The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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I am new here what do you mean the fact is no one Jesus Christ died to save, can ever die in unbelief, that would defeat the main purposes of His death. I thought Jesus died for everyone. I just finished studding in Matthew where Jesus sent out the 12 and they were to preach the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand. If they went some place and the people were not worthy they were to knock the dust of them off there feet and move on. Jesus died for those people that did not receive the word of the 12. Are you saying that they are still going to heaven. Please explain.
Again I am new I have not read all 50+ pages of posts and I have just recently given my life wholly over to God. I am not sure that I have the right to question this but I thank I do. Are you truly saying that every person in the world has salvation because Jesus died on the cross? From what I have read Jesus died so that we could if we wanted have salvation. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him "Verily, verily, I say unto you Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath no believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Believeth means entrust in the Strong's; Webester To trust; change or invest. We do have to do something We have to entrust in Jesus, we have to change the direction of our lives from serving the world, or jobs, Satan . . . We have to invest we have to give something and that is our lives we have to make Jesus King of our lives we have to make him #1. If I have misread something, if I have misunderstood I am sorry PLEASE let me know. I ask that you give me bible verses to backup what you say not your own thoughts
What's to understand? He quoted a scripture, gave his thoughts and I gave mine.
No, I am absolutely not saying that. Jesus died for everyone so that "whosoever" believes will be saved. If there were any persons that he did not die for, then they couldn't be saved EVEN if they believed.
All this is biblically correct.
The ONLY thing we can do is to believe. That was Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. Acts 16:31
This means we are trusting our very souls to Jesus to save us, which shows that our faith is in His work on the cross.
Unfortunately, this is what Lordship salvation teaches and is TOTALLY UNBIBLICAL. It is nothing more than changing your lifestyle.
Anyone who thinks they "have to do something, in the sense of work, effort, change of lifestyle, etc" are rejecting the idea of total reliance on the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
John 3:15-18
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Not sure what you mean by this? Physical Death in the Garden of Eden was God putting Man under a curse. The future was unresolved until Christ's atoning death enabled resurrection from the dead for those who choose the life of Christ over their own autonomous existence.
I'm sure Man's eternal existence was determined from Creation. And this was not undone by the curse of Sin.
What had to be resolved was the lifting of the curse of God for those willing to take advantage of Christ's offer of spiritual life and resurrection from the dead. In other words, I think all mankind live forever. But only those who choose Christ will be resurrected into eternally blessed bodies. I don't know what happens to spirits of men who are banished forever into Outer Darkness?
Please stop trying to contradict Scripture. There are NO verses that say what you keep claiming.
Jesus is the Savior of the world. John 1:29 (John the baptizer wasn't a calvinist). John 4:42, John 3:16 (whosoever), 2 Cor 5:14,15,19, 1 John 2:2-6, Heb 29
Now, please try to prove (not just make your claims) that all these verses ONLY applies to certain persons. You know, using the context.
Oh yes, your empty claims are clear. But they are just as wrong and unbiblical.
Now, get busy and prove that the verses above are limited to ONLY certain persons.
When the word "all" isn't further defined or narrowed, it DOES MEAN EVERYONE.
Keep that in mind.
I am sorry that I misread or misunderstood. Here you say Christ died only for His elect, not everyone. How do I know if I am one of Gods elect. I thought that Jesus died to make a way for anyone that wanted to follow him. Look at the world today it is clear that most do not want to fallow him. I truly am sorry if I upset you. I just did not understand, just like I am not sure who the elect are.
Here is a challenge for you to respond to:
For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.
Matt 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?
Rom 5:6 You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?
Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
The entire human race is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.
If Christ died for just the elect, then reformed theology leads to universalism, because of these verses. That means the non elect are neither sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, or sinners. So they don’t need salvation. And Christ wouldn’t need to die for any of them.
So, given all these verses about who Christ died for, do you admit that those He didn't die for would NOT be considered the sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners?
That would mean those He didn't die for DIDN'T NEED IT and will go to heaven because they ARE NOT the sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.
Looking forward to your response.
If a person is one of Gods elect, then God will give them the Gift of Faith in Christ, to believe in Him for Salvation/Righteousness
thankyou for clearing that up. Being new there are a lot of things I do not understand, I read the parable of the sewer and I want to be in the good ground and have fruit.
The is blatantly false.
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
JPT
But, how come there are no verses that teach this idea?
I already gave you a long list of verses that specifically say for whom Christ died. Here they are again. Please read them.
For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.
Matt 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?
Rom 5:6 You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?
Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
The entire human race is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.
If Christ died for just the elect, then reformed theology leads to universalism, because of these verses. That means the non elect are neither sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, or sinners. So they don’t need salvation. And Christ wouldn’t need to die for any of them.
Repeating a statement that cannot be found in the Bible is not a good look.
Why can't you prove your claims?
There aren't any verses that say "only".
All doesn't mean "only some".
Why won't you address all the verses in post 1,176 that plainly say that Christ died for the sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.
Since that is what the Bible says, where does that leave your opinion?
Christ died for the lost, sick, poor, the unrighteous and sinners.
That being so, do you consider the "found, healthy, rich, the righteous and non-sinners" don't need the work of Christ on the cross?
That would be the OBVIOUS conclusion, wouldn't it?
What we DO know is that the entire human race is lost, sick, poor, unrighteous and sinners. And He died for EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.
The Bible says so. In plain words.
You have nothing to support your claims.
When He hath by Himself purged our sins sat down !
Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Now scripture says here plainly, of those He died for only "when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:"
What does it mean purge our sins ?
David used the word Ps 51:7
Ps 65:3
Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.
