Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

[Aaron56]

FYI Jesus even had names for Churches in the Book of Revelation.

Yes, thanks for pointing that out.

They were names of locations. If your church is named after the location it is in then it is Biblical.

 

[CS1]

Yes, thanks for pointing that out.

They were names of locations. If your church is named after the location it is in then it is Biblical.

God know full well those in the church no matter what name they have

 

[Aaron56]

God know full well those in the church no matter what name they have

That's a non sequitur.

How much are we permitted to divide the Body of Christ?

 

[Amanuensis]

That's a non sequitur.

How much are we permitted to divide the Body of Christ?

Don't you think it is an inaccurate statement to say that different churches divide the body of Christ? Most Baptists and Assembly of God, Methodists, Reformers, and Presbyterians will agree that we are all one body in Christ and all agree on the most important aspects of salvation and consider one another brothers and sisters in Christ.

Many of them still join together for evangelistic events and let the people who get saved decide which church they want to attend on their own.

 

[CS1]

That's a non sequitur.

How much are we permitted to divide the Body of Christ?

there would be none if everyone just agreed with you

 

[Aaron56]

Don't you think it is an inaccurate statement to say that different churches divide the body of Christ? Most Baptists and Assembly of God, Methodists, Reformers, and Presbyterians will agree that we are all one body in Christ and all agree on the most important aspects of salvation and consider one another brothers and sisters in Christ.

Many of them still join together for evangelistic events and let the people who get saved decide which church they want to attend on their own.

Not at all.

Instead, we should ask: if divisions of location are the only Biblically permitted form of division then why do we tolerate these other forms?

We should begin with the standard of the scripture and compare from there, not make concessions for our differences. If we find that our differences do no violence to the scriptures then we are free to permit them. But, if they are contrary, we should examine them closely with skepticism.

 

[hornetguy]

Actually if you go to the King James Bible you will find that "latter" AND "rain"
occurs 27 times in 9 verses in the KJV, including 7 exact phrases.

However, I am not posting this to support Pentecostalism. Just to clarify what you stated. At the same time, regardless of the differences that others have with Pentecostalism, the fact remains that Pentecostals are brothers and sisters in Christ. Albeit misled.

As we all probably are, in one way or another.
If you look at the New Testament, many of the books were written to churches that were missing the mark in one way or another, or in several ways..... still, Paul called them "brothers". We have a lot of freedom in Christ... in my understanding, there are very few "absolutes". Most everything else is left up to the maturity/understanding of the Spirit led individual. Where we usually get into trouble and create factions is when we try to impose OUR understanding and conscience on others. "I believe this way, so YOU must, also"

 

[Aaron56]

As we all probably are, in one way or another.
If you look at the New Testament, many of the books were written to churches that were missing the mark in one way or another, or in several ways..... still, Paul called them "brothers". We have a lot of freedom in Christ... in my understanding, there are very few "absolutes". Most everything else is left up to the maturity/understanding of the Spirit led individual. Where we usually get into trouble and create factions is when we try to impose OUR understanding and conscience on others. "I believe this way, so YOU must, also"

Paul would write to the Corinthians: "Therefore I urge you, imitate me. For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church."

And also: "Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

There are many more examples.

It sounds like Paul was saying "I believe this way, so you must also". Also, if Paul is to be trusted, we do not have freedom in Christ to divide.

 

[hornetguy]

The truth is that when I got baptized with the Holy Spirit and first spoke in tongues I had never heard of Parham, Asuza, the Pentecostals, or Charismatics.

I had no church influence or knew any Christians. Had never read anything or had any discussion about anything related to this. I was saved in jail and had never heard the Gospel before then. I read my bible all day every day while in prison with no other christians around to talk to about these things. I studied the book of Acts from a bible that had no study notes and as I read the book of Acts I had faith that I could receive the same experience.

A volunteer chaplain came to visit our tank and I told him how I had been born again after getting arrested and how God had changed my life. He asked me "if I had received the Holy Ghost since I believed." I knew he was quoting Acts and I said, "I just read that and I am asking the Lord for that."

He said "Can I lay hands on you and pray for it right now?" And I said "yes, please do."

And then I got on my knees (he did not ask me too, it just seemed like the right thing to do) I was imagining being one of those disciples in Ephesus in Acts I suppose. And as soon as he prayed over me I started speaking in tongues.

