Reconciling Matthew 24 and Revelation 6

[Amanuensis]

Didn't say they would miss it. I said they would DENY it.
False teaching within the church causes people to "hang their hat" on an interpretation that may be wrong.
Some are SO convinced that a big new temple MUST be built in Jerusalem before He returns that if he, indeed, returns before the temple is built (AND THEY WITNESS IT) they will deny His coming because of their False belief. (and their Preacher will lead in the denial)
Take your pick of the particular belief. Many denominations are built around specific details like this.
We should not rest our faith in our own understanding. Our understanding will Always be short of the full truth.

I have no idea what you are imagining. Denying that the rapture had occurred? I believe that the rapture will be visible. They will shine like the stars when they are glorified and rise to meet the Lord. If you mean that after that people left behind will deny it was really the rapture that might be true. They probably will deny it since they don't seem to repent.

But if you mean when Jesus comes again to stand on the earth and destroy the Antichrist and his army and set up his 1000 year reign, I don't think anyone is going to be having a conversation about denying that He is here. LOL. Those who would try to deny it would be of the number who are destroyed by Him on that day.

I have no idea what scenario you are imagining where Jesus is supposed to have come back and people don't know, or deny it.
The only scenario where people can deny that Jesus has come back is when false prophets try and tell you that He has. You can be sure that He has not. No one is going to be able to deny it if it He had.

We won't need to have faith that He has come back. We will see it for our own eyes. Every eye shall see Him.

If you imagine a scenario where one is supposed to "believe" that He has returned based on the testimony of someone who tells you then you are being deceived. That is what Jesus was saying. No one will have to tell you and no one will be able to deny it, because deniers will be destroyed by His fiery Glory.

So you must be talking about denying the rapture has occurred. And the only way someone could deny that the rapture had occurred is if it was a pre tribulation rapture. There is no possible scenario to imagine where after a post tribulation rapture anyone is able to deny, since such a denier would be destroyed.

 

[iamsoandso]

Didn't say they would miss it. I said they would DENY it.
False teaching within the church causes people to "hang their hat" on an interpretation that may be wrong.
Some are SO convinced that a big new temple MUST be built in Jerusalem before He returns that if he, indeed, returns before the temple is built (AND THEY WITNESS IT) they will deny His coming because of their False belief. (and their Preacher will lead in the denial)
Take your pick of the particular belief. Many denominations are built around specific details like this.
We should not rest our faith in our own understanding. Our understanding will Always be short of the full truth.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html Did you ever notice that the Jews up until ad70 never once bowed down to Rome nor worshiped their Caesar as God? That in it's self would make Revelation 13 sort of difficult to play pin the tail on the donkey with if one was to try to affix the "worshiped the image part" on the Jews in ad70 if you think about it,,,after all they revolted(1st,2nd,3rd revolt) against Rome and were killed and carried away into captivity because they refused to worship Rome's Caesar as God. So does revolt=worship image? or does it mean they revolted and refused and so one should look elsewhere for those Scriptures fulfillment?

 

[JeffA]

I have no idea what you are imagining. Denying that the rapture had occurred? I believe that the rapture will be visible. They will shine like the stars when they are glorified and rise to meet the Lord. If you mean that after that people left behind will deny it was really the rapture that might be true. They probably will deny it since they don't seem to repent.

But if you mean when Jesus comes again to stand on the earth and destroy the Antichrist and his army and set up his 1000 year reign, I don't think anyone is going to be having a conversation about denying that He is here. LOL. Those who would try to deny it would be of the number who are destroyed by Him on that day.

I have no idea what scenario you are imagining where Jesus is supposed to have come back and people don't know, or deny it.
The only scenario where people can deny that Jesus has come back is when false prophets try and tell you that He has. You can be sure that He has not. No one is going to be able to deny it if it He had.

We won't need to have faith that He has come back. We will see it for our own eyes. Every eye shall see Him.

If you imagine a scenario where one is supposed to "believe" that He has returned based on the testimony of someone who tells you then you are being deceived. That is what Jesus was saying. No one will have to tell you and no one will be able to deny it, because deniers will be destroyed by His fiery Glory.

So you must be talking about denying the rapture has occurred. And the only way someone could deny that the rapture had occurred is if it was a pre tribulation rapture. There is no possible scenario to imagine where after a post tribulation rapture anyone is able to deny, since such a denier would be destroyed.

