Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[rogerg]

Please include a verse to support your opinion.

Didn't you see the verse that immediately preceded my statement. The "but blessed are your eyes" one?

Cor 3-
14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

This is the principle that all verses follow.

Please take special note of v.16, which clearly shows the order: when anyone turns to the Lord, the "blinders" are taken away, and then people DO SEE and HEAR.

You erroneously assume God removes the blinders so that people can see and hear.

Calvinism has it backwards.

BTY you never answered my question if you think whether Christ's offering was sufficient within itself for salvation, or if we must contribute to it.

One can only turn to the Lord unless saved. We cannot turn to the Lord of our own volition. You assume the turning
is of ourselves which it cannot be. Think about the following verses. Question: how can a mind that is blinded within itself, turn itself from blindness? Answer: to be turned from blindness something external to it must intervene in order to turn it.
If the blind cannot lead the blind as we are told below, then neither can it lead itself.
Notice below that it (the veil) is done away with in Christ; that is, they must first be in Christ (saved) before the veil is taken away.
Notice also "his flesh" below.: Christ consecrated it for us by His offering, the His flesh being the veil-- again, speaking of salvation,

[Luk 6:39 KJV] 39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

[2Co 3:14 KJV] 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
[Heb 10:20 KJV] 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

 

[rogerg]

You and your brother here need to stop listing to what you are told others believe, and start to sit and actually listen to them’

And you and your brothers need to understand the Bible which, right now, I don't believe you can do

 

[fredoheaven]

So by that you are saying that Christ isn't the Saviour and we must be co-saviors with Him as His offering was insufficient? Is that what you believe? Look at the below verse. Do you see any contribution mentioned in v16? It tells us that it is by Christ's faith(fulness) that we receive our faith - first we are reckoned Christ's faith and from that does our faith surface. Without receiving Christ's faith we can never
have true faith. However, Christ's faith is given only from/by salvation: salvation first, our faith second.

[Gal 2:16, 20 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Gal 2:20 KJV]
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Well, it is the Saviours say " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life". Believing Christ does not make anyone a co-savior.

 

[rogerg]

Well, it is the Saviours say " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life". Believing Christ does not make anyone a co-savior.

It sure does if their doing it is a requirement for their salvation. How can it not be?

 

[awelight]

Like you completely ignored my explanation?

I did not ignore anything, I just do not accept your interpretation.

Again, The tax collector did not will himself to heaven, To think he did is prety much out there



So I should listen to them, and why?

I assume they all believe as you do. And this is where you get your faith?

Again, The tax collector did not will himself to heaven.. Hence your interpretation of verse 13 is flawed..

Everyone is influenced to some degree by others. To deny this is ludicrous. No one learns of the Truth in a vacuum. So your statement is totally invalid.

The Holy Spirit is from whom I get my faith. I lean on Him for help in interpreting Scripture but I also listen to preaching, read the works of men and pick up things from others. If someone has designed and built the wheel; why rebuild it? Our duty is to search the Scriptures and see if their ideas "hold water". Is this not true?

Okay - so you reject my exegesis on verses 12 & 13 of John 1. Now give the proper understanding of verse 13 in particular and quit trying to deflect with the tax collector.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It then saddened me, to see you take refuge in John 3:16.

Amazing! Saddened by a very clear verse on how to have eternal life. Now, THAT is what is sad.

As if that was all there was too it.

A smart jailer once asked the BEST evangelist in the world what he MUST DO to be saved.

Paul's answer: "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."

Does that sadden you as well?

What about John 3:5?

Since context always matters, -
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

iow, v.6 explains v.5.

So, being "born of water" refers to physical birth. Being born of the Spirit refers to the new birth.

How we believe and upon which Jesus we believe are very important.

The Bible answers the question of "how we believe".

Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Everyone believes the same way: from their heart.

As to "which Jesus we believe", there is only ONE Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible. Know your Bible.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

And you and your brothers need to understand the Bible which, right now, I don't believe you can do

Same can be said of you.

so instead of attacking each other, lets get to the roots.

Stop trying to defend yourself and discuss the word.

The truth does not need defended, its truth..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It sure does if their doing it is a requirement for their salvation. How can it not be?

Who said it was.

Thats a state. Not a command.

God did not say you better believe, He said whoever believes..

 

[rogerg]

Who said it was.

Thats a state. Not a command.

God did not say you better believe, He said whoever believes..

Huh?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Everyone is influenced to some degree by others. To deny this is ludicrous. No one learns of the Truth in a vacuum. So your statement is totally invalid.

The Holy Spirit is from whom I get my faith. I lean on Him for help in interpreting Scripture but I also listen to preaching, read the works of men and pick up things from others. If someone has designed and built the wheel; why rebuild it? Our duty is to search the Scriptures and see if their ideas "hold water". Is this not true?

Okay - so you reject my exegesis on verses 12 & 13 of John 1. Now give the proper understanding of verse 13 in particular and quit trying to deflect with the tax collector.

The catholics say the Holy Spirit helps them. As do most denominations.

I listen to preaching also. But you shared someone who believes as you do. Thats not going to help me, You act as if I have never studied this before or looked at all the evidence or arguments.

Exegesis? The issue is not how you interpret. It is what you interpret. I agree, salvation is not by the will of man. I can not will my kids to heaven, or my spouse. or my parents. Or even myself to heaven.

All I can do is place myself at the mercy of God. And cry out for his mercy.

I deserve condemnation. Nothing will change that. Not her will ever change that.

I must rely totally on God.

As I have said multiple times now. The tax collector did not will himself to heaven. So you claim by a person with free will chosing to call out to God to save them is them willing themselves to heaven is a false premise.

Thats not the case.

Again, Your not looking at the argument,

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Huh?

Whow wer believes is not condemned, Whoever does not believe is condemned already.

Those are statement of fact. Not commands..

The tax collector cried out for mercy, not with faith of a mountain, but with faith of a mustard seed.

And Jesus said he went hime justified.

The tax collector took what he learned from God through the law. Through the prophets. Through the creation. And through the leadin of God. And chose to accept his fate. And went to the only person ho could save him.

He did follow the command to believe. He merely accepted what God said as fact..

 

[FreeGrace2]

Cor 3-
14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

This is the principle that all verses follow.

Please take special note of v.16, which clearly shows the order: when anyone turns to the Lord, the "blinders" are taken away, and then people DO SEE and HEAR.

You erroneously assume God removes the blinders so that people can see and hear.

Calvinism has it backwards.

BTY you never answered my question if you think whether Christ's offering was sufficient within itself for salvation, or if we must contribute to it.

There is no effort that man can contribute, or anything else. And believing in Christ isn't a "contribution" to salvation.

One can only turn to the Lord unless saved.

Didn't you even read 2 Cor 3:14-16 that I shared? So I included my quote above. But your response here shows that you don't believe what Paul wrote. Why? The order is clear in v.16 - But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Can you at least just admit that you DON'T AGREE with 2 Cor 