Pentecostalism's sketchy origins
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My real life experience is that the Charismatics in general do live holier lives. This is one of the main reasons I am more comfortable around them. I don't like fellowshipping with people who wink at sin or seem indifferent to compromising with the world. I question their salvation.
I think that it is their intense love for the Lord Jesus fueled by their baptism in the Holy Spirit that makes them hate sin.
Because they hate sin and love righteousness God anoints them with the oil of gladness above their fellows maybe.
Or maybe because most Charismatics do not believe in OSAS and this results in a much more serious fear of God when it comes to compromise with the world. They have a theology of overcoming, and fighting against all compromise until the end. They are much more apt to make a big deal about things that the indifferent churches wink at.
Maybe you missed it???
The preaching and teaching of the Apostle Paul was a Direct Result of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit upon him.
Today, people think skilled oratory gifting and intellectual academia is the 'all in all' of 'spirituality'.
the FATHER has never changed His Mind = "Not by might, nor by power but by My Spirit says the LORD"
I.... dunno how you come to this conclusion that charismatics live holier lives. We've been made holy by the blood of Christ, & yes we are to be holy because the Father is holy.
Maybe "holier" should be changed to something like "strict", "conservative", etc. because what you're saying sounds like a "holier than thou" attitude.
I'm not saying you are, but it can sure look that way.
All I am saying is that Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer and Benny Hinn are going to hell. And that all of them are manifesting fraudulent signs and wonders to deceive and draw away disciples to themselves in order to destroy them. In service of their master and father Satan.
That's what I'm saying my friend. What do you think about my thesis?
My Post was in reponse to your questions on your Post #1,269
"The only demonstration was after the preaching when Paul brought Eutychus back to life.
Why do you feel the need for there to be these kinds of demonstrations? Is it not enough to KNOW that the Spirit is there, in you and among you? Why do you feel the need for some kind of "demonstration" ?"
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, in and of Itself, upon a son of God is the Glory foretold/prophesied by Moses.
The Greatest Blessing of the FATHER after Promise #1 is Promise #2 and after Promise #2 comes Promise #3.
ALL THREE Promises are a Direct Result of the Gospel of God that began in Genesis.
@ hornetguy,
I can understand the confusion about Pentecostalism. There's a lot of fakers out there today, as well as many well-intentioned, but young Pentecostals who are just trying to fit in or find their way through the messiness of spiritual warfare. For years I was one of those people. It took the Holy Spirit to teach me about church traditions & how they made their way into the church.
I do believe in the gifts of the Spirit, not because I was told to, but because the Bible includes them in NT doctrine without an ending stated.
I'm one of those "if God said it, I believe it" kind of guys. And yes, God said things about the gifts in several epistles.
You seem like a no nonsense kind of guy, & I respect that.
I'm not going to try to persuade you about anything about the Baptism, the gifts, or anything else. You see, you need to do your own investigation into the scriptures, & not into the modern church, for much of the modern church is way too liberal.
I can't speak for my brethren here, but you must understand how many times Pentecostals have been attacked for what we believe, & that can put us on the offensive sometimes.
It's my sincere hope that you will "seek it out" & prove it for yourself. I certainly believe you deserve that.
I can understand the confusion about Pentecostalism. There's a lot of fakers out there today, as well as many well-intentioned, but young Pentecostals who are just trying to fit in or find their way through the messiness of spiritual warfare. For years I was one of those people. It took the Holy Spirit to teach me about church traditions & how they made their way into the church.
I do believe in the gifts of the Spirit, not because I was told to, but because the Bible includes them in NT doctrine without an ending stated.
I'm one of those "if God said it, I believe it" kind of guys. And yes, God said things about the gifts in several epistles.
You seem like a no nonsense kind of guy, & I respect that.
I'm not going to try to persuade you about anything about the Baptism, the gifts, or anything else. You see, you need to do your own investigation into the scriptures, & not into the modern church, for much of the modern church is way too liberal.
I can't speak for my brethren here, but you must understand how many times Pentecostals have been attacked for what we believe, & that can put us on the offensive sometimes.
