Why do so many Churches teach a salvation doctrine opposed the the one Jesus taught?

[seed_time_harvest]

There are 3 laws:
Religious (ceremonial) Law
Civil Law
Moral Law

Which are you free from?

Grace.

 

[kaylagrl]

I agree.Have you ever heard a denomination called hebrew Israelites. They STRONGLY believe In keeping the law that GOD gave Moses even though they don’t keep the law and can’t keep It In a way GOD would accept,which would be perfection.

Romans 7:20-23
King James Version

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Yes, I have heard of them. They are quite radical, at least from the ones I have seen.

 

[Chester]

What Is a sola?

I was making a reference to the 5 "solas" of the Reformed church that came out of the Reformation:

The Five Solas are:

• Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”): The Bible alone is our highest authority.
• Sola Fide (“faith alone”): We are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.
• Sola Gratia (“grace alone”): We are saved by the grace of God alone.
• Solus Christus (“Christ alone”): Jesus Christ alone is our Lord, Savior, and King.
• Soli Deo Gloria (“to the glory of God alone”):...

 

[arthurfleminger]

I was making a reference to the 5 "solas" of the Reformed church that came out of the Reformation:

The Five Solas are:

• Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”): The Bible alone is our highest authority.
• Sola Fide (“faith alone”): We are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.
• Sola Gratia (“grace alone”): We are saved by the grace of God alone.
• Solus Christus (“Christ alone”): Jesus Christ alone is our Lord, Savior, and King.
• Soli Deo Gloria (“to the glory of God alone”):...

Those 5 solas sound good and I know they've been used as 'catch phrases for decades', but I do have questions as in regards to Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. When you speak of Sola Scriptura, you are referring to Scripture Alone as the source of God's word, the Bible, Old and New Testament.

So, if Sola Scriptura, Scripture alone, and Sola Fide, Faith alone, are true it would say that in the Bible. Could you please point out where the Bible, either Old or New Testament teaches Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide? I can't seem to find such references in the Bible. Where in the Bible does it state Scripture alone or Faith alone? If it's not in the Bible, then it's a man made tradition and not biblical. Thanks

 

[arthurfleminger]

Those 5 solas sound good and I know they've been used as 'catch phrases for decades', but I do have questions as in regards to Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. When you speak of Sola Scriptura, you are referring to Scripture Alone as the source of God's word, the Bible, Old and New Testament.

So, if Sola Scriptura, Scripture alone, and Sola Fide, Faith alone, are true it would say that in the Bible. Could you please point out where the Bible, either Old or New Testament teaches Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide? I can't seem to find such references in the Bible. Where in the Bible does it state Scripture alone or Faith alone? If it's not in the Bible, then it's a man made tradition and not biblical. Thanks

Also, where does it say in the Bible that we are saved by grace alone? I can't find that either. Thanks.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I was making a reference to the 5 "solas" of the Reformed church that came out of the Reformation:

The Five Solas are:

• Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”): The Bible alone is our highest authority.
• Sola Fide (“faith alone”): We are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.
• Sola Gratia (“grace alone”): We are saved by the grace of God alone.
• Solus Christus (“Christ alone”): Jesus Christ alone is our Lord, Savior, and King.
• Soli Deo Gloria (“to the glory of God alone”):...

Okay,
Thanks,are you catholic?

 

[arthurfleminger]

Okay,
Thanks,are you catholic
?

Not Catholic, just wondering where you're getting these sola's from. They sure aren't in the Bible.
You say Sola Fide, and the Bible does mention being saved through faith many times, but never by faith alone. In fact, the Bible says the opposite in James, 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Those last four words say, “not by faith only”: or “alone”. James goes on further to say faith without works is dead. So, where does the Bible say faith alone? Thanks

As for Sola Scriptura, the Bible disputes that also. It is never taught in the Bible. For sure, Scripture is a standard of God's truth but certainly not the only standard. In 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul says to "hold fast to the traditions we taught you, either written or by WORD OF MOUTH. And in 1 Timothy it states that it is the Church that is the standard for truth, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

In fact there was no Bible for 300 years after Christ ascended and Bibles were very few and far between until the printing press came along in the 1540's. Even then 90% of the population couldn't read. So how could the Bible be the only source of God's truth?

