Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

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Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

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John146 said:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Absent from the body….having no body, but yet present with the Lord…the soul, who we actually are. Right now I am clothed with a corrupt body. One day, my body will be changed to the glory of the Lord’s resurrected body, an immortal body, which will clothe my eternal soul.

Philippians 1
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Paul’s soul would depart from the flesh and be with Christ. That’s better for him than remaining in the flesh.
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When I leave work I desire to be absent from the employee parking lot and present in my hot tub...does that mean I teleport from the one place to the other OR DO I STILL HAVE TO DRIVE HOME?

Likewise, Paul's desire to be absent from the body and present with the Lord does not eliminate the fact that he knew that he AS WELL AS THE REST OF HUMANITY would have to sleep "naked" and "unclothed" in the grave without a body awaiting the resurrection.
 
T

TheLearner

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Phoneman-777 said:
​
If Jesus is the "Wisdom of God", to say that there was a time that Jesus didn't exist is to say there was a time when God couldn't think.​
...all things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made that was made".​
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​
​
JW's often overlook the more correct rendering of the text. A Question I often ask them, Was there a time when God lacked Wisdom? Which is an atribute of God? When in public they just walk away. In private, they say, "we have to reasearch that" and don't come back. Also, the poor translation is from the Greek of the LXX.​
​
Proverbs 8:22
English Standard Version
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
Christian Standard Bible
“The LORD acquired me at the beginning of his creation, before his works of long ago.
Contemporary English Version
From the beginning, I was with the LORD. I was there before he began
Douay-Rheims Bible
The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works.
 
T

TheLearner

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"
If there is anything the Bible teaches us about God, it is that He is all-wise.

“With Him are wisdom and might; To Him belong counsel and understanding” (Job 12:13).

Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable (Isaiah 40:28).

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! (Romans 11:33; see also Job 9:1-4; 36:5; Isaiah 31:1-2).

God is all-wise, infinitely wise:

“Behold, God is mighty but does not despise [any;] [He is] mighty in strength of understanding” (Job 36:5).

Great is our Lord, and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite (Psalms 147:5).

God’s wisdom is vastly superior to human wisdom:

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD. 9 “For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9; see also Job 28:12-28; Jeremiah 51:15-17).

God alone is wise:

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, [leading] to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen (Romans 16:25-27; see also 1 Timothy 1:17; Jude 1:25).

It is God who is the source of wisdom:

For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth [come] knowledge and understanding (Proverbs 2:6).

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all men generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him (James 1:5).

"
https://garydavenport.org/2016/04/21/gods-attributes-the-wisdom-of-god/
 
J

John146

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Phoneman-777 said:
When I leave work I desire to be absent from the employee parking lot and present in my hot tub...does that mean I teleport from the one place to the other OR DO I STILL HAVE TO DRIVE HOME?

Likewise, Paul's desire to be absent from the body and present with the Lord does not eliminate the fact that he knew that he AS WELL AS THE REST OF HUMANITY would have to sleep "naked" and "unclothed" in the grave without a body awaiting the resurrection.
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Paul is bringing up two scenarios, or two choices for his life.

1. To continue living in his body, the flesh, in order to continue his ministry to the Philippians.
2. To leave his body, his flesh, and to be with Christ (without his body). This would happen immediately, not some time in the future or he wouldn't bring up the dilemma.
 
F

FreeGrace2

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Phoneman-777 said:
When I leave work I desire to be absent from the employee parking lot and present in my hot tub...does that mean I teleport from the one place to the other OR DO I STILL HAVE TO DRIVE HOME?
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Not a fair comparison, obviously. We don't know the speed of souls. You are trying to compare "apples and oranges".

Likewise, Paul's desire to be absent from the body and present with the Lord does not eliminate the fact that he knew that he AS WELL AS THE REST OF HUMANITY would have to sleep "naked" and "unclothed" in the grave without a body awaiting the resurrection.
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A proper understanding of figures of speech solve any issues.

Souls don't sleep. The Bible is full of evidence that the souls of dead believers are with the Lord in heaven and the souls of dead unbelievers are in Hades, awaiting the GWT judgment.
 
J

JAPOV

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I'm just glad there's nothing about this argument that's going to stop us from getting there... :cool:
 
L

LactoseIntolerant

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Phoneman-777 said:
The answer to "Who is like God?" is found only in one Person: the pre-incarnate Jesus, Who formerly appeared to His creation as an Angel and took the name "Michael", and in these last days has appeared to His creation as the Son of Man and has taken the name "Jesus".
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I hear what you are saying. I was convinced for a period with that argument courtesy of the watchtower folks. But this knowledge was attained by mysterious means. This is totally contradicted by the bible. Everything should be plainly spoken devoid of any conjectures.