I also became 10 x the soul winner I was before, and very effective at leading people to Christ. I could give many stories of the power to witness that came into my life at that time.

So my point is that I am living proof that I was not influenced by Parham, or anyone in the modern Pentecostal movement. My testimony is too simple to find fault with it. If your proposition that people have been caught up in a movement that has sketchy origins is true, it does not apply to me since as I have explained I never knew about any of these things and yet by reading the bible and having faith I experienced the same thing they did.

Another thing that came from my experience that I can vouch for. I never considered the question or the answer "what is the initial evidence that someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit?" I never asked that question. Therefore, that part of the modern Pentecostal movement is something I read about later. Not something I needed to ask to receive the gift. It is just not something that I think that much about. Like Reformers philosophizing about free will or not free will. I just don't care. I never was concerned about how God knows something is going to happen, It is beyond my scope of responsibility and I don't get into it with people.

I didn't need to search out the question "what is the evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit" and so that is not why I asked for it. I asked for it because I read it and believed. The scriptures themselves produced that expectation in me.

Great testimony, brother.
I do not have tongues as a gift, but your story is inspirational... prayers answered.

 

[CS1]

Not at all.

Instead, we should ask: if divisions of location are the only Biblically permitted form of division then why do we tolerate these other forms?

We should begin with the standard of the scripture and compare from there, not make concessions for our differences. If we find that our differences do no violence to the scriptures then we are free to permit them. But, if they are contrary, we should examine them closely with skepticism.

we all should begin with a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ through the word of God in the Holy Spirit.

 

[hornetguy]

Paul would write to the Corinthians: "Therefore I urge you, imitate me. For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church."

And also: "Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

There are many more examples.

It sounds like Paul was saying "I believe this way, so you must also". Also, if Paul is to be trusted, we do not have freedom in Christ to divide.

And nobody is saying to "divide"... at least I am not. I am saying that each believer has to walk his own walk with God, as the Spirit guides him and gives him understanding. You should not force a weaker (or stronger) believer to believe the exact same way that you do. Scripture backs this up....

 

[hornetguy]

I should have added that, of course, the end goal is to have all believers being as Christ-like as possible.... we are all simply at different stages in achieving that goal.

 

[Aaron56]

And nobody is saying to "divide"... at least I am not. I am saying that each believer has to walk his own walk with God, as the Spirit guides him and gives him understanding. You should not force a weaker (or stronger) believer to believe the exact same way that you do. Scripture backs this up....

Clarifying question: So, all believers are left to their own interpretations of scripture? If that is the case, that's a recipe for lawlessness where each one does what they think is right in their own eyes, or perhaps thousands of denominations (But, perhaps you weren't saying that).

Regarding "You should not force a weaker (or stronger) believer to believe the exact same way that you do". I'm not sure where "forcing others" came into the discussion. However, Paul clearly said that the saints were to imitate him as he imitates Christ and that he desired that all would be of the same mind about everything. If I follow the thread, Paul was clearly saying that all should think like him.

And just to be clear, we are not talking about the unique perspective and experiences of the soul. Paul was talking about life in the Body of Christ.

 

[PaulChristensen]

The main instigators of the abomination were Kenneth Copeland and Rodney Howard-Browne. You can find videos of the first meetings on youtube.

Those two certainly don't represent the hard core of the Pentecostal movement in the same way that the Kardasians don't represent ordinary American familes.

 

[PaulChristensen]

That is a Very Good attitude to have.
Can you please specify what subject has not been clearly written in the New Testament???

What! Are you expecting me to do your Bible study research for you? You already have your preconceived answers concerning the Pentecostal movement, so I wouldn't waste my time and effort giving you material that you would shoot down anyway.

 

[CS1]

Clarifying question: So, all believers are left to their own interpretations of scripture? If that is the case, that's a recipe for lawlessness where each one does what they think is right in their own eyes, or perhaps thousands of denominations (But, perhaps you weren't saying that).

Regarding "You should not force a weaker (or stronger) believer to believe the exact same way that you do". I'm not sure where "forcing others" came into the discussion. However, Paul clearly said that the saints were to imitate him as he imitates Christ and that he desired that all would be of the same mind about everything. If I follow the thread, Paul was clearly saying that all should think like him.

