Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

[FreeGrace2]

Hmmm no I don’t think so. I say that baptism saves because the Bible says that.

Not true. The Bible says that literal water symbolizes the baptism that saves. The baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, proven by the record of Cornelius.

Acts 10-
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Now, the explanation from ch 11-
14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

If these verses don't convince you, you apparently just don't want to be.

Re: 1 Cor 15:29, do you believe in baptism by proxy? Because that is what Paul was referring to.

Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

The question posed (in red) shows a proxy baptism.

You claim water baptism is required to be in the resurrection. So then, you must also believe that proxy baptism is good enough to cover those who died without water baptism.

If not, please explain yourself thoroughly. Thanks.

 

[Wansvic]

Fulfill is the key word. Prophecy fulfilled as John the Baptist prophecized Jesus's coming. The one who would take away the sin of the world.

The Word indicates the need for everyone to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I am aware of the OT foreshadows that later became the NT water baptism for remission of sin in association with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

“The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: and the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: the grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭40:3-8‬ ‭

johns ministry was preparing them to hear the gospel the eternal
Word of God

“being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

For All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:23-25‬ ‭KJV‬

baptism for remission of sins prepares the heart and mind to hear and believe the word of God the gospel

 

[Wansvic]

Unfortunately for your way of discernment, you only think SOME verses are true.
My base premise is that all of scripture is true.
Therefore, all scripture must reconcile.
My understanding reconciles the scripture.
You disregard things like John 3:16 and Ephesians 4:5.
If you don't reconcile all scripture, your understanding is flawed.
You also seem to think that every time the word "Baptism" is used, it means "Water".
The word simply means "immersion". As in, "immerse yourself in Jesus Christ".

All scripture is true. Reading the entire third chapter of John brings clarity to the salvation issue. Heb. 5:9 points out that Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him. True belief will always result in action to God's commands.

Ephesians 4:5 - The baptism referred to is water baptism. Jesus made it clear in Matt. 28:19 that everyone must be water baptized. Note that people assist others in administering water baptism. Whereas, God fills people with the gift of the Holy Ghost

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.

 

[Wansvic]

Are you kidding??? "the thief died under the OT" - this is completely absurd.

The LORD is on the Cross fulifilling OT Prophecy of the NEW COVENANT.

The Thief was SAVED by FAITH in the NEW COVENANT who was on the CROSS next to him.

The need to repent, and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and receive the Holy Ghost brought about the NT spiritual rebirth. The spiritual rebirth was not available to anyone until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

 

[Wansvic]

FreeGrace2 said:
In order to believe in Christ, one automatically repents. For repentance is a change of mind.

Water baptism is NO MORE a requirement for salvation than circumcision.

The reception of the Holy Spirit is the new birth.

Then prove it with Scripture.


Well, it seems you think that repentance is a visible lifestyle change. That would be your error.

In order to believe in the saving work of Jesus, one MUST change their mind about their own sinfulness, their own inability to save themselves, etc.


v.40 says nothing about soul salvation. Peter was telling them to separate themselves from "this untoward generation".

Do you actually believe that human beings are even capable of "saving themselves" as it seems you do?

Paul didn't tell the jailer to save himself. He told him to believe in Jesus Christ.

Do you understand the difference?

Scripture can not be more clear. Repentance is required after believing in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. It involves turning away from one's old lifestyle and turning to God. This is evidenced in one's willingness to accept God's truth and act in obedience to His commands. (Acts 2:38-42) Afterward as Paul said we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. This involves confessing Jesus to other.

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

 

[DavidTree]

The need to repent, and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and receive the Holy Ghost brought about the NT spiritual rebirth. The spiritual rebirth was not available to anyone until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

This is not accurate.

"Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer." - Deut ch10

For thus says the Lord to the men of Judah and Jerusalem:
“Break up your fallow ground,
And do not sow among thorns.
Circumcise yourselves to the Lord,
And take away the foreskins of your hearts,
You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,
Lest My fury come forth like fire,
And burn so that no one can quench it,
Because of the evil of your doings. - Jeremiah ch4

"And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." Deut 30:6

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."
Romans 2:28

 

[FreeGrace2]

Scripture can not be more clear. Repentance is required after believing in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

I've already explained that repentance is what occurs WHEN a person places their faith/trust in the work of Christ on the cross.

A person cannot believe something until they change their mind about something. That is called repentance.