I was going to mention about philo judaeus and how he was influential of the early church. One of his spiels was the "hellenistic-judaistic" logos (Word) was an archangel and the angel of the Lord was God in disguise . But, still digesting.

Instead, how the answer is not the same . Consider, a thought experiment.
I am at a party alone in the corner (as usual). A fellow comes to me and extends his hand and says "Are you like God?"
I would probably scrunch up my face and ask "Beg your pardon?".
He replies "What an odd name "beg your pardon?""

Another fellow comes and extends his hand and "God is with us".
I am put at ease and I respond "You betcha, the name is Lactose"
He responds "Please to meet you"
I ask him "So what is your name?"
Reply "Huh?"

Your argument is valid in a "Jeopardy" game setting only.
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

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JAPOV said:
Hmmm.... I'm not so sure the "souls" of believers ever sleep... Their bodies, yes... but not their souls. Remember, there are 2 deaths. Believers only suffer 1. And the raptured endtime believers won't suffer at all :)
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Good point. Whenever the Bible mentions the soul dying, Christians ALWAYS associate this death to be "spiritual death" because "the soul is immortal and can't die, therefore the death of a soul isn't literal but spiritual when the soul will be cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity". Does this interpretation stand the test of Biblical scrutiny?

When the Bible speaks of the "spiritual death" of the soul, it always puts it in the PRESENT TENSE:
​
"She that liveth in pleasure IS DEAD while she liveth." 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV​

Therefore, when the Bible speaks of the FUTURE TENSE death of the soul, what can be the only thing that is referred to? It CAN'T be referring to "spiritual death" - it can only be referring to the literal death of the soul.
:)
 
J

JAPOV

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Phoneman-777 said:
Good point. Whenever the Bible mentions the soul dying, Christians ALWAYS associate this death to be "spiritual death" because "the soul is immortal and can't die, therefore the death of a soul isn't literal but spiritual when the soul will be cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity". Does this interpretation stand the test of Biblical scrutiny?

When the Bible speaks of the "spiritual death" of the soul, it always puts it in the PRESENT TENSE:
​
"She that liveth in pleasure IS DEAD while she liveth." 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV​

Therefore, when the Bible speaks of the FUTURE TENSE death of the soul, what can be the only thing that is referred to? It CAN'T be referring to "spiritual death" - it can only be referring to the literal death of the soul.
:)
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Don't think about it too hard Bro... Let the dead bury the dead and concern yourself more with the living :cool:
 
F

FreeGrace2

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Phoneman-777 said:
Good point. Whenever the Bible mentions the soul dying, Christians ALWAYS associate this death to be "spiritual death" because "the soul is immortal and can't die, therefore the death of a soul isn't literal but spiritual when the soul will be cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity". Does this interpretation stand the test of Biblical scrutiny?

When the Bible speaks of the "spiritual death" of the soul, it always puts it in the PRESENT TENSE:
​
"She that liveth in pleasure IS DEAD while she liveth." 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV​
Click to expand...
​
Look at the context for this verse. This time the word "dead" is a figure of speech for being out of fellowship with the Lord, through​
carnal living. Paul was describing a believer. They cannot die spiritually. And since all men are born spiritually dead, they also can't die AGAIN spiritually.​

Therefore, when the Bible speaks of the FUTURE TENSE death of the soul, what can be the only thing that is referred to? It CAN'T be referring to "spiritual death" - it can only be referring to the literal death of the soul.
:)
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One, the future tense simply says every person WILL die someday. Heb 9:27 "it is appointed once for man to die, and then the judgment"

Two, since there will be a physical resurrection of all unbelievers, in order to attend the GWT, the lake of fire is also called the second death because after the judgment, the believer in his/her resurrected physical body, minus glorification, will be cast into the lake of fire, and the body will die AGAIN. That's two times.
 
Mem

Mem

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FreeGrace2 said:
Not a fair comparison, obviously. We don't know the speed of souls. You are trying to compare "apples and oranges".


A proper understanding of figures of speech solve any issues.

Souls don't sleep. The Bible is full of evidence that the souls of dead believers are with the Lord in heaven and the souls of dead unbelievers are in Hades, awaiting the GWT judgment.
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Why should applications of figures of speech and literal meaning only suit your understanding?

FreeGrace2 said:
​
Look at the context for this verse. This time the word "dead" is a figure of speech for being out of fellowship with the Lord, through​
carnal living. Paul was describing a believer. They cannot die spiritually. And since all men are born spiritually dead, they also can't die AGAIN spiritually.​


One, the future tense simply says every person WILL die someday. Heb 9:27 "it is appointed once for man to die, and then the judgment"

Two, since there will be a physical resurrection of all unbelievers, in order to attend the GWT, the lake of fire is also called the second death because after the judgment, the believer in his/her resurrected physical body, minus glorification, will be cast into the lake of fire, and the body will die AGAIN. That's two times.
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So, if a soul is spiritually dead, and is never reborn, then those souls only have the body to be cast into the lake of fire, and then are no longer living souls but dead souls and from that time to forever cease to be.
 