Ps 79:9
Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
The word here means :
I.to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch
i.
to cover over, pacify, propitiate
ii.
to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for
iii.
to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites
C.
(Pual)
i.
to be covered over
ii.
to make atonement for
D.
(Hithpael) to be covered
Notice also that the writer here links this Purging with the Salvation of God and the Glory of His Name Sake/ Christ !
Now in the text of Heb 1:3 its the word katharismos and means:
C.a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ
Guilt of sins means:
the fact or state of having committed an offense, crime, violation, or wrong, especially against moral or penal law;
conduct involving the commission of such crimes, wrongs, etc.: to live a life of guilt.
The purging here denotes therefore no condemnation for their sins and crimes against God's Holy Law, Forgiveness as here Ps 32:1
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven , whose sin is covered or purged .
It denotes Justification from the penalty of sin, the penalty is taken away, there is no condemning guilt before God's Law that can be charged against them, for He hath purged their sins.
Christ's finished work of purging went far beyond the typical sacrifces of the People, it did what they could not do Heb 10:4
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Christ's Purging sacrifice took the peoples sins away permanently ! That's why it follows that after doing so, He sat down ! The typical priests could never set down, for their works of sacrifice for the people did not never end , evidencing the insuffiency of that economy in the things pertaining to the Glory of God and His People.
Christ's purging of the People did effect the soul of the people Heb 9:13-14
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
This is the same word purge as in Heb 1:3 !!
You see the positive effects that the Purging of Heb 1:3 has upon the objects for whom He shed His Blood for ? It purges their conscience from dead works, to serve the Living God.
Now if everyone Christ died for and purged their sins as per Heb 1:3 does not experience a conversion of life to serving the True and Living God, its an defect and failure on the Christ's Blood behalf and God's Glory has been jeopardized !
Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Now scripture says here plainly, of those He died for only "when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:"
What does it mean purge our sins ?
David used the word Ps 51:7
Ps 65:3
Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.
Ps 79:9
Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
The word here means :
I.to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch
i.
to cover over, pacify, propitiate
ii.
to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for
iii.
to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites
C.
(Pual)
i.
to be covered over
ii.
to make atonement for
D.
(Hithpael) to be covered
Notice also that the writer here links this Purging with the Salvation of God and the Glory of His Name Sake/ Christ !
Now in the text of Heb 1:3 its the word katharismos and means:
C.a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ
Guilt of sins means:
the fact or state of having committed an offense, crime, violation, or wrong, especially against moral or penal law;
conduct involving the commission of such crimes, wrongs, etc.: to live a life of guilt.
The purging here denotes therefore no condemnation for their sins and crimes against God's Holy Law, Forgiveness as here Ps 32:1
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven , whose sin is covered or purged .
It denotes Justification from the penalty of sin, the penalty is taken away, there is no condemning guilt before God's Law that can be charged against them, for He hath purged their sins.
Christ's finished work of purging went far beyond the typical sacrifces of the People, it did what they could not do Heb 10:4
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Christ's Purging sacrifice took the peoples sins away permanently ! That's why it follows that after doing so, He sat down ! The typical priests could never set down, for their works of sacrifice for the people did not never end , evidencing the insuffiency of that economy in the things pertaining to the Glory of God and His People.
Christ's purging of the People did effect the soul of the people Heb 9:13-14
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
This is the same word purge as in Heb 1:3 !!
You see the positive effects that the Purging of Heb 1:3 has upon the objects for whom He shed His Blood for ? It purges their conscience from dead works, to serve the Living God.
Now if everyone Christ died for and purged their sins as per Heb 1:3 does not experience a conversion of life to serving the True and Living God, its an defect and failure on the Christ's Blood behalf and God's Glory has been jeopardized !
When He hath by Himself purged our sins sat down !2
Now who is the writer referring to here in Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Well the same word is used here but its purify Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify G2511 unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
This is the Church, For Titus whom the book of Titus was written to Titus 1:1-4
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
So Titus 2:14 applies to him as a Gentile Titus 2:14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
The same word in Heb 1:3 as purge ! So who are the " Our sins" in Heb 1:3 ? Its the Church and also its Heb 2:16-17
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
The Our sins is the Seed of Abraham, which is also the Church Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's,[Church] then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Remember Jesus is Heir in Heb 1:2-3
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
He purged the sins of the Heirs together with Him, His Church, The Seed of Abraham.
The Church is the Wife of the Husband Christ who is Heir. You know Peter wrote of the Christian Husband and Wife this 1 Pet 3:7
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Now all this was to show the connection of the Seed of Abraham and the Church as being the same People whom it refers to as Our Sins in Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Now this cannot be refuted, I dare anyone to even try without twisting scripture. !
Now who is the writer referring to here in Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Well the same word is used here but its purify Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify G2511 unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
This is the Church, For Titus whom the book of Titus was written to Titus 1:1-4
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
So Titus 2:14 applies to him as a Gentile Titus 2:14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
The same word in Heb 1:3 as purge ! So who are the " Our sins" in Heb 1:3 ? Its the Church and also its Heb 2:16-17
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
The Our sins is the Seed of Abraham, which is also the Church Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's,[Church] then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Remember Jesus is Heir in Heb 1:2-3
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
He purged the sins of the Heirs together with Him, His Church, The Seed of Abraham.
The Church is the Wife of the Husband Christ who is Heir. You know Peter wrote of the Christian Husband and Wife this 1 Pet 3:7
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Now all this was to show the connection of the Seed of Abraham and the Church as being the same People whom it refers to as Our Sins in Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Now this cannot be refuted, I dare anyone to even try without twisting scripture. !