It's my sincere hope that you will "seek it out" & prove it for yourself. I certainly believe you deserve that.
@ hornetguy,
I can understand the confusion about Pentecostalism. There's a lot of fakers out there today, as well as many well-intentioned, but young Pentecostals who are just trying to fit in or find their way through the messiness of spiritual warfare. For years I was one of those people. It took the Holy Spirit to teach me about church traditions & how they made their way into the church.
I do believe in the gifts of the Spirit, not because I was told to, but because the Bible includes them in NT doctrine without an ending stated.
I'm one of those "if God said it, I believe it" kind of guys. And yes, God said things about the gifts in several epistles.
You seem like a no nonsense kind of guy, & I respect that.
I'm not going to try to persuade you about anything about the Baptism, the gifts, or anything else. You see, you need to do your own investigation into the scriptures, & not into the modern church, for much of the modern church is way too liberal.
I can't speak for my brethren here, but you must understand how many times Pentecostals have been attacked for what we believe, & that can put us on the offensive sometimes.
It's my sincere hope that you will "seek it out" & prove it for yourself. I certainly believe you deserve that.
Thank you very kindly.... I don't have a problem with pentecostals until they try to teach "if you don't have tongues, you aren't really a believer... you haven't been baptized in the Spirit" ..... which is hogwash.
I went through a time in my life in my 20's when I was hanging out with pentecostals, and believed I was missing out... I didn't just think it, I believed it.... I had a circle of 7 or 8 of them around me, laying on hands and praying, and I was praying as well. I even tried the "just start making noises, and tongues will happen" thing.... nothing. This happened on two, maybe three occasions, and the end result was... I have never spoken in tongues. And I WANTED that gift...
It is my firm belief that not all people need, or are meant to receive that gift of the Spirit. And to have people tell me that I am somehow not as "spiritual" as they are is an affront and an insult.... and, frankly, completely un-scriptural.
So, bottom line.... I have already DONE my investigation into scriptures, on my own, away from "my church"... and I have come to my own decisions. As I have stated..... if I am meant to have the gift of tongues, I'm certain I will receive it. If not, then according to the Spirit, I am not missing out on anything that I need.
You really want to know what I think? Don't ever ask me that unless you really want to know, cause I will tell you.
Firstly, much of TV ministry is bad or going bad. Not just the pentecostals or charismatics, either. But these tend to stand out more because they resemble a spiritual 3-ringed circus.
There's a real reason for that, too. Go back thru the years, & you'll remember most denominations already made up their minds that these movements were not of God. They were pre-judged without checking them out.
Then came along the frauds, charlatans, & moneygrubbers that continued our downward spiral of reputation in the world.
With that comes well-meaning churches that want to be successful & professional like the TV church is, following their awful example of what godliness is. Before you know it, much of the US church tries to emulate them.
Why did they do that? Because Satan is using the televangelists to drag the true church into the hogpen of sin. It's part of the Falling Away.
Now, most churches want to become a megachurch, doing everything under the sun to achieve that goal.
So, yes I know much of what your'e saying is correct. But be careful. You don't want to find yourself on the devil's side of the argument, saying all of these is bad & fradulent. Satan wants christians to do his dirty work to judge & split the church.
Rmember, you asked me.
Lets step back and invoke Acts 17:11 shall we?
Is there a hierarchy (in terms of precedence/importance) of gifts noted? Yes.
1Co 12:7-11
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:28-31
And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? (NO!)
Do all have gifts of healings? (NO!) Do all speak with tongues? (NO!) Do all interpret? (NO!)
But earnestly desire the best/greater gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.
============================================================================================
Paul indicates that NOT ALL of the Corinthian congregation had the gift of tongues. This unbiblical cruel imposition that all of those who do NOT speak in tongues or do NO miracles etc are NOT indwelt with the Spirit is utter rubbish. And again....PRIORITY of gifts is stated in no uncertain terms. So what shall those who have been bequeathed with the SUPERIOR gifts say to those with INFERIOR gifts? Are we to insult and denigrate them (as so many professed Pentecostals do)? I say NAY perish the thought!
