Why do so many Churches teach a salvation doctrine opposed the the one Jesus taught?

[gb9]

Are you suggesting we can murder, or steal, or worship, Baal?

are you suggesting that gentiles are under the Law, which they never were?

 

[Goliath]

Very few people/groups will come right out and admit that they view Paul's writings as more important than those of Jesus. But it is evidenced when it is constantly stated and emphasized that salvation is by faith alone and not by works - and then Jesus' teachings in the Sermon on the Mount are viewed as unattainable or as extra points if you decide to try to do some of them.

I remember years ago my father and I got into a discussion about Grace. He taught and believed in the Grace, men teach, that Grace which they believe is supported by Pauls Epistles. I asked him...Weren't Pauls
epistles founded upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ?....To which he said yes. I then asked him to show me the teachings of Grace in the Gospel of Christ...where Jesus taught Grace, as he believed Paul taught it.
I told him...Take your time, and when you have your answer...call me.
After waiting two weeks I called him, and he told me what I had hoped he would discover. That discover.....Jesus never even used the word Grace in the his Gospel.
I then asked,,,Now if Paul founded his teachings of Grace on the teachings of Jesus Christ.

What did this prove?
Two things...
One...The teachings from Author of Salvation were focused on love.
The teachings in the church are founded upon a definition of Grace...not found anywhere on the lips of our Lord and Savior.
Did Jesus teach Grace?
Absolutely!! But those who try to found their teachings on Pauls epistles, which are founded upon the teachings of Jesus Christ, will not find their teachings of Grace in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Where does Jesus teach Grace?
(John 14:21) is the hub....that makes the wheel go round, and that should be the foundational teaching on Grace.
"Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

 

[Goliath]

are you suggesting that gentiles are under the Law, which they never were?

Brother...something for you to ponder.
You have a sin (singular) in your life you struggle with. When you commit this sin..without fail..God punishes you for breaking this Law. Now if you are being punished for breaking this Law, wouldn't that in itself....prove that when you received the Gift of the Holy Spirit, God has placed you under this Law?
Hopefully you can now understand the following, in the context, in which it was written.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
(Romans 2:12)

 

[gb9]

Brother...something for you to ponder.
You have a sin (singular) in your life you struggle with. When you commit this sin..without fail..God punishes you for breaking this Law. Now if you are being punished for breaking this Law, wouldn't that in itself....prove that when you received the Gift of the Holy Spirit, God has placed you under this Law?
Hopefully you can now understand the following, in the context, in which it was written.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
(Romans 2:12)

if you go 2 verses on, you will see Paul said gentiles do not have the Law.

 

[Goliath]

are you suggesting that gentiles are under the Law, which they never were?

But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.
(Romans 6:17)

What do we come to obey from the heart?

“This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”
(Hebrews 10:16)

What does God put on our hearts?
Believe it..or not..it’s the Law!!

 

[gb9]

But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.
(Romans 6:17)

What do we come to obey from the heart?

“This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”
(Hebrews 10:16)

What does God put on our hearts?
Believe it..or not..it’s the Law!!

Christians obey this- believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Jesus said to love the Lord and love you neighbor.

God the Father said when Jesus was transfigured, said in the presence of Moses ( the Law) snd Elijah ( the Prophets), " this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. hear HIM!"

so, the Words of Christ are above the Law and Prophets.

so, try your next judeaizer trick.

 

[Goliath]

Christians obey this- believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Jesus said to love the Lord and love you neighbor.

God the Father said when Jesus was transfigured, said in the presence of Moses ( the Law) snd Elijah ( the Prophets), " this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. hear HIM!"

so, the Words of Christ are above the Law and Prophets.

so, try your next judeaizer trick.

In case you didn’t know, name calling is a sign of immaturity. Follow your doctrine, or the one Jesus taught in the gospels..your choice

 

[ChristianTonyB]

Christians obey this- believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Jesus said to love the Lord and love you neighbor.

God the Father said when Jesus was transfigured, said in the presence of Moses ( the Law) snd Elijah ( the Prophets), " this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. hear HIM!"

so, the Words of Christ are above the Law and Prophets.

so, try your next judeaizer trick.