I'm just asking where you're finding these 5 solas in the Bible or are they just a man made tradition. If they are true, they must be explicitly stated somewhere in the Bible. You say, "Scripture Alone, but if not in the Bible, where did they come from? Thanks.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I was making a reference to the 5 "solas" of the Reformed church that came out of the Reformation:

The Five Solas are:

• Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”): The Bible alone is our highest authority.
• Sola Fide (“faith alone”): We are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.
• Sola Gratia (“grace alone”): We are saved by the grace of God alone.
• Solus Christus (“Christ alone”): Jesus Christ alone is our Lord, Savior, and King.
• Soli Deo Gloria (“to the glory of God alone”):...

When you say sola scripture ,what does that mean?Some people think we should be under the Old covenant scriptures And the New covenant scripture,so then sola scripture meaning scripture alone sounds like keeping the OT And NT since they are both the WORD of GOD! But we are not under the old covenant the administration of death which we can’t be true to scripture perfectly anyway the way that GOD would accept so then Old covenant scripture to me would not linger over the heads of those receiving GRACE and that grace by faith that JESUS has justified,those that believe In HIM.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Also, where does it say in the Bible that we are saved by grace alone? I can't find that either. Thanks.

You didn’t know this?
Trough faith on our side means to believe In JESUS so then Grace alone would be accurate.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Not Catholic, just wondering where you're getting these sola's from. They sure aren't in the Bible.
You say Sola Fide, and the Bible does mention being saved through faith many times, but never by faith alone. In fact, the Bible says the opposite in James, 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Those last four words say, “not by faith only”: or “alone”. James goes on further to say faith without works is dead. So, where does the Bible say faith alone? Thanks

As for Sola Scriptura, the Bible disputes that also. It is never taught in the Bible. For sure, Scripture is a standard of God's truth but certainly not the only standard. In 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul says to "hold fast to the traditions we taught you, either written or by WORD OF MOUTH. And in 1 Timothy it states that it is the Church that is the standard for truth, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

In fact there was no Bible for 300 years after Christ ascended and Bibles were very few and far between until the printing press came along in the 1540's. Even then 90% of the population couldn't read. So how could the Bible be the only source of God's truth?

I'm just asking where you're finding these 5 solas in the Bible or are they just a man made tradition. If they are true, they must be explicitly stated somewhere in the Bible. You say, "Scripture Alone, but if not in the Bible, where did they come from? Thanks.

I think you meant to respond to chester In post #123

 

[arthurfleminger]

I think you meant to respond to chester In post #123

I think you meant to respond to chester In post #123

Sorry and thanks.

 

[arthurfleminger]

I was making a reference to the 5 "solas" of the Reformed church that came out of the Reformation:

The Five Solas are:

• Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”): The Bible alone is our highest authority.
• Sola Fide (“faith alone”): We are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.
• Sola Gratia (“grace alone”): We are saved by the grace of God alone.
• Solus Christus (“Christ alone”): Jesus Christ alone is our Lord, Savior, and King.
• Soli Deo Gloria (“to the glory of God alone”):...

Just wondering where you're getting these sola's from. They sure aren't in the Bible.
You say Sola Fide, and the Bible does mention being saved through faith many times, but never by faith alone. In fact, the Bible says the opposite in James, 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Those last four words say, “not by faith only”: or “alone”. James goes on further to say faith without works is dead. So, where does the Bible say faith alone? Thanks

As for Sola Scriptura, the Bible disputes that also. It is never taught in the Bible. For sure, Scripture is a standard of God's truth but certainly not the only standard. In 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul says to "hold fast to the traditions we taught you, either written or by WORD OF MOUTH. And in 1 Timothy it states that it is the Church that is the standard for truth, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

In fact there was no Bible for 300 years after Christ ascended and Bibles were very few and far between until the printing press came along in the 1540's. Even then 90% of the population couldn't read. So how could the Bible be the only source of God's truth?

I'm just asking where you're finding these 5 solas in the Bible or are they just a man made tradition. If they are true, they must be explicitly stated somewhere in the Bible. You say, "Scripture Alone, but if not in the Bible, where did they come from? Thanks.

 

[BroTan]

I find many church doctrines are founded solely upon Paul's epistles, leaving the teachings of Jesus Christ as a mere footnote. One would think, they believe Paul is their savior, and Jesus the apostle of Paul. But worse yet, those who trust in these teachings are like blind men walking in the desert.

Paul is a great teacher...and one of my favorites, but teaching Paul without founding his teachings on what Christ taught his disciples, is like trying to teach Algebra to someone who doesn't know how to Add and Subtract. This is why the mainstream churches teach, the Christian is not under Gods Law, simply because Paul taught, "We are not under Law, we are under Grace." When it is this very Law which brings the believer their salvation.

