Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

[Runningman]

Of all the times the word baptism is used, how many refer to this death Jesus is facing?

I would say, very very few.

Whereas comparatively speaking, there are a great many more concerning the
baptism we are really talking about here, which some say is by water (as if being
dunked in H20 is going to save anyone), and some say refers to the baptism of fire
and Holy Spirit, as "the greatest of all men" (according to Jesus) proclaimed.

It’s just figurative language in this case, Jesus referring to His sufferings as a baptism. That’s an accurate picture since Jesus was immersed in sufferings.

Luke 12:50
50But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Jesus also called it a cup:

Matthew 20:22
22But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

This is just imagery used for illustration.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

No, He’s refuting Nicodemus’ proposal that a man can go into his mother a second time. So when Jesus said “must be born of water” He was referring to literal water, not embryonic fluid associated with being physically born.





I’m sorry you see that the Bible has contradictions. I think it’s more likely that you just aren’t understanding the scriptures that say “faith alone saves” and the scriptures that say “baptism saves.”

These two ideas of being saved through faith and baptism can be harmonized, but your interpretation seems to be unable to reconcile the two.

The whole point of this thread, from my perspective, is about showing that water baptism is required to be in the resurrection.

I think you misunderstand the context with Nicodemus.

I was pointing out your contradiction not that I have one.

Water baptism for resurrection is different than those who claim it for salvation.

I see it is neither but simply an outward expression and confession of their new faith.

 

[Runningman]

I think you misunderstand the context with Nicodemus.

I was pointing out your contradiction not that I have one.

Water baptism for resurrection is different than those who claim it for salvation.

I see it is neither but simply an outward expression and confession of their new faith.

Hmmm no I don’t think so. I say that baptism saves because the Bible says that. You say that baptism is “simply an outward expression and confession of their new faith.” Where the Bible says nothing of the sort.

That means you’re the one who has a contradiction my friend, not me. People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

 

[DavidTree]

I think you misunderstand the context with Nicodemus.

I was pointing out your contradiction not that I have one.

Water baptism for resurrection is different than those who claim it for salvation.

I see it is neither but simply an outward expression and confession of their new faith.

"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

the Apostles Peter and Paul has the final say on this matter - 1 Peter 3:18-21 and Romans 10:7-9

WITNESS PETER = For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water. = Noah believed God = Faith to build the Ark BEFORE baptism
And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body,
but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

WITNESS PAUL = The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

the Apostles Peter and Paul has the final say on this matter - 1 Peter 3:18-21 and Romans 10:7-9

WITNESS PETER = For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water. = Noah believed God = Faith to build the Ark BEFORE baptism
And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body,
but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

WITNESS PAUL = The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So clear thank you.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Hmmm no I don’t think so. I say that baptism saves because the Bible says that. You say that baptism is “simply an outward expression and confession of their new faith.” Where the Bible says nothing of the sort.

That means you’re the one who has a contradiction my friend, not me. People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

I have a few windows but mostly my house is made of wood.

But I agree the baptism of the Holy Spirit saves. We are debating over baptisms in plural.


Jeremiah 17:13
New International Version
13 Lord, you are the hope (Mikvah)
of Israel; all who forsake you will be put to shame.
Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the Lord, the spring of living water.

Mikvah being a Hebrew word that symbolizes the OT method of baptism is the symbolism fulfilled by Jesus who is the living water.

 

[DavidTree]

I have a few windows but mostly my house is made of wood.

But I agree the baptism of the Holy Spirit saves. We are debating over baptisms in plural.


Jeremiah 17:13
New International Version
13 Lord, you are the hope (Mikvah)
of Israel; all who forsake you will be put to shame.
Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the Lord, the spring of living water.

Mikvah being a Hebrew word that symbolizes the OT method of baptism is the symbolism fulfilled by Jesus who is the living water.

The True Holy Water that washes us clean on the inside.

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
Ephesians 5:25-26

 

[DavidTree]

I have a few windows but mostly my house is made of wood.

But I agree the baptism of the Holy Spirit saves. We are debating over baptisms in plural.


Jeremiah 17:13
New International Version
13 Lord, you are the hope (Mikvah)
of Israel; all who forsake you will be put to shame.
Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the Lord, the spring of living water.

Mikvah being a Hebrew word that symbolizes the OT method of baptism is the symbolism fulfilled by Jesus who is the living water.

The Saving Mikvah takes place in our hearts BEFORE the outward water baptism = always.

Religion reverses the order in an attempt to prevent the internal washing of the Word on our souls/hearts.
Thus they baptize infants and/or people get water baptized because, "well everyone in the church does" so there.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The Saving Mikvah takes place in our hearts BEFORE the outward water baptism = always.

