

You also brought in the subject of "Atheism" as away to explain what Ps. 14 was discussing. The problem here is that there are no verses that ever use the term "atheist or atheism". Therefore, you have no authority for your claim. If you had studied properly, you would know, that the Scriptures shoot down any concept of "Atheism". In verses 20&21 above, Paul says that everyone is without excuse because God is clearly revealed in Creation. Therefore, atheism is a purely human concept. Now that this aspect of your defense is destroyed, by Scripture -

I repeat:

Let's begin shall we? Scripture declares the following about Depravity:

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, There is none that is seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:

Therefore, the subject of Depravity is described here, as having 7 effects on all of mankind. They are:
1.) ALL are under sin.
2.) None is Righteous.
3.) None has Understanding about the things of God. Obviously man understands somethings: Sciences, philosophy, medicine...etc.
4.) None is seeking after God.
5.) ALL turned aside from God.
6.) ALL became worthless.
7.) None do acts of Good (From God's perspective), NO NOT ONE.

You said:
Typical error here. Revealed by your statement: "as having 7 effects on all of mankind". iow, you are taking Rom 3:10-18 as what "all of mankind" are guilty of".

NO - I was using only verses 9-12. YES - all mankind is under sin. However, are you saying that verses 10-12 do not apply to all of fallen mankind? That Scripture does not clearly say what Scripture says? Do you not know, that you are now breaking your own rules so often posted by you? You have repeatedly accused "Calvinist" of twisting the clear meaning of words but here on Rom. 3:9-12, you attempt to give them some meaning they don't have. Applying them to some foolish notion of atheism. The writer, Paul, was under Divine inspiration. Do you think the Holy Spirit erred when He used "all" and "none"?

These verses may have first appeared in the Psalms but that does not mean they cannot be repurposed in the context of Romans 3.

Romans 1:18 through Romans 3:21 are Paul's indictments against mankind. This whole section of Scripture is about mankind's condition and it being the reason for God's Judgements and Wrath.

It is unfortunate, that one who fights so hard for "all" to be all and "world" to mean everyone in Scriptures about Salvation and believing, now attempts to limit "all" and "none".

Stop ignoring these questions and give answer.
Please then give answer to the following questions: Reposted -

Several questions then arise from these indictments, as to how mankind can achieve Salvation or believe on Christ or Trust God?

1.) If all are under sin and love sin - Then why would they, of their own accord, desire to pursue righteousness?
2.) If none has understanding, about the things of God - Then how can that person ever come to understand the danger they are in?
3.) If none are seeking after God - Then how does one go from that condition, to a condition that desires and seeks God?
4.) If all have turned aside - Then how do they turnback? Through understanding spiritual things and searching after God. BUT WAIT - There is that little problem of none having understanding and none are seeking.
5.) If all are unprofitable or worthless - Then how does that condition change?
6.) If none is doing GOOD but yet we think we are - How does this message penetrate the depraved mind?

 

[awelight]

FreeGrace2 said:
As you know, the proof that election is to salvation is a verse that plainly says so. So all your questions don't help the discussion. What you need are verses that SAY that salvation is to election.

No problem. The point was that Jesus did elect/choose Judas as the betrayer. That is election to service.


Yes! That's my point about Eph 1:4. God has chosen "us in Him". That IS believers. In fact, v.19 defines "us" as "us who BELIEVE".

However, as John 6:70 plainly shows, Judas, an unbeliever, was chosen to be the betrayer. So God chooses both believers and unbelievers for His own purposes.

What about the people (nation) of Israel? Were all of them in the OT saved? Of course not. Yet, the whole group was an elect group.



Nope. Then Judas was saved. That is pure nonsense. And that would mean EVERY JEW in the OT was saved.


Ask Judas. Ask every Jew from the OT. You have to understand that God's plan calls for His will to be done. And He chooses/elects who He determines who will advance His plan.