And just to be clear, we are not talking about the unique perspective and experiences of the soul. Paul was talking about life in the Body of Christ.

not at all. Jesus Christ is the foundation on which all scripture must be built. All scripture has ONE interpretation as God intended it to be, however, all scripture can have more than one application.

The foundational truth of God's word all stands today. Orthodox Christianity must hold to the Word of God concerning Christ to which if any were not true Our faith would be in vain.

1. the One true God
2. The Deity of Christ
3. the Holy Spirit
4. The authoritative word of God
5. the creation of man
6. the fall of man
7. Gods salvation
8. the virgin birth
9. literal the death burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ
10. return of Christ.

 

[PaulChristensen]

This is where you're mistaken. Parham was already familiar with tongues. He witnessed it at Frank Sandford's Shiloah community in Maine. He wanted it for his group, that's why he planted the suggestion into the heads of his students and then tried to make it look like it was all spontaneous. Please.

It seems that you are pretty well prejudiced against the Pentecostal movement, flavouring your interpretation of the history. The fact is that "Pentecostal" describes many different Christian groups right around the world who believe in the continuation of the spiritual gifts, including the gift of tongues. Prominent figures such as Kenny Copeland, Benny Hinn, Bill Johnson, represent just particular factions of Pentecostalism which are exaggerated forms of it. The hard core of those calling themselves Pentecostal are spread across the world in small churches and groups, either as stand alone fellowships or part of traditional denominations, the vast majority you've never heard of. You will never see any of these groups featured on Youtube videos.

 

[peldom10]

I have heard this accusation from those who claim to be Reformist. They say that we are claiming elitist status among Christians. That we are claiming to be "better Christians" for having this gift. They say that is how we are "coming across" anyway.

I have examined myself and the accusation and have had discussions with those who say this to find out what exactly they are saying and I would have to agree that we do claim to be "more effective witnesses, soul winners, and preachers" on average. Not "better" or "more saved" but yes, more effective in ministry.

This is why. If I were to tell you that there were two pastors, one prayed often that God would completely have his way in their lives and that they would hear from the Spirit what they were to preach, and that they would be a more effective soul winner, and be lead by the Spirit, etc..." and this pastor spent quality time praying everyday. And then there was another pastor who never prayed. Went weeks without praying except for public prayers because he was expected to.

And then I ask you do you believe that the praying pastor would have a more effective ministry? I think that 99% of honest Christians would agree that the praying pastor would be more effective in his ministry. Why? Because we believe in the supernatural help that comes from God when we pray in faith.

So we believe that if someone askes for the out pouring of the Holy Spirit to receive power to be a witness and the gift of tongues to pray mysteries directly to God and for help to pray for things they don't even know to pray for, and they receive this gift and pray this way then we do believe we are more effective ministers as a result. And it is a fact that the Pentecostal movement is the largest missionary movement in the world seeing more churches planted and more souls saved than any other evangelical organization and so there is proof that we are more effective as a result of this gift which we claim.

We don't think we are better, we think we are more effective... And that was God's plan. That is why he gave the gift. To receive power to be a witness. We have no right to accuse those who believe what God said and receive this gift and become more effective than those who do not as being elitists. They are not elitists, they are are simply believers who step into the promises of God and are more equipped for ministry than those who don't.

Do I think that there is something lacking in someone's faith who does not claim the gift of speaking in tongues? Not on a salvific level. I don't think it matters about their eternal salvati Do I think that their faith can be increased by praying in tongues in the Holy Spirit? Ye I think thone on in Christ. of the purposes of the gift.
at is s.
Jude 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Are you advocating righteous and super righteous...or faith and super faith?
In any case show me scriptures which validate a difference of any aspect when speaking in tongues are present?

 

[DavidTree]

What! Are you expecting me to do your Bible study research for you? You already have your preconceived answers concerning the Pentecostal movement, so I wouldn't waste my time and effort giving you material that you would shoot down anyway.

i am only interested in Truth.
What preconceived answers??? Scripture holds the answers we are to know from the Lord.

Throw out some scripture and let's see where it leads.
i will be the first to agree wherever i am astray concerning His word.

 

[CS1]

Are you advocating righteous and super righteous...or faith and super faith?
In any case show me scriptures which validate a difference of any aspect when speaking in tongues are present?