That's true and God had Peter to clearly warn people about some of Paul’s writing. (2Peter:3:15-16) (v.15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Now let us take heed to this warning, people shouldn't ignore all the bible and just concentrate on a hand full of verses out of the writings of Paul. Because some of Paul’s writing is hard to be understood.

One of those clean examples of getting salvation by the mouth of Jesus, has become so water down, so confusing because people run to Paul writing after reading this one simple verse. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19). This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to.

But then they would run to Paul writing where he's talking about a different Law, the law animal sacrifice. Paul didn’t come preaching and teaching his own thing, but he abided in the doctrine of Christ. (Rom. 3:20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sights for by the law is the knowledge of sin. The deeds of the law is referring to the animal sacrificial laws, all those sacrifices can never remove sins, so they could never be justified. This is true because the blood of Jesus can only justify us. The animal sacrificial laws was added because people continue to sin, and the wages of sin bring for death. So instead of God killing people every time they sin, the Lord gave Moses a law to use, animals. So by the other law (Ten Commandments, statutes and Judgement) is the knowledge of sin. Why? Because in (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.)

Paul says in Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. You wouldn’t know what sin was if there was no law.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Just wondering where you're getting these sola's from. They sure aren't in the Bible.

Precious friend, Correct. To say "1 Only, 2 Only, 3 Only, 4 Only, 5 Only"
makes no sense, being bad grammar.

2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul says to "hold fast to the traditions we taught you, either written or by WORD OF MOUTH."

Again, correct, but proud religions carry this to the extreme, and many
heresies result. Most likely, diligent students of The Word Of Truth
realize that "all the traditions by the mouth of Paul" were Inspired
Of God to be later "Written in his letters"; thus Scripture Is Complete,
And The Only Authority for the believers' faith and practice. i.e.:

We simply believe "What God Says About It!":

1) God's Holy Word Is Settled In Heaven For Ever!:

"For Ever, O LORD, Thy Word Is Settled In Heaven."
(Psa 118:89)

2) Every Word Of God Is Pure And Preserved For Ever!:

"The Words Of The LORD Are Pure Words: as silver tried
in a furnace of earth, Purified seven times. Thou Shalt
Keep Them, O LORD, Thou Shalt Preserve Them from
this generation For Ever. " (Psa 12:6-7)

3) The Word Of God Is Magnified Above All His Holy Name!:

"I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise Thy Name
for Thy Lovingkindness and for Thy Truth: for Thou Hast
Magnified Thy Word Above All Thy Name. " (Psa 138:2)

4) We are to live By Every Word out of The Mouth Of God!:

"But He Answered and Said, It Is Written, Man shall not
live by bread alone, but By Every Word That Proceedeth
Out Of The Mouth Of God." (Mat 4:4; Luk 4:4; Deu 8:4)

5) We are not to think Above That Which Is Written!:

"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to
myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us

not to think above That Which Is Written,​

that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. " (1Co 4:6)

Thus, we should realize the Cause of all the contentions, strife,
biting and devouring of "one against another," Correct?
------------------------------------------
GRACE and Peace...

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified In
CHRIST And HIS Authoritative Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

When you say sola scripture ,what does that mean?Some people think we should be under the Old covenant scriptures And the New covenant scripture,so then sola scripture meaning scripture alone sounds like keeping the OT And NT since they are both the WORD of GOD! But we are not under the old covenant the administration of death which we can’t be true to scripture perfectly anyway the way that GOD would accept so then Old covenant scripture to me would not linger over the heads of those receiving GRACE and that grace by faith that JESUS has justified,those that believe In HIM.

The Roman Catholic Church holds the erroneous and heretical position that their tradition and dictates of the pope are equal with the authority of Scripture. A blasphemous position.

"82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence." Source

Sola Scriptura holds the position that the Scriptures alone are the final authority of all matters of faith and practice.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

God's word alone is pure and uncontaminated. It is infallible. It is God's Word.

John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

So you're saying we are under OT law?

No....we are not under the law of Moses.
Jesus gave the law to Moses.
Moses was faithful in his house.
Jesus over the whole house.

3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

The ten Commandments were in place before Israel was a nation.

 

[Iconoclast]

But not for the Christian... we don't live by the law anymore.

We are not lawless. Can you break the 10 commandments as a Christian?

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[kaylagrl]

We are not lawless. Can you break the 10 commandments as a Christian?