Was Christ's crucifixion part of God's plan? Of course it was. In fact, it was prophesied in the OT, from Genesis 3 forward. God from His omniscience knew that Judas would definitely betray the Savior if given the opportunity, for he was the ultimate opportunist, so God placed him WHEN and WHERE He did in history to accomplish His plan. Acts 17:26 - 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.


What does that even mean? John 6:70 is clear enough. So is the chosen nation of Israel.


You've just got to be kidding!!! Seriously???


This isn't about how the "chosen ones" think about it, or their desire. It's about God's plan, plain and simple.

It seems you are rather naive about all this.

But the real issue is that you know you don't have any verse that actually says that election is to salvation, or any verse that shows that God elects to salvation.

And the glaring example of Judas and the entire nation of Israel refute your attempt to link election to service to election to salvation.

You completely missed the meaning of the way I was defining "service". I define "service", in the Bible", as a willing act of the heart. The Saints become "servants" of Christ or better yet, "slaves" of Christ.

When God uses one like Pharaoh to demonstrate His Power or Judas to fulfill the prophecies of betrayal or the Philistines to punish Israel, these are not acts of "service". Pharaoh, Judas and the Philistine king, were serving their own heart's desires. God used their corrupt desires for his own purposes.

Therefore, I was defining "service" as something for God and the cause of Christ, out of a willing heart. To have a willing heart, one must have experienced the gift of Grace.

 

[awelight]

FreeGrace2 said:
Wanna bet? I have challenged her, and now YOU to provide verses that plainly state each point. That means 1 verse per point, not 1 verse that states all 5 points.

Once each of you shows that you can't do that, I will provide verses that plainly refute each of the 5 points. That is, if you claim the 5th point is about perseverance. If you think it is preservation (eternal security), then I'm fully on board with that.

OK, so you believe that it is a waste of time to prove your view is biblical. That is weird indeed.

Rather, this kind of loose talk is from those who know they can't defend their points or views. So they don't.

Nice cheap shot.

So, you've already checked out on trying to prove the 5 points of calvinism are biblical.

Now, once Beckie checks out without any verses, I will provide clear verses that refute each point.

You are in no position to judge my heart. The Lord alone does that. Your judging is anti-biblical.


Well, I'm glad you decided to take my challenge. Thank you for that. However, I've never "tried to use God's Word against itself". That is a bogus charge.

I DO use God's Word against the claims of those who misuse God's Word.


Ok, let's stop here. Rom 3:10-18 is a series of 6 OT quotes. Paul sets the fact in v.9: all are under sin. Then, he begins to quote 6 different OT passages/verses to demonstrate the various ways all people sin.

Do you seriously think that every human being is guilty of EVERY verse from 10-18??

v.10-11 quotes Psa 14:1-3 directly. The subject of that passage? Atheists. Of course they "don't seek God". But there are verses that acknowledge that people DO seek God.

Acts 17:27 - God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Doesn't sound very calvinistic, does it.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Still doesn't sound very calvinistic, does it.

So, I have used God's Word to REFUTE the calvinist claim that no one seeks God. Atheists don't.


None of these potentials prove the calvinist claim about total depravity.

The biblical view of total depravity is simply that man is unable to save himself. Period. That's it.

But calvinism goes too far and claim that man is unable to believe on his own. But calvinism has no verses that say what they claim.

I have not used God's Word against God's Word. I have used God's Word to reveal that calvin's claim about total depravity isn't found in the Bible.

OK, on to the next point: unconditional election to salvation.

In this post, you attempt to refute Calvinistic teaching of Rom. 3_9-12 by giving the following response:

Acts 17:27 - God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Doesn't sound very calvinistic, does it.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Still doesn't sound very calvinistic, does it.

So, I have used God's Word to REFUTE the calvinist claim that no one seeks God. Atheists don't.

Whether you realize it are not, you are trying to use Scripture to refute Scripture. Using Acts 17:27 and Heb. 11:6, to try to show in someway, that "all" is not all and "none" is not none, therefore, Calvinist are wrong in claiming "all" and "none".