It involves turning away from one's old lifestyle and turning to God.

This is what the Pharisees thought. They thought a "good lifestyle" would save them. They were dead wrong.

This is evidenced in one's willingness to accept God's truth and act in obedience to His commands. (Acts 2:38-42) Afterward as Paul said we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. This involves confessing Jesus to other.

All obedience FOLLOWS faith in Christ. Obedience to lifestyles FOR salvation perverts the grace gospel.

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

The crowd here was unique, in that they had seen the miracles yet denied His Deity. That isn't possible today, nor for the next generation of Jews. So what Peter told them was unique to them. It doesn't apply to anyone since then.

 

[Wansvic]

This is not accurate.

"Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer." - Deut ch10

For thus says the Lord to the men of Judah and Jerusalem:
“Break up your fallow ground,
And do not sow among thorns.
Circumcise yourselves to the Lord,
And take away the foreskins of your hearts,
You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,
Lest My fury come forth like fire,
And burn so that no one can quench it,
Because of the evil of your doings. - Jeremiah ch4

"And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." Deut 30:6

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."
Romans 2:28

Water baptism for remission of sin is by God's design. Many scriptures confirm that one's belief and obedience to water baptism is when God remits one's personal sin. (Mark 1:1-5, 16:15-18, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38, 22:16...) And this lines up with what Jesus said in John 3:3-7.

Whether to accept or reject this truth is one all must make. According to Jesus all will be judged by the word.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

All scripture is true. Reading the entire third chapter of John brings clarity to the salvation issue. Heb. 5:9 points out that Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him. True belief will always result in action to God's commands.

Ephesians 4:5 - The baptism referred to is water baptism. Jesus made it clear in Matt. 28:19 that everyone must be water baptized. Note that people assist others in administering water baptism. Whereas, God fills people with the gift of the Holy Ghost

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.

The need to repent, and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and receive the Holy Ghost brought about the NT spiritual rebirth. The spiritual rebirth was not available to anyone until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

yes I don’t think a lot of people realize Jesus words he preached before death , are the New Testament and when we get baptized we’re moving from the law of Moses to the doctrine of Christ and his word and blood.

what Jesus preached before he died was for the church which would afterwards receive the spirit

“And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus had to first preach the gospel and then die and be raised up for it to take effect baptism is rooted in moving from the ot to nt doctrine and worship

 

[Wansvic]

I've already explained that repentance is what occurs WHEN a person places their faith/trust in the work of Christ on the cross.

A person cannot believe something until they change their mind about something. That is called repentance.


This is what the Pharisees thought. They thought a "good lifestyle" would save them. They were dead wrong.


All obedience FOLLOWS faith in Christ. Obedience to lifestyles FOR salvation perverts the grace gospel.


The crowd here was unique, in that they had seen the miracles yet denied His Deity. That isn't possible today, nor for the next generation of Jews. So what Peter told them was unique to them. It doesn't apply to anyone since then.

Obedience to God's established plan to acquire one's spiritual rebirth made available through the resurrection of Jesus has nothing with living a good lifestyle.

All of humanity was given the same gospel message as confirmed in the word. Peter presented the message to the Jews and Gentiles, and assisted in the Samaritans receiving the Holy Ghost. Ananias told Paul to comply as well. And Paul informed the Ephesus disciples in Acts 19.

 

[DavidTree]

Water baptism for remission of sin is by God's design. Many scriptures confirm that one's belief and obedience to water baptism is when God remits one's personal sin. (Mark 1:1-5, 16:15-18, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38, 22:16...) And this lines up with what Jesus said in John 3:3-7.

Whether to accept or reject this truth is one all must make. According to Jesus all will be judged by the word.

When was Noah saved - before or after the flood?

 

[DavidTree]

I've already explained that repentance is what occurs WHEN a person places their faith/trust in the work of Christ on the cross.

A person cannot believe something until they change their mind about something. That is called repentance.


This is what the Pharisees thought. They thought a "good lifestyle" would save them. They were dead wrong.


All obedience FOLLOWS faith in Christ. Obedience to lifestyles FOR salvation perverts the grace gospel.


The crowd here was unique, in that they had seen the miracles yet denied His Deity. That isn't possible today, nor for the next generation of Jews. So what Peter told them was unique to them. It doesn't apply to anyone since then.

You said: "The crowd here was unique, in that they had seen the miracles yet denied His Deity. That isn't possible today, nor for the next generation of Jews. So what Peter told them was unique to them. It doesn't apply to anyone since then."