I should clarify my own understanding.
Jesus is not going to return until the End of the 7 years (Daniel's 70th week).
There will be NO "Rapture" prior to his return.
This 7-year period begins with some sort of "covenant" or "affirmation" of a covenant. An Agreement.
We may, or may not, know when this takes place. It might not even make the News.
The one sign that Jesus says to look for is the "Abomination of Desolation".
This is in the middle of the 7-year period.
Life will be going on as usual with most people unaware that the end-time is at hand (like the times of Noah).

If there is a "rapture" prior to the 7-week period, I'm sure we will all understand what is happening.
I will rejoice in my misunderstanding.
If there is no "rapture" prior to the 7th Trumpet and the arrival of Jesus with his Angels,
How many people will still be waiting for a "Rapture"? (and denying the events at hand)
How many people will be deceived?
How many people will follow their Pastor like sheep when He/She says "this is Not the time of the end"?
Don't underestimate Satan's power to deceive.

And I'm not only talking about the "Rapture".
It could be anything that people are convinced MUST take place before the return of Christ.
Some think every person on earth MUST hear the Gospel first.
Some think a Temple MUST be built in Jerusalem first.
Some think finding a Red Heifer MUST happen first.
There are many other examples and I'm not claiming the "validity" of any of them.
I'm saying that our spiritual "preparedness" should Not lie in our understanding of scripture.
I'm saying it should Not lie in our understanding of our Earthly Teacher's viewpoint.
Put your faith and trust in God alone.

(If we all did this then it would be a much more joyous and edifying occasion to debate scripture and doctrine)

 

[JeffA]

Mat 24
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles vultures will be gathered together.

Whenever I hear someone say "You MUST do this" or "You MUST do that" in order to be saved;
Whenever I hear someone say "This" or "That" MUST happen before the end times;
it brings to mind these passages.

 

[Amanuensis]

I should clarify my own understanding.
Jesus is not going to return until the End of the 7 years (Daniel's 70th week).
There will be NO "Rapture" prior to his return.
This 7-year period begins with some sort of "covenant" or "affirmation" of a covenant. An Agreement.
We may, or may not, know when this takes place. It might not even make the News.
The one sign that Jesus says to look for is the "Abomination of Desolation".
This is in the middle of the 7-year period.
Life will be going on as usual with most people unaware that the end-time is at hand (like the times of Noah).

If there is a "rapture" prior to the 7-week period, I'm sure we will all understand what is happening.
I will rejoice in my misunderstanding.
If there is no "rapture" prior to the 7th Trumpet and the arrival of Jesus with his Angels,
How many people will still be waiting for a "Rapture"? (and denying the events at hand)
How many people will be deceived?
How many people will follow their Pastor like sheep when He/She says "this is Not the time of the end"?
Don't underestimate Satan's power to deceive.

And I'm not only talking about the "Rapture".
It could be anything that people are convinced MUST take place before the return of Christ.
Some think every person on earth MUST hear the Gospel first.
Some think a Temple MUST be built in Jerusalem first.
Some think finding a Red Heifer MUST happen first.
There are many other examples and I'm not claiming the "validity" of any of them.
I'm saying that our spiritual "preparedness" should Not lie in our understanding of scripture.
I'm saying it should Not lie in our understanding of our Earthly Teacher's viewpoint.
Put your faith and trust in God alone.

(If we all did this then it would be a much more joyous and edifying occasion to debate scripture and doctrine)

I think it is obvious that the New Testament teaches that Christians should live ready for the coming of the Lord at any moment. Prophesies about what happens at the end should not cause someone to expect those events instead of the coming of the Lord, since they are supposed to live always ready, this expecting of other events to happen first is obviously a wrong interpretation of prophesy.

What does it mean to live ready? One should be devoted to the health and maturity of the local fellowship, and focused on laboring in the harvest. Praying together as a church.

What are some of the things that we should be doing if we are to look like a biblical example of being ready for the coming of the Lord?

Corporate prayer might be the main thing that was emphasized by Jesus when he said to be ready.

 

[JeffA]

Corporate prayer might be the main thing that was emphasized by Jesus when he said to be ready.

You REALLY need to explain this one to me, please.

 

[JeffA]

I think it is obvious that the New Testament teaches that Christians should live ready for the coming of the Lord at any moment. Prophesies about what happens at the end should not cause someone to expect those events instead of the coming of the Lord, since they are supposed to live always ready, this expecting of other events to happen first is obviously a wrong interpretation of prophesy.