However, it is obvious that Acts 17:27, is talking about Seeking God in General revelation. Not Salvation. This goes back to the points made in Romans 1. The text also indicates, that as created beings, we "should" seek after, not that we "would".

In Heb. 11:6, it is obvious that the persons in view are those that are in the "Faith". Certainly, they knock, ask and seek. But what does this have to do with Calvinism or Rom. 3:9-12?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Please reformat your post 3905. You didn't do it right. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You completely missed the meaning of the way I was defining "service". I define "service", in the Bible", as a willing act of the heart. The Saints become "servants" of Christ or better yet, "slaves" of Christ.

I saw that. Why do you think I didn't. Are you some kind of mind reader? lol

The point is that ALL believers are in service to God. But how many think they are just pew warmers? That's the point.

And another point is that there are NO verses that tell us that election is to salvation.

 

[awelight]

Sorry about post 3905 - my post - posted within your post. FreeGrace 2 - please expand this post to see my response. My response is in black and your comments are in blue.

 

[awelight]

Please reformat your post 3905. You didn't do it right. Thanks.

You said:
Typical error here. Revealed by your statement: "as having 7 effects on all of mankind". iow, you are taking Rom 3:10-18 as what "all of mankind" are guilty of".

Not so. Paul makes the statement in v.9 that "everyone is under sin". Then he follows that with 6 OT quotes that show the VARIOUS WAYS human beings sin. He WASN'T indicting all of mankind from all the 6 verses. He was showing the variety of ways men sin.

NO. The indictment came in v.9. And repeated in v.23. Again, v.10-18 are EXAMPLES of how mankind sins.

It is obvious, you don't like what Romans 3:9-18 have to say about mankind. So like all who cherry pick their Scriptures, you try very hard to explain them away. My post on "Depravity" is concentrating on the points made in 9-12. You tried, in some strange way, to explain these away by saying the following:

OK, let's examine the first quote Paul took from the OT; Psa 14:1-3
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

So, what is the subject in this passage? The FOOL who says "there is no God". iow, the atheists. Do any of the atheists seek God? No. Did you notice the similarity between Psa 14:1-3 and Paul's first OT quote? That's where it came from.
So when Paul wrote "none who seek God", he was referring to the fool atheist. Not EVERYONE in humanity.

You seem not to realize, that the Scriptures have claimed the fallen world, as "all" being fools, apart from God's Grace. Staying within the Apostle Paul's argument, Paul said this is why "wrath" is happening and coming.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

You also brought in the subject of "Atheism" as away to explain what Ps. 14 was discussing. The problem here is that there are no verses that ever use the term "atheist or atheism". Therefore, you have no authority for your claim. If you had studied properly, you would know, that the Scriptures shoot down any concept of "Atheism". In verses 20&21 above, Paul says that everyone is without excuse because God is clearly revealed in Creation. Therefore, atheism is a purely human concept. Now that this aspect of your defense is destroyed, by Scripture -

I repeat:

Let's begin shall we? Scripture declares the following about Depravity:

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, There is none that is seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:

Therefore, the subject of Depravity is described here, as having 7 effects on all of mankind. They are:
1.) ALL are under sin.
2.) None is Righteous.
3.) None has Understanding about the things of God. Obviously man understands somethings: Sciences, philosophy, medicine...etc.
4.) None is seeking after God.
5.) ALL turned aside from God.
6.) ALL became worthless.
7.) None do acts of Good (From God's perspective), NO NOT ONE.

You said:
Typical error here. Revealed by your statement: "as having 7 effects on all of mankind". iow, you are taking Rom 3:10-18 as what "all of mankind" are guilty of".

NO - I was using only verses 9-12. YES - all mankind is under sin. However, are you saying that verses 10-12 do not apply to all of fallen mankind? That Scripture does not clearly say what Scripture says? Do you not know, that you are now breaking your own rules so often posted by you? You have repeatedly accused "Calvinist" of twisting the clear meaning of words but here on Rom. 3:9-12, you attempt to give them some meaning they don't have. Applying them to some foolish notion of atheism. The writer, Paul, was under Divine inspiration. Do you think the Holy Spirit erred when He used "all" and "none"?