I guess a question needs to be asked, what is actually meant by 'to believe on the Lord'.

Jesus indicated all the requirements stipulated by the law and the prophets are met by applying the two new commandments He gave us.

 

[kaylagrl]

Are you suggesting we can murder, or steal, or worship, Baal?

I'm saying we cannot keep all the law and that is why Christ came. I don't suggest, I say what I mean.

 

[Chester]

When you say sola scripture ,what does that mean?Some people think we should be under the Old covenant scriptures And the New covenant scripture,so then sola scripture meaning scripture alone sounds like keeping the OT And NT since they are both the WORD of GOD! But we are not under the old covenant the administration of death which we can’t be true to scripture perfectly anyway the way that GOD would accept so then Old covenant scripture to me would not linger over the heads of those receiving GRACE and that grace by faith that JESUS has justified,those that believe In HIM.

LOL! I should have thought this might happen! I do not like the 5 solas nor do I hold to them. I consider them man's attempts at doctrine rather than abiding by the simple teachings of Scripture.

The post you responded to was after a series of interchanges where I was discussing what I don't like about the 5 solas. Trace the conversations back and you will find it. The last one you responded to was because someone just asked what was meant by a "sola".

 

[Chester]

Those 5 solas sound good and I know they've been used as 'catch phrases for decades', but I do have questions as in regards to Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. When you speak of Sola Scriptura, you are referring to Scripture Alone as the source of God's word, the Bible, Old and New Testament.

So, if Sola Scriptura, Scripture alone, and Sola Fide, Faith alone, are true it would say that in the Bible. Could you please point out where the Bible, either Old or New Testament teaches Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide? I can't seem to find such references in the Bible. Where in the Bible does it state Scripture alone or Faith alone? If it's not in the Bible, then it's a man made tradition and not biblical. Thanks

LOL! I should have thought this might happen! I do not like the 5 solas nor do I hold to them. I consider them man's attempts at doctrine rather than abiding by the simple teachings of Scripture.

The post you responded to was after a series of interchanges where I was discussing what I don't like about the 5 solas. Trace the conversations back and you will find it. The last one you responded to was because someone just asked what was meant by a "sola".

 

[Grandpa]

Are you suggesting we can murder, or steal, or worship, Baal?

I suggest we already do those things. Some unknowingly. Some knowingly.

The only salvation from this is in the Lord Jesus. Our only Hope is in the Lord Jesus.

 

[Grandpa]

In case you didn’t know, name calling is a sign of immaturity. Follow your doctrine, or the one Jesus taught in the gospels..your choice

You don't understand the doctrine the Lord Jesus taught in the gospels.

You think you do. But not understanding Paul is the first sign that you DON'T.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Rest from what? What is causing this labour and to be heavily laden?

Matthew 5:20-22
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Its the Law that the Lord Jesus is giving us this rest FROM. It is the Law that is causing people to labour and be heavily laden.


We are no longer under that Law when we come to the Lord Jesus. We are under His Grace.

John 15:4-5
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Understanding this comes by the Holy Spirit. It comes by doing the things the Lord Jesus said to do. Or rather, trying to. And then finding out that you can do nothing without Jesus. Then the scriptures begin to become clear. And this is a gift of God.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Just wondering where you're getting these sola's from. They sure aren't in the Bible.
You say Sola Fide, and the Bible does mention being saved through faith many times, but never by faith alone. In fact, the Bible says the opposite in James, 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Those last four words say, “not by faith only”: or “alone”. James goes on further to say faith without works is dead. So, where does the Bible say faith alone? Thanks

As for Sola Scriptura, the Bible disputes that also. It is never taught in the Bible. For sure, Scripture is a standard of God's truth but certainly not the only standard. In 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul says to "hold fast to the traditions we taught you, either written or by WORD OF MOUTH. And in 1 Timothy it states that it is the Church that is the standard for truth, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

In fact there was no Bible for 300 years after Christ ascended and Bibles were very few and far between until the printing press came along in the 1540's. Even then 90% of the population couldn't read. So how could the Bible be the only source of God's truth?