What does it mean to live ready? One should be devoted to the health and maturity of the local fellowship, and focused on laboring in the harvest. Praying together as a church.

What are some of the things that we should be doing if we are to look like a biblical example of being ready for the coming of the Lord?

Corporate prayer might be the main thing that was emphasized by Jesus when he said to be ready.

Matthew 6
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9 After this manner therefore pray ye:

 

[Amanuensis]

Matthew 6
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9 After this manner therefore pray ye:

"The book of Acts."

 

[JeffA]

"The book of Acts."

So, Matthew 6 should not be Red Letters?

 

[Amanuensis]

You REALLY need to explain this one to me, please.

They seemed to be very much focused on meeting together for prayer often in the book of Acts. So much so that one comes away with a revelation that this is what we should be doing as well. T

hat prayer they engaged in seemed to be all about having a corporate conscience that they were in this together and were all about doing what God had ordained for them to do as a body, to pray, take care of each other, and win the lost.

But this prayer seemed to be the foundation for the empowering of the Spirit by which everything else would flow. This was not just on Pentecost, but they kept meeting for prayer through out the book of Acts.

I think those churches today that are getting back to that model are proving that this is what will make them more like the body that is ready for the coming of the Lord because out of it will be birthed a fresh zeal for personal preparedness as it relates to holiness and purity but also a corporate holiness and focus on loving one another and reaching the lost. Corporate prayer is the pattern in Acts.

 

[Amanuensis]

So, Matthew 6 should not be Red Letters?

Matthew wrote Matthew and he and Luke were both inspired by the same Spirit and there is no contradiction.

I don't think it is hard to understand that Jesus was telling them not to have the false motives of the Pharisees and showboat for peoples admiration.

Those that gather with other believers to pray as they did in the Upper Room and so many times after that, they never thought they were in violation of what Jesus taught concerning the way Pharisees prayed. Do I really need to explain this? I don't think I do. Everyone gets it.

When they asked Jesus to teach them to pray (Luke 11) He taught them a corporate prayer. Lead Us, Forgive Us, Deliver Us, etc...

Jesus told them to meet together and pray together. Is anyone denying this because of telling them not to be like the Pharisees? Of course not.

 

[JeffA]

They seemed to be very much focused on meeting together for prayer often in the book of Acts. So much so that one comes away with a revelation that this is what we should be doing as well. T

hat prayer they engaged in seemed to be all about having a corporate conscience that they were in this together and were all about doing what God had ordained for them to do as a body, to pray, take care of each other, and win the lost.

But this prayer seemed to be the foundation for the empowering of the Spirit by which everything else would flow. This was not just on Pentecost, but they kept meeting for prayer through out the book of Acts.

I think those churches today that are getting back to that model are proving that this is what will make them more like the body that is ready for the coming of the Lord because out of it will be birthed a fresh zeal for personal preparedness as it relates to holiness and purity but also a corporate holiness and focus on loving one another and reaching the lost. Corporate prayer is the pattern in Acts.

There is no indication, anywhere, that the people in prayer were reciting the same words. Each was in individual communion.
Many so called "Teacher" prefer a vague description in ACTS to the SPECIFIC instructions of Jesus in Mat 6.

The "teachers" will ONLY refer to Luke regarding the Lord's Prayer, lest anyone spot the preceding versus (in Matthew).

 

[JeffA]

Matthew wrote Matthew and he and Luke were both inspired by the same Spirit and there is no contradiction.

I don't think it is hard to understand that Jesus was telling them not to have the false motives of the Pharisees and showboat for peoples admiration.

Those that gather with other believers to pray as they did in the Upper Room and so many times after that, they never thought they were in violation of what Jesus taught concerning the way Pharisees prayed. Do I really need to explain this? I don't think I do. Everyone gets it.

When they asked Jesus to teach them to pray (Luke 11) He taught them a corporate prayer. Lead Us, Forgive Us, Deliver Us, etc...

Jesus told them to meet together and pray together. Is anyone denying this because of telling them not to be like the Pharisees? Of course not.

He taught them HOW to pray. Not WHAT to pray.