These verses may have first appeared in the Psalms but that does not mean they cannot be repurposed in the context of Romans 3.

Romans 1:18 through Romans 3:21 are Paul's indictments against mankind. This whole section of Scripture is about mankind's condition and it being the reason for God's Judgements and Wrath.

It is unfortunate, that one who fights so hard for "all" to be all and "world" to mean everyone in Scriptures about Salvation and believing, now attempts to limit "all" and "none".

Stop ignoring these questions and give answer.
Please then give answer to the following questions: Reposted -

Several questions then arise from these indictments, as to how mankind can achieve Salvation or believe on Christ or Trust God?

1.) If all are under sin and love sin - Then why would they, of their own accord, desire to pursue righteousness?
2.) If none has understanding, about the things of God - Then how can that person ever come to understand the danger they are in?
3.) If none are seeking after God - Then how does one go from that condition, to a condition that desires and seeks God?
4.) If all have turned aside - Then how do they turnback? Through understanding spiritual things and searching after God. BUT WAIT - There is that little problem of none having understanding and none are seeking.
5.) If all are unprofitable or worthless - Then how does that condition change?
6.) If none is doing GOOD but yet we think we are - How does this message penetrate the depraved mind?

 

[FreeGrace2]

In this post, you attempt to refute Calvinistic teaching of Rom. 3_9-12 by giving the following response:

Before we get to that, I didn't "attempt" anything. I actually PROVED that Rom 3:10-12 is a quote from Psa 14:1-3, which was about the fool atheist who said in his heart, "there is no God". So obviously atheists don't seek God.

However, the Bible absolutely acknowledges that people DO seek God. See below.

Acts 17:27 - God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Doesn't sound very calvinistic, does it.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Still doesn't sound very calvinistic, does it.

So, I have used God's Word to REFUTE the calvinist claim that no one seeks God. Atheists don't.

Whether you realize it are not, you are trying to use Scripture to refute Scripture.[/QUOTE]
Au contraire. I am using Scripture to REFUTE calvinism. That is a very big difference.

Using Acts 17:27 and Heb. 11:6, to try to show in someway, that "all" is not all and "none" is not none, therefore, Calvinist are wrong in claiming "all" and "none".

So you didn't actually read my whole post, didja? Rom 3:10-12 is a quote from Psa 14:1-3. You need to look up the verse for yourself t5o see what the subject of that passage is about, BEFORE you go shooting off your post about anything.

However, it is obvious that Acts 17:27, is talking about Seeking God in General revelation. Not Salvation.

Paul wasn't speaking about a general seeking or salvation seeking. Just another calvinist talking point.

In Heb. 11:6, it is obvious that the persons in view are those that are in the "Faith".

Actually not. It's about anyone who seeks God and understands that He exists and rewards those who seek Him.

In fact, Cornelius is the perfect example of how Heb 11:6 works. He was unsaved, but understood that God was Creator and he sought Him. And found Him.

Certainly, they knock, ask and seek. But what does this have to do with Calvinism or Rom. 3:9-12?

Proves that men can and do seek God. Unlike Calvinistic claims that unbelievers cannot seek God. Nonsense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry about post 3905 - my post - posted within your post. FreeGrace 2 - please expand this post to see my response. My response is in black and your comments are in blue.

I tried to respond to someone's post that had the same formatting issue and it was impossible to do it correctly.

 

[awelight]

I saw that. Why do you think I didn't. Are you some kind of mind reader? lol

The point is that ALL believers are in service to God. But how many think they are just pew warmers? That's the point.

And another point is that there are NO verses that tell us that election is to salvation.

I think you need to go back and read your original response to my post. What you are saying now - would be a complete reversal from your previous one.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said:
Typical error here. Revealed by your statement: "as having 7 effects on all of mankind". iow, you are taking Rom 3:10-18 as what "all of mankind" are guilty of".