I'm just asking where you're finding these 5 solas in the Bible or are they just a man made tradition. If they are true, they must be explicitly stated somewhere in the Bible. You say, "Scripture Alone, but if not in the Bible, where did they come from? Thanks.

The Roman Catholic Church holds the erroneous and heretical position that their tradition and dictates of the pope are equal with the authority of Scripture. A blasphemous position.

"82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence." Source

Sola Scriptura holds the position that the Scriptures alone are the final authority of all matters of faith and practice.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

God's word alone is pure and uncontaminated. It is infallible. It is God's Word.

John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Grace you accurately quote, " 2 Timothy 3:16-17, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Unfortunately, for your interpretation/point of view on that Scripture passage is wrong, In fact, you distort it's meaning. You don't want to hear this but, it says 'All Scripture' and definitely not 'Only Scripture. HUGE DIFFERENCE. I agree that all Scripture is God's truth, Bible/Old Testament/New Testament. No question about that.

As an analogy, if a person is studying to be a doctor, the Professor may teach him/her that the study of ALL ANATOMY will help you to be a good doctor. But that's surely not the same as saying ONLY the study of Anatomy will help you be a good doctor. NOT THE SAME AT ALL.

But you are trying to get the Scripture to say ONLY SCRIPTURE and it clearly does not. Paul clearly tells us that Sola Scriptura is not true in 2 Thessalonians :15, So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter. For sure Paul is telling us that the unwritten traditions are truth also.

Furthermore, according to the apostle Paul, in 1 Timothy 3:15, the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. The Church is the very foundation upon which the Truth rests.

Grace, you are trying to distort God's word that 'All Scripture' and make us believe that it should read 'Only Scripture' and it doesn't, It clearly doesn't.

Scripture, Paul, and the Bible clearly indicate that Sola Scriptura is not true.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Sola Scriptura is completely non Biblical. In itself it is completely a man made tradition and nothing more:

The phrase Sola Scriptura originated out of the 16th century Protestant Reformation. Sola Scriptura is one of the Five Solas. The Five Solas are statements that became the slogans of the Reformation and are now seen as core tenets of the faith.

Going back to Sola Scriptura for example, Jesus never said sola scriptura in any gospel. Paul, Peter, James and John never wrote sola scriptura. The Apostolic Church, since the first century never said sola scriptura. Sola scriptura was a man made tradition from the Protestant Reformation.

The funny thing about the doctrine of Sola Scripture is that it is an oxymoron. It claims 'Scripture Only' but the very idea of Sola Scriptura is a man made tradition and not Scriptural at all.

 

[soberxp]

I think I can also write a passage and name it sober. How can you judge that what I write must not be about the words of the Bible

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The Roman Catholic Church holds the erroneous and heretical position that their tradition and dictates of the pope are equal with the authority of Scripture. A blasphemous position.

"82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence." Source

Sola Scriptura holds the position that the Scriptures alone are the final authority of all matters of faith and practice.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

God's word alone is pure and uncontaminated. It is infallible. It is God's Word.

John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Have you ever heard of a group called the Hebrew Israelites?They love the old testament and deny CLEAR scripture spoken of In the New Testament scriptures and cling to the Old Testament which they Don't and Can't keep.

 

[soberxp]

Have you ever heard of a group called the Hebrew Israelites?They love the old testament and deny CLEAR scripture spoken of In the New Testament scriptures and cling to the Old Testament which they Don't and Can't keep.

Not all Israelis are so hard hearted,
History is so strikingly similar,
Hebrew Israelites Waiting for their Messiah，
Another group also Waiting for their Messiah，
Actually, Messiah already came for them.

Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Are you suggesting we can murder, or steal, or worship, Baal?

None of those you mention are greater than GOD and NOW faith Is what GOD sees when he decides If we will receive grace AND once a person has been justified by GOD In CHRIST GOD equips them and they WOULDN'T want to do those things.Why would I steal from my neighbor If I have been given fruit of the SPIRIT.

Galatians 5:17-23
King James Version

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
+++

Titus 2:11-12
King James Version

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

 

[seed_time_harvest]

We are not lawless. Can you break the 10 commandments as a Christian?

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The question though Is,how do we receive love which Is a fruit of the spirit?