 

[Amanuensis]

There is no indication, anywhere, that the people in prayer were reciting the same words. Each was in individual communion.
Many so called "Teacher" prefer a vague description in ACTS to the SPECIFIC instructions of Jesus in Mat 6.

The "teachers" will ONLY refer to Luke regarding the Lord's Prayer, lest anyone spot the preceding versus (in Matthew).

I am not following you. Luke's abbreviated version is not contradictory. We don't know if Jesus gave these instructions more than once. Since auditory teaching was the mode of scriptural instruction at that time, He probably did. But even without the Lord's prayer example, the book of Acts shows them meeting daily for prayer right off the bat, and many other accounts of them meeting together to pray and so we don't even question that was the norm. So I don't really need to take the time to convince anyone about that. That is an established fact that no one has ever denied in the history of Christianity that I know of. The problem is that many today don't seem to think it is necessary and as a result they are missing so much that they will never know until they start doing it.

And no I don't think it was reciting a prayer. Being part of an AG church you already know what corporate prayer looks like, or should have seen it in action at least once during your AG experiences.

 

[Amanuensis]

He taught them HOW to pray. Not WHAT to pray.

Right. I never thought that He was telling them to recite it verbatim. The "how" seems to indicate that he assumed they would pray for each other and would lift up corporate petetions as a church. Praying that the Lord would mold them as a local fellowship as one body doing the will of God together.

 

[JeffA]

Right. I never thought that He was telling them to recite it verbatim. The "how" seems to indicate that he assumed they would pray for each other and would lift up corporate petetions as a church. Praying that the Lord would mold them as a local fellowship as one body doing the will of God together.

OK. we are in agreement on this.
We should be of one accord/purpose.
I am not in favor of "repeat after me" prayers.
Prayers are a private matter of the heart. You, and others, do not need to hear my words.

BTW. I'm not a member of the AG Church. I bring my music ministry to them on saturday evenings.
I see and hear many things that I disagree with. Maybe I learn something. Maybe I teach something.

 

[Beckie]

Jesus is not going to return until the End of the 7 years (Daniel's 70th week).

What passages of Scripture causes you to believe there is a gap of a coulpe thousand years between the "years of Daniel" ? I will ask another question of the same line? When God gave the prophesy to Daniel do you believe He did not know the rejection of His Son was going to happen? Did He not know He was sending Jesus to the Cross?

Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

OK. we are in agreement on this.
We should be of one accord/purpose.
I am not in favor of "repeat after me" prayers.
Prayers are a private matter of the heart. You, and others, do not need to hear my words.

BTW. I'm not a member of the AG Church. I bring my music ministry to them on saturday evenings.
I see and hear many things that I disagree with. Maybe I learn something. Maybe I teach something.

Corporate prayer is for those who don't know exactly what to say or how to articulate their thoughts, some may have a strong inhibition, too embarrassed or reluctant to confess their sins, some are not sure what's the demon in their life that needs God's intercession. Therefore the pastor leads a corporate prayer before the sermon to speak out for them. There's nothing wrong with that. And the Lord's prayer is just a model that demonstrates how to pray, the purpose is pretty straightforward in both Matthew's and Luke's gospels.

 

[CS1]

I do believe that, as the Body of Christ, we should be focused on “preparation” more than “evangelizing” in this day and age. We are rapidly approaching the “Day of the Lord”.

I am going to lay out my understanding of these scriptures and invite commentary to the effect of edification or correction. My faith is in Christ alone so it will not offend me if I am shown to misunderstand the scriptures. It can only increase my knowledge and understanding.

This topic, specifically is Matthew 24:3-14 and Revelation 6:1-11

Mat 24:4 Jesus' warns against being deceived.

5 Many will come “in Jesus' Name”, saying that Jesus is the Christ. Deceiving many. (paraphrased)

I understand that this passage can include the notion that there will be “false Christs”, too.
That may well be, but, it CERTAINLY refers to deception WITHIN the Church.

Jesus said “IN MY NAME” (refers to himself) and saying “I AM the CHRIST” (again referring to himself). There are no quotes”” in scripture. He could have said conclusively that people would claim to be the Christ. The passage would read more like “saying that THEY are the Christ”.

Rev 6:1-2 The Lamb opens the first seal, the White horse goes forth to conquer (overcome). The rider is given a Bow and a victor's crown.

There are 2 “Main” schools of thought on this.