Religion reverses the order in an attempt to prevent the internal washing of the Word on our souls/hearts.
Thus they baptize infants and/or people get water baptized because, "well everyone in the church does" so there.

Churches love their traditions

 

[DavidTree]

Churches love their traditions

i was saved/born-again about a year before i was water baptized.
i am not against water baptism.
Salvation, as you full well know, comes from the Spirit and within a man = "the wind blows where it wishes........."

 

[Runningman]

I have a few windows but mostly my house is made of wood.

But I agree the baptism of the Holy Spirit saves. We are debating over baptisms in plural.


Jeremiah 17:13
New International Version
13 Lord, you are the hope (Mikvah)
of Israel; all who forsake you will be put to shame.
Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the Lord, the spring of living water.

Mikvah being a Hebrew word that symbolizes the OT method of baptism is the symbolism fulfilled by Jesus who is the living water.

Okay then. Is the gift of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit the same? Can there be numerous receptions of the Holy Spirit? Behold the Holy Scriptures of God!

The 11 disciples receive the Holy Spirit before Pentecost:
John 20:22
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost

The 11 disciples are promised power from the Holy Spirit on Pentecost:
Acts 1:8
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Filled the Holy Spirit, receives power on the day of Pentecost:
Acts 2:1-4
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

So where do we clearly delineate between the gift of the Holy Spirit, baptism of the Holy Spirit, and why does this seem to occur multiple times when there is only "one baptism?"
Ephesians 4:5
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

One baptism? Consider that there is not an example of anyone getting water baptized more than one time. That's probably a clue.

 

[Blain]

Okay then. Is the gift of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit the same? Can there be numerous receptions of the Holy Spirit? Behold the Holy Scriptures of God!

The 11 disciples receive the Holy Spirit before Pentecost:
John 20:22
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost

The 11 disciples are promised power from the Holy Spirit on Pentecost:
Acts 1:8
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Filled the Holy Spirit, receives power on the day of Pentecost:
Acts 2:1-4
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

So where do we clearly delineate between the gift of the Holy Spirit, baptism of the Holy Spirit, and why does this seem to occur multiple times when there is only "one baptism?"
Ephesians 4:5
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

One baptism? Consider that there is not an example of anyone getting water baptized more than one time. That's probably a clue.

The only time the spirit is mention to be in the believer beforehand is with the apostles when they were with Jesus which is a different case being they had a direct access to the holy spirirt eveery time after that it was the baptism of the holy spirit that came about the gifts and the works of the church, there have been instances when people have been anointed with a greater amount of the spirit later on but this is more of an anointing thatn anything sort of adding on what is already there

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Okay then. Is the gift of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit the same? Can there be numerous receptions of the Holy Spirit? Behold the Holy Scriptures of God!

The 11 disciples receive the Holy Spirit before Pentecost:
John 20:22
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost

The 11 disciples are promised power from the Holy Spirit on Pentecost:
Acts 1:8
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Filled the Holy Spirit, receives power on the day of Pentecost:
Acts 2:1-4
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

So where do we clearly delineate between the gift of the Holy Spirit, baptism of the Holy Spirit, and why does this seem to occur multiple times when there is only "one baptism?"
Ephesians 4:5
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

One baptism? Consider that there is not an example of anyone getting water baptized more than one time. That's probably a clue.

Spiritual gifts are from the Spirit and not the gift of the Spirit itself. The disciples gained the Spirit on the day of Pentecost. One baptism by fire and Spirit they began to show gifts of the Spirit (speaking in tongues, healing, etc.)

 

[Runningman]

Spiritual gifts are from the Spirit and not the gift of the Spirit itself. The disciples gained the Spirit on the day of Pentecost. One baptism by fire and Spirit they began to show gifts of the Spirit (speaking in tongues, healing, etc.)

They received the Holy Spirit before Pentecost then on Pentecost they were filled with the Holy Spirit. That’s not “one baptism”, that’s at least two baptisms and quite frankly there are additional Holy Spirit baptisms in Acts; making the total of times some people have been Holy Spirit baptized at least three.

This shows a necessity of continual refilling of Holy Spirit, but does that mean the Holy Spirit leaves people? What’s happening here exactly.

If you maintain the baptism of the Holy Spirit only happens one time, then you must confess that receiving the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit are two different things.

 

[Runningman]

The only time the spirit is mention to be in the believer beforehand is with the apostles when they were with Jesus which is a different case being they had a direct access to the holy spirirt eveery time after that it was the baptism of the holy spirit that came about the gifts and the works of the church, there have been instances when people have been anointed with a greater amount of the spirit later on but this is more of an anointing thatn anything sort of adding on what is already there

Did you know there are examples in Acts where some of the disciples are filled at least a third time with the Holy Spirit? I can start quoting these scriptures but surely you know them.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Paul also being a early church father gave us a clear example how one must be saved.