1Co 14:5
I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
Is there a hierarchy (in terms of precedence/importance) of gifts noted? Yes.
1Co 12:7-11
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:28-31
And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? (NO!)
Do all have gifts of healings? (NO!) Do all speak with tongues? (NO!) Do all interpret? (NO!)
But earnestly desire the best/greater gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.
============================================================================================
Paul indicates that NOT ALL of the Corinthian congregation had the gift of tongues. This unbiblical cruel imposition that all of those who do NOT speak in tongues or do NO miracles etc are NOT indwelt with the Spirit is utter rubbish. And again....PRIORITY of gifts is stated in no uncertain terms. So what shall those who have been bequeathed with the SUPERIOR gifts say to those with INFERIOR gifts? Are we to insult and denigrate them (as so many professed Pentecostals do)? I say NAY perish the thought!
1Co 14:5
I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
Wow. You must have been reading my mind as I just posted a discourse on this very matter. You must have the gift of telepathy ROFL. Or maybe I do....
? Maybe both of us?https://christianchat.com/threads/pentecostalisms-sketchy-origins.199418/post-4827945
I.... dunno how you come to this conclusion that charismatics live holier lives. We've been made holy by the blood of Christ, & yes we are to be holy because the Father is holy.
Maybe "holier" should be changed to something like "strict", "conservative", etc. because what you're saying sounds like a "holier than thou" attitude.
I'm not saying you are, but it can sure look that way.
I use the word holy in the most common use of the word among charismatics. The idea of separation from the world and devotion to the cause of Christ. In general there will be more of that in the Charismatic church than in the non charismatic church.
I see more of that in the Charismatic churches on average. I heard Billy Graham say that he thinks about 80% of the congregations in local churches in his denomination are not even born again. Only about 20% of the people attending on any given Sunday are even saved. I find that probably is fairly accurate about most of the non charismatic churches on average. We are painting with a broad brush in this thread, might as well keep it going.
I find that the opposite is true among Charismatics. About 20% in the congregation on any given Sunday morning are not saved (probably even less) and about 80% are serious, 100% sold out to Jesus living with no compromise that they know about. Willing to repent at any hint of sin in their lives.
This could be because they believe the scriptures teach that compromisers and antinomians will go to hell, and it could also be because someone who is a compromiser with sin is not going to feel comfortable attending a Charismatic church and is more likely to go HIDE in the non charismatic churches where everyone seems to not be living to such a high standard.
And that is my experience. We all have our opinions. We can go back and forth on them all day but when it comes to what the bible says about speaking in tongues we have to address the scriptures. If someone is suggesting that the fruit of Charismatics is ungodliness they are lying to themselves and against observable truth. Using some celebrity pastor who fell or some extreme example of a mega church on TV is no way to judge the millions of Charismatics in the world or what local congregations are like.
I cannot agree wit your statement about not for everybody. Acts 2 states it for all God's people, even sons & daughters, servants & handmaidens. I think in your "younger days" you spiritually weren't ready. It's not about age, it's more about commitment. This isn't meant to be insulting in any way, for I knew some moms & dads in church that didn't get it right away either.
In my mind, I would think, "who wouldn't want to have a gift from God that would change their whole ministry for the better? "
Esp. in these last days when so many are giving up or falling away into false doctrine.
To be honest with you, many Pentecostal christians don't have the Baptism & aren't seeking it. They just don't want it. I don't think there's a "superiorty thing", except the arrogant or prideful. If anything, I'm embarrassed that people in my own movement aren't interested in the Spirit like they used to be.
You are 70% correct and 100% incorrect.
Never look at the GIFTS of the HOLY SPIRIT as a hierarchy as this is adding to God's words and opens the door wide for pride and the downfall.
ALWAYS remember this:
#1 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
#2 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
#3 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
#4 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
AND now for the TOP 3 IMPORTANT VERSES:
#5 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually
as He wills.
#6 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
#7 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
I seriously doubt a backslider would be interested in any church........why would they?