No I did NOT say anything about "what all of mankind are guilty of". Obviously you don't read whole posts. I said that Rom 3:10-18 were 6 OT quotes that Paul quoted to show the variety of ways people sin. I NEVER said all of humanity is guilty of all of the quotes.

I said:
Not so. Paul makes the statement in v.9 that "everyone is under sin". Then he follows that with 6 OT quotes that show the VARIOUS WAYS human beings sin. He WASN'T indicting all of mankind from all the 6 verses. He was showing the variety of ways men sin.

NO. The indictment came in v.9. And repeated in v.23. Again, v.10-18 are EXAMPLES of how mankind sins.

It is obvious, you don't like what Romans 3:9-18 have to say about mankind.

I suppose YOU like the various ways men sin, huh? What a ridiculous comment. Do you agree or disagree that the 6 OT quotes were to show the various ways men sin?

So like all who cherry pick their Scriptures, you try very hard to explain them away.

I don't know what you are talking about. I addressed the verses that Paul quoted from the OT. Or maybe you were ignorant of the fact that Rom 10-18 were a series of OT quotes.

My post on "Depravity" is concentrating on the points made in 9-12. You tried, in some strange way, to explain these away by saying the following:

OK, let's examine the first quote Paul took from the OT; Psa 14:1-3
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

So, what is the subject in this passage? The FOOL who says "there is no God". iow, the atheists. Do any of the atheists seek God? No. Did you notice the similarity between Psa 14:1-3 and Paul's first OT quote? That's where it came from.
So when Paul wrote "none who seek God", he was referring to the fool atheist. Not EVERYONE in humanity.

You seem not to realize, that the Scriptures have claimed the fallen world, as "all" being fools, apart from God's Grace.

You are just FULL of presumption here. There is nothing to support your claim that Isa 14:1-3 refers to everyone as being a fool. Sheesh.

But you are certainly a typical Calvinist. You guys and gals want to apply ALL of the quoted verses as something everyone is guilty of, just as you are trying to do here.

I reject your attempts. Again, Paul quoted from 6 OT verses to demonstrate the various ways people sin. Not that everyone are guilty of all 6 quotes. Paul was supporting his claim in v.9 about everyone being under sin. He wasn't saying, as calvinists do, that everyone is guilty of all the 6 OT quotes.

You also brought in the subject of "Atheism" as away to explain what Ps. 14 was discussing.

Wow. The people who say in their heart, "there is no God" ARE atheists. Are you actually not aware of that?

I wasn't explaining "away" as you falsely charge, I was explaining what Paul had quoted.

The problem here is that there are no verses that ever use the term "atheist or atheism".

This is ridiculousness to the extreme. Paul DESCRIBED what atheists claim; "there is no God". And you don't see that???

Therefore, you have no authority for your claim.

lol. You seem to have problems far more than just misunderstanding Scripture. Paul quoted a verse about fools who say "there is no God", exactly what atheists claim. And you see no connection???

If you had studied properly, you would know, that the Scriptures shoot down any concept of "Atheism".

This is just getting nutty. So tell me what you call someone who claims "there is no God", if not an atheist.

Maybe you are really ignorant of what "atheist" means.

In verses 20&21 above, Paul says that everyone is without excuse because God is clearly revealed in Creation. Therefore, atheism is a purely human concept. Now that this aspect of your defense is destroyed, by Scripture

Your logic is quite fuzzy. But please, tell me what you would call someone who claims "there is no God"? Yes, the Bible calls such a person a fool, for the EXACT REASON you pointed out, in Rom 1:19-21.

But the point is atheists claim the EXACT SAME THING as the fool of Psa 14:1-3. You are really pulling on straws.

I'm done with this post. Since you've shown such a lack of common sense, I see no reason to continue trying to communicate with you.

You seem unable to understand that a person who says "there is no God" is the ACTUAL definition of an atheist, there seems to be no way to reason with you.

I don't try to reason with unreasonable people. You have shown your hand.

I have shown you facts, and you claim I'm just "explaining away" Scripture. Pitiful. Really pitiful.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think you need to go back and read your original response to my post. What you are saying now - would be a complete reversal from your previous one.