Acts 16:30-31
New International Version

30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Brother Roughsoul.

Yes, and what happened immediately afterward?

Acts 16:32-34
New International Version

"32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. 34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household."

Baptism and Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior go together. We read Acts 16, now let's look at Mark 16: The Lord Himself said "16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16).

Why would He add "and is baptized" here if Baptism were not an essential component of Full Salvation, and had nothing to do with it?

If you wish to say "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved", you are free to do so. But we are equally free to believe Mark 16:16.

The Early Church Fathers also unanimously understood (as St. Augustine and St. Chrysostom, among other Church Fathers show) Titus 3:5 to be a reference to Water Baptism, "the Washing of Regeneration AND the Inner Renewal of the Holy Spirit" of is what the Lord calls being "born again of water AND (not OR) the Holy Spirit." The idea is that both happen together and at the same time in Baptism.

Here are both verses again, in the same NIV that you quoted from:

"Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." (Jn 3:5)

"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit," (Tit 3:5)

If you read John 3 fully, you see there is emphasis on both Baptism and Belief in Him. In 3:22-26, His disciples baptize more than John. So the context also suggests being "born again of water" refers to supernatural rebirth/regeneration in Baptism and not natural birth.

Regarding the reason infants are baptized, we believe Acts 2 supports that when St. Peter explicitly says "39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:39) in the context of Baptism and being filled with the Holy Spirit. There would have been many children there, and Scripture records that all of them were told to be baptized.

God Bless.

 

[DavidTree]

Did you know there are examples in Acts where some of the disciples are filled at least a third time with the Holy Spirit? I can start quoting these scriptures but surely you know them.

Allow the Gospel of John, Acts and 1 Corinthians to be your Scriptural Foundation with the Holy Spirit as your Guide to unlock the Blessings therein, thru Jesus Christ our Lord - amen

Always seek to be filled with the Holy Spirit as we walk with Him in what HE has already given to us.

 

[Blain]

Did you know there are examples in Acts where some of the disciples are filled at least a third time with the Holy Spirit? I can start quoting these scriptures but surely you know them.

Yes like i said there are instances when believers are anointed with a greater amount of the spirit kind of adding on to what is already there

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Spiritual gifts are from the Spirit and not the gift of the Spirit itself. The disciples gained the Spirit on the day of Pentecost. One baptism by fire and Spirit they began to show gifts of the Spirit (speaking in tongues, healing, etc.)

Correct, Precious friend: God's Gift (Of The Doubly Humble Spirit) Sent
By The Father And The SON (John 14:26, 15:26), Fulfilling God's Promise
(Joel 2:27-29), Baptism (By Christ) With The Spirit, For powers, signs, and wonders (Mark 16:17-18; Acts 5:16), according to Prophecy

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

According to The Mystery, for the Body Of Christ, today, Under GRACE,
Where God Now Has Only ONE Baptism (not water), By The Holy Spirit,
where we Now have no signs and wonders, but:

"walk by faith, not by sight...," (2 Corinthians 5:7),
"In The Spirit" (Romans 8:9; Galatians 5:16, 25),
where this "faith worketh by love" (Galatians 5:6).

Power? Certainly, we "glory in our infirmities" (2 Corinthians 12:9)
Full study: GRACE Word for infirmities
----------------------------------------
More Differences/Distinctions in either "link" Prophecy or Mystery

GRACE And Peace...

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
In order to believe in Christ, one automatically repents. For repentance is a change of mind.

Water baptism is NO MORE a requirement for salvation than circumcision.

The reception of the Holy Spirit is the new birth.

This understanding is refuted by the biblical record.

Then prove it with Scripture.

Notice the people present at the Day of Pentecost did not automatically repent when they believed in Jesus.

Well, it seems you think that repentance is a visible lifestyle change. That would be your error.

In order to believe in the saving work of Jesus, one MUST change their mind about their own sinfulness, their own inability to save themselves, etc.

It was only after they asked what they must do that Peter told them to repent, be baptized for the remission of sin and receive the Holy Ghost. Also noteworthy are verses 40-41. It was only after the people believed and obeyed Peter's message that they were saved.

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

v.40 says nothing about soul salvation. Peter was telling them to separate themselves from "this untoward generation".

Do you actually believe that human beings are even capable of "saving themselves" as it seems you do?

Paul didn't tell the jailer to save himself. He told him to believe in Jesus Christ.

Do you understand the difference?