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Yes, I can, I cannot keep the law,no one can. That's why they had to kill animals for the blood to cover sin in the OT. Christ came to fulfill the law. His blood takes away sin, not just cover it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, I can, I cannot keep the law,no one can. That's why they had to kill animals for the blood to cover sin in the OT. Christ came to fulfill the law. His blood takes away sin, not just cover it.

Are you suggesting we can murder, or steal, or worship, Baal?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Riding on the coattails of another post... re: "rightly dividing"... by "GRACE_a" in Post #134 ^ (tho he and I have a few minor differences in understanding, in places, as well )...


...yes, and in order to [be] "correctly apportioning the word of truth" (as we are called to do, 2Tim2:15), one should explain the clear distinction between what is meant in Jesus' Olivet Discourse [and its parallel passage in Lk12] by His use of the word "WATCH [G1127]", to that of what we read in the epistle by means of the Holy Spirit via Paul's pen using the SAME Greek "WATCH [G1127]" word, at 1 Thessalonians 5:10 [v.6 also, for CONTEXT] -

[note the distinction between... Olivet Discourse (and parallel) here... using the "WATCH" word...]

[G1127 - grégoreó - "watch"]

Matthew 24:42 V-PMA-2P
GRK: γρηγορεῖτε οὖν ὅτι
NAS: Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know
KJV: Watch therefore: for
INT: Keep watch therefore for


Matthew 24:43 V-AIA-3S
GRK: κλέπτης ἔρχεται ἐγρηγόρησεν ἂν καὶ
NAS: was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed
KJV: he would have watched, and
INT: thief comes he would have watched anyhow and


Matthew 25:13 V-PMA-2P
GRK: Γρηγορεῖτε οὖν ὅτι
NAS: Be on the alert then,
KJV: Watch therefore, for
INT: Watch therefore for


Mark 13:34 V-PSA-3S
GRK: ἐνετείλατο ἵνα γρηγορῇ
NAS: the doorkeeper to stay on the alert.
KJV: the porter to watch.
INT: commanded that he should watch


Mark 13:35 V-PMA-2P
GRK: γρηγορεῖτε οὖν οὐκ
NAS: Therefore, be on the alert-- for you do not know
KJV: Watch ye therefore: for
INT: Watch therefore not


Mark 13:37 V-PMA-2P
GRK: πᾶσιν λέγω γρηγορεῖτε
NAS: to all, Be on the alert!'
KJV: I say unto all, Watch.
INT: to all I say Watch


[and in the Matthew (Olivet Discourse) passage's parallel]

Luke 12:37 V-PPA-AMP
GRK: κύριος εὑρήσει γρηγοροῦντας ἀμὴν λέγω
NAS: will find on the alert when he comes;
KJV: shall find watching: verily
INT: Lord will find watching Truly I say


Luke 12:39 V-AIA-3S
GRK: κλέπτης ἔρχεται ἐγρηγόρησεν ἂν καὶ
KJV: he would have watched, and
INT: thief is coming he would have watched anyhow and



... ^ being completely distinct from what is stated here (below), in verse 10 of 1 Thess 5 (see v.6 for CONTEXT) -



1 Thessalonians 5:6 V-PSA-1P
GRK: λοιποί ἀλλὰ γρηγορῶμεν καὶ νήφωμεν
NAS: [not sleep - G2518 - katheudōmen]as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
KJV: [not sleep - G2518 - katheudōmen] but let us watch and
INT: [not] rest [G2518 - katheudōmen] but we should watch and we should be sober

[ ^ where the Greek words for "watch" and "sleep" are the SAME Greek words and context as the verse 10 showing below...]


1 Thessalonians 5:10 V-PSA-1P
GRK: ἵνα εἴτε γρηγορῶμεν εἴτε καθεύδωμεν
NAS: that whether we are awake or [sleep]
KJV: that, whether we wake or sleep,
INT: [...Who died for us] that whether we might watch or we might sleep [we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him]

[note: here a different Greek "sleep" word (G2518 - katheudōmen / katheudó) from the other "sleep G2837" word (koimōmenōn / koimēthentas) used in CHPT 4, at 4:13, 4:14, 4:15 (not to mention used also in 1Cor15:6,18,20,51, etc) speaking of "death" (of the believer) in chpt 4; which is not meant here, in 5:6,10]




Why does Jesus say what He does, using this "WATCH [G1127]" word, but Paul says what he does [which is expressing something entirely distinct] using this SAME "WATCH [G1127]" word (expressing completely distinct ideas, between the two)? This is a matter (just one example) pertaining to "correctly apportioning the word of truth," as mentioned at the top of this post. = )