F

FreeGrace2

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Mem said:
Why should applications of figures of speech and literal meaning only suit your understanding?
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It seems it is perfectly ok for anyone to take figures of speech any way they want?? That's not how it works. As far as literal meaning, that's clear enough. A literal meaning is exactly what it says.

Taking your "definition", then a figure of speech can mean anything. iow, doesn't matter what is written. One can take it however they want. Is that your idea?

So, if a soul is spiritually dead, and is never reborn, then those souls only have the body to be cast into the lake of fire, and then are no longer living souls but dead souls and from that time to forever cease to be.
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No, that isn't at all my view. Spiritual death is separation from God, the way everyone is born. We start out spiritually dead, but physically alive. And it isn't the soul that is born dead. The soul is the conscience, the intellect, personality of the person. It is very much alive. Back in Genesis 3, "on that day" when Adam ate the forbidden fruit, his human spirit died, not his soul. He was very much still conscious and able to function and communicate. But without a human spirit, he was unable to initiate communication with God, which is why the Lord sought him out.

In John 4, Jesus told the Samaritan woman that one must worship God in "spirit and in truth". He was referring to a reborn human spirit, or regeneration.

When an unbeliever dies, it is the body that dies. The soul goes to Hades, to await the physical resurrection of the body, to appear before the GWT judgment. When cast into the lake of fire, it is the body that will die AGAIN, which is why the LoF is also called the "second death" twice in Revelation. Then the soul "will be tormented day and night, forever and ever".
 
Mem

Mem

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FreeGrace2 said:
t seems it is perfectly ok for anyone to take figures of speech any way they want?? That's not how it works. As far as literal meaning, that's clear enough. A literal meaning is exactly what it says.

Taking your "definition", then a figure of speech can mean anything. iow, doesn't matter what is written. One can take it however they want. Is that your idea?
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You've taken it according to the constraints of tradition, which isn't necessarily always a bad thing, of course, but it isn't always the correct approach either. My objection is to any claim that the determination of what should be taken when and where is 'clear' on the surface, yet when Jesus speaks plainly that Lazarus (the soul) is asleep you must assumed he is speaking about his body. Why? Is it because He cannot possibly speaking of his spirit? How is it that the soul can be separated from the body but the spirit cannot be separated from the soul? Ecc 3:21 asks who can tell if the spirit of man rises upward...' but people substitute soul there. Also cited as doctrinal prooftext is Paul's claim, 'absent from the body, present with the Lord,' and it is assumed the soul is being spoken of as interchangeable with the spirit, but even that has to be presumed whether the state of 'present with the Lord' is speaking of the soul. Yet, when Jesus died He said, "into Your Hands I commend my Spirit." And, the souls under the alter 'crying out', "how long?'" must also be presumed to be literal in lieu of any possibility it is figurative language showing the soul as being, in fact, the emotions of a particular people.
 
J

JAPOV

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I believe spirit and soul are interchangeable... since those who deny God are dead already.
 
T

TheLearner

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Phoneman-777 said:
Good point. Whenever the Bible mentions the soul dying, Christians ALWAYS associate this death to be "spiritual death" because "the soul is immortal and can't die, therefore the death of a soul isn't literal but spiritual when the soul will be cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity". Does this interpretation stand the test of Biblical scrutiny?

When the Bible speaks of the "spiritual death" of the soul, it always puts it in the PRESENT TENSE:
​
"She that liveth in pleasure IS DEAD while she liveth." 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV​

Therefore, when the Bible speaks of the FUTURE TENSE death of the soul, what can be the only thing that is referred to? It CAN'T be referring to "spiritual death" - it can only be referring to the literal death of the soul.
:)
Click to expand...
In historical theology, who taught the soul is immortal friend, brother? I am tired, memory shot.
 
T

TheLearner

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FreeGrace2 said:
​
Look at the context for this verse. This time the word "dead" is a figure of speech for being out of fellowship with the Lord, through​
carnal living. Paul was describing a believer. They cannot die spiritually. And since all men are born spiritually dead, they also can't die AGAIN spiritually.​


One, the future tense simply says every person WILL die someday. Heb 9:27 "it is appointed once for man to die, and then the judgment"

Two, since there will be a physical resurrection of all unbelievers, in order to attend the GWT, the lake of fire is also called the second death because after the judgment, the believer in his/her resurrected physical body, minus glorification, will be cast into the lake of fire, and the body will die AGAIN. That's two times.
Click to expand...
waht verse brother freind?
 
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