Then prove it by quoting what you think reveal a complete reversal.

I suspect that you have a comprehension problem. Let's see if you can show what you have claimed.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

The OSASers here hurl personal insults at and judge nonOSASers as unsaved....Why do OSASers avoid Scripture like PLAGUE?...Why don't you quote the Scriptures. It's not that difficult.

Precious friend, this sounds discouraging, but I noticed the following:

Duckybill's
Reactions given received
. . "likes" . . 89 . . . 218 ? Precious friend, did you give/receive these
for posts that were Christ-like, kind, loving, charitable, and respectful?

If so, then just because God's Sound Doctrine Of HIS ETERNAL
Salvation is being discussed, is no reason to change our ways, is it?

I will pray for you, and since I am not God, I must not judge you
as saved or unsaved - that is between you and God, Correct?

I hope you take some prayerful and Careful study time for the
following 12-Dozen Scriptures about God's ETERNAL Salvation:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In Christ!
+
God's FREE Gift of ETERNAL Life!

If, for some reason you wish to delay that, and need Scriptures for
any troubling infirmities you may be struggling with, please see:

GRACE Word For our infirmities!

Precious friend, please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, and In HIS Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

GRACE And Peace...

 

[awelight]

Before we get to that, I didn't "attempt" anything. I actually PROVED that Rom 3:10-12 is a quote from Psa 14:1-3, which was about the fool atheist who said in his heart, "there is no God". So obviously atheists don't seek God.

However, the Bible absolutely acknowledges that people DO seek God. See below.

Acts 17:27 - God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Doesn't sound very calvinistic, does it.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Still doesn't sound very calvinistic, does it.

So, I have used God's Word to REFUTE the calvinist claim that no one seeks God. Atheists don't.

Whether you realize it are not, you are trying to use Scripture to refute Scripture.

Au contraire. I am using Scripture to REFUTE calvinism. That is a very big difference.


So you didn't actually read my whole post, didja? Rom 3:10-12 is a quote from Psa 14:1-3. You need to look up the verse for yourself t5o see what the subject of that passage is about, BEFORE you go shooting off your post about anything.


Paul wasn't speaking about a general seeking or salvation seeking. Just another calvinist talking point.


Actually not. It's about anyone who seeks God and understands that He exists and rewards those who seek Him.

In fact, Cornelius is the perfect example of how Heb 11:6 works. He was unsaved, but understood that God was Creator and he sought Him. And found Him.


Proves that men can and do seek God. Unlike Calvinistic claims that unbelievers cannot seek God. Nonsense.[/QUOTE]

Okay - now this response is just plain foolishness:

I said:
In Heb. 11:6, it is obvious that the persons in view are those that are in the "Faith".

You responded with:
Actually not. It's about anyone who seeks God and understands that He exists and rewards those who seek Him.

You have got to be kidding.... Not in the Faith. Really! This whole chapter is about what is accomplished in the Faith. Repeated again and again. "By faith" we understand - "By faith" Abel- "By faith" Enoch.

Then in verse 6 - "without faith it is impossible to please God.". The whole context is about those who demonstrated faith because they were in the Faith.

In regards to Cornelius, Scripture says he was a devout man and feared God. A Roman Centurion, that at some point was Regenerated and Converted. But where do you find in Scripture anything that would backup your claim here?

In fact, Cornelius is the perfect example of how Heb 11:6 works. He was unsaved, but understood that God was Creator and he sought Him. And found Him.

There is neither evidence for or against any Soteriological Doctrine, considering the Scriptures about Cornelius.

 

[awelight]

No I did NOT say anything about "what all of mankind are guilty of". Obviously you don't read whole posts. I said that Rom 3:10-18 were 6 OT quotes that Paul quoted to show the variety of ways people sin. I NEVER said all of humanity is guilty of all of the quotes.