1. The White Horse is the Antichrist.
   
2. The White Horse is Jesus.

Neither of these are true. We can look to Zechariah for an explanation of the Horses:

Zech 1:7-10
7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the Lord unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying,
8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.
9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
10And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.

And Zech 6:1-5
1 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.
2 In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;
3 And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
4 Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?
5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

So, I understand the “Horses” to be those spirits sent forth for God's purposes.
This means that the White Horse is neither Jesus, nor Antichrist.

I do, however, believe that Jesus' “Olivet Discourse” is pointing to the 4 seals of Revelation. It matches too closely to dismiss.

The rider of the White Horse is the Spirit of “the spreading of the Gospel” that is riding out to conquer (overcome) and wears a victor's crown (Stephanos).

Jesus is warning not to be deceived or led astray from the mission of the Disciples/Apostles.

This brings us to the point that the White Horse begins his ride IMMEDIATELY after Christ's victory on the cross.
I support this in 2 ways:

1. The Olivet Discourse CLEARLY describes a timeframe longer than a 7 year period. In fact, not until the Gospel has been delivered to EVERY Nation, will the END come.
   
2. Rev 5 (let the reader understand) my emphasis

Rev 5 clearly shows a scene in Heaven where all are distressed that none is worthy to open the scroll.
SUDDENLY, the Lamb appears and is worthy. This happened immediately upon Jesus' resurrection and overcoming death. The Lamb then takes the scroll and opens the first seal. Notice that he did NOT wait 2000 years. Jesus began opening the seals immediately upon his victory. Remember, he had to become “worthy” before he could do so. There is no scripture connecting the 1st seal with the beginning of Daniel's 70th week.

It is important to note that the NT Book is called “The Revelation of Jesus Christ” and NOT “The revelation of Daniel's 70th week”.

To keep it short, my understanding is that the opening of the seals began at Jesus' resurrection.

In my estimation, the 5th seal would be more contemporary to the beginning of the 7 years as it seems to suggest a “demarcation point” to tell the martyrs (up to that time) that the final week is beginning.

So, really, the 6th seal might be the first one that we “recognize”.

As Jesus said:
Mat 24:15-22
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: Daniel)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

In closing, I believe that the Gospel HAS been preached to all Nations and the END is near.
My Pastor thinks that “the gospel must be preached to every living soul”. Not true. Jesus will make sure that all who can be saved, will be.


My love to you all. Please, let us Prepare! For He surely will come soon!

One close observation in your post, yet I have a few.

1. we can do both prepare and evangelize.
2. Our Opinion of The Gospel preached to all creatures then the end is completely in God's knowledge, not ours. WE are to occupy til Him comes not to continue until we think we are done.


5 Many will come “in Jesus' Name”, saying that Jesus is the Christ. Deceiving many. (paraphrased)
The Paraphrase here changed the context of the verse. was the underline a paraphrase or an understanding of the verse?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

False Christs will be counterfeit Christs. So the white horse in Revelation 6 is a counterfeit to the white horse in Revelation 19, and the rider is a false Christ -- a counterfeit to the true Christ. Will false Christs deceive many? Absolutely. Therefore this man is depicted as one going forth with a bow to conquer and conquering many.

He also prefigures the coming Antichrist, but there have been at least two dozen false Christs on earth since the first century. Here is what Jesus said at the start of the Olivet Discourse: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

It is significant to note that Christ began the Olivet discourse with a warning about false Messiahs (or Christs). Since the Jews had generally rejected their true Messiah, they would be allowed to be deceived by the Antichrist. But until then many would be deceived by other false Messiahs, the first one being Simon bar Kochba, who led an army against Rome. There is a depiction of bar Kochba riding a white horse, but this software does not allow me to post a smaller image.

"It was Rabbi Akiva who ascribed to Shimon bar Kochba the famous messianic verse: “A star will shoot forth from Jacob” (Numbers 24:17). That is how he got the name “Kochba,” which means “star.” In essence, Rabbi Akiva crowned him the Messiah. Rabbi Akiva was so widely respected among the people that if he saw in Shimon messianic qualities then the people immediately elevated him to the level of the Messiah. This helps us understand very well why the Christians would take no part in the war; it would have made one messiah too many."
https://www.jewishhistory.org/bar-kochba/

Re: Bar Kochba, is this any good? I think it illustrates your point without being too big.

Source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/unear...o-when-jewish-rebels-tried-to-stamp-out-rome/