This is half-true and half-false(maybe)

False(maybe) = "It dosen't apply to anyone since then"

Unless i am reading your quote wrong, therefore i ask you = What doesn't apply and to whom???

 

[Wansvic]

yes I don’t think a lot of people realize Jesus words he preached before death , are the New Testament and when we get baptized we’re moving from the law of Moses to the doctrine of Christ and his word and blood.

what Jesus preached before he died was for the church which would afterwards receive the spirit

“And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus had to first preach the gospel and then die and be raised up for it to take effect baptism is rooted in moving from the ot to nt doctrine and worship

Your points are really good. Hopefully people will at least consider what you've presented!

 

[Wansvic]

When was Noah saved - before or after the flood?

God changes not. He has always required obedience.

Do you accept or reject what scripture says is required in order for one's sins to be remitted? (Mark 1:1-5, 16:15-18, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38, 22:16...)

 

[DavidTree]

God changes not. He has always required obedience.

Do you accept or reject what scripture says is required in order for one's sins to be remitted? (Mark 1:1-5, 16:15-18, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38, 22:16...)

i FULLY accept ALL that the Spirit and the Word and the Scripture speak of.

When was Noah saved - before or after the Flood?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Obedience to God's established plan to acquire one's spiritual rebirth made available through the resurrection of Jesus has nothing with living a good lifestyle.

That's what your posts sure sound like.

All of humanity was given the same gospel message as confirmed in the word.

True. Where do you find water baptism for salvation in Genesis?

Peter presented the message to the Jews and Gentiles, and assisted in the Samaritans receiving the Holy Ghost.

In the early development of the church, things weren't uniform. On the day of Pentecost, ALL Jewish believers received the Holy Spirit.

It was not uniform for Gentiles though. In Acts 10, Gentiles received the Holy Spirit upon belief in the gospel, BEFORE they were water baptized. However, there were Gentile believers in Acts 19 that Paul had to lay his hands on before they received the Holy Spirit.

But, by the time Paul wrote Galatians, he was very clear about how EVERYONE received the Holy Spirit: through faith.

Gal 3:2,5 says so plainly.

Ananias told Paul to comply as well. And Paul informed the Ephesus disciples in Acts 19.

Go ahead and ignore Cornelius and his family/friends. Doesn't matter. By Gal 3:2,5 EVERYONE receives the Holy Spirit by faith.

 

[DavidTree]

That's what your posts sure sound like.


True. Where do you find water baptism for salvation in Genesis?


In the early development of the church, things weren't uniform. On the day of Pentecost, ALL Jewish believers received the Holy Spirit.

It was not uniform for Gentiles though. In Acts 10, Gentiles received the Holy Spirit upon belief in the gospel, BEFORE they were water baptized. However, there were Gentile believers in Acts 19 that Paul had to lay his hands on before they received the Holy Spirit.

But, by the time Paul wrote Galatians, he was very clear about how EVERYONE received the Holy Spirit: through faith.

Gal 3:2,5 says so plainly.


Go ahead and ignore Cornelius and his family/friends. Doesn't matter. By Gal 3:2,5 EVERYONE receives the Holy Spirit by faith.

Acts ch19 is crucial to understanding 1 Corinthians.

Also: Why did they not yet have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - which, again, is crucial to understanding.

CLUE: It has ZERO/NOTHING to due with them being Gentiles.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said: "The crowd here was unique, in that they had seen the miracles yet denied His Deity. That isn't possible today, nor for the next generation of Jews. So what Peter told them was unique to them. It doesn't apply to anyone since then."

This is half-true and half-false(maybe)

False(maybe) = "It dosen't apply to anyone since then"

Unless i am reading your quote wrong, therefore i ask you = What doesn't apply and to whom???

What Peter told the crowd to do, and they already were "cut to the heart". It's quite possible they already accepted what Peter said about Jesus; that He was the Messiah. In that case, they were already saved, based on their belief.

If water baptism applies to everyone since then for salvation, then salvation requires water baptism.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God changes not. He has always required obedience.

Do you accept or reject what scripture says is required in order for one's sins to be remitted? (Mark 1:1-5, 16:15-18, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38, 22:16...)

What do you mean by "remitted". Use modern English please.

Acts 10:43 is plain: All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Luke was referring to the OT writers, obviously.