I said:
Not so. Paul makes the statement in v.9 that "everyone is under sin". Then he follows that with 6 OT quotes that show the VARIOUS WAYS human beings sin. He WASN'T indicting all of mankind from all the 6 verses. He was showing the variety of ways men sin.

NO. The indictment came in v.9. And repeated in v.23. Again, v.10-18 are EXAMPLES of how mankind sins.


I suppose YOU like the various ways men sin, huh? What a ridiculous comment. Do you agree or disagree that the 6 OT quotes were to show the various ways men sin?


I don't know what you are talking about. I addressed the verses that Paul quoted from the OT. Or maybe you were ignorant of the fact that Rom 10-18 were a series of OT quotes.


You are just FULL of presumption here. There is nothing to support your claim that Isa 14:1-3 refers to everyone as being a fool. Sheesh.

But you are certainly a typical Calvinist. You guys and gals want to apply ALL of the quoted verses as something everyone is guilty of, just as you are trying to do here.

I reject your attempts. Again, Paul quoted from 6 OT verses to demonstrate the various ways people sin. Not that everyone are guilty of all 6 quotes. Paul was supporting his claim in v.9 about everyone being under sin. He wasn't saying, as calvinists do, that everyone is guilty of all the 6 OT quotes.


Wow. The people who say in their heart, "there is no God" ARE atheists. Are you actually not aware of that?

I wasn't explaining "away" as you falsely charge, I was explaining what Paul had quoted.


This is ridiculousness to the extreme. Paul DESCRIBED what atheists claim; "there is no God". And you don't see that???


lol. You seem to have problems far more than just misunderstanding Scripture. Paul quoted a verse about fools who say "there is no God", exactly what atheists claim. And you see no connection???


This is just getting nutty. So tell me what you call someone who claims "there is no God", if not an atheist.

Maybe you are really ignorant of what "atheist" means.


Your logic is quite fuzzy. But please, tell me what you would call someone who claims "there is no God"? Yes, the Bible calls such a person a fool, for the EXACT REASON you pointed out, in Rom 1:19-21.

But the point is atheists claim the EXACT SAME THING as the fool of Psa 14:1-3. You are really pulling on straws.

I'm done with this post. Since you've shown such a lack of common sense, I see no reason to continue trying to communicate with you.

You seem unable to understand that a person who says "there is no God" is the ACTUAL definition of an atheist, there seems to be no way to reason with you.

I don't try to reason with unreasonable people. You have shown your hand.

I have shown you facts, and you claim I'm just "explaining away" Scripture. Pitiful. Really pitiful.

Yea, Yea, Yea - same ole drivel.

Again you flee, when the serious questions come out. You are full of one liners and quips but your understanding of Scripture, is so shallow, you can't handle the tough questions.

Even in your response above - you learn nothing. You are still arguing for the term "Atheist". Scripture says that atheism does not exist. Rom. 1:20&21. Atheism is nothing more than a fallen human construct. It is the product of a foolish and darkened mind. Those who believe in atheism, believe they have constructed a way to make God disappear. Yet, anyone adhering to this construct, really does not believe in it. Not deep, deep down. The fact that the word exists at all, proves just how foolish mankind became.

Like the old joke says: The first thing a professed atheist does when their plane is going down - is pray to God. Perhaps you should take the time someday, to read Charnock's Attributes of God. In the first 86 pages are so, he proves that an atheist cannot exist.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

And, you have demonstrated that you are not teachable.

Precious friend, in which case, should we not "follow God's
Recommendation" of 1) "plant" and, then 2) "water" (reasonably
would be IF good questions were still being asked?), and then just
"leave it Up To God To 3) "Give The Increase" (1 Corinthians 3:6)?
+
Romans 16:17? This then, leaves the "Result In God's Hands,"
with Much Less "strife, contention, biting, and devouring," Correct?

An example for this thought:

I believe, on Chat, there is a thread on "the rapture (yes or no?) in
2Thessalonians_2:3" that was Certainly a "dead horse still being
beaten to death" with something like 150,000 postings. Does that
kind of overkill Really "Please God"?

Just wondering...

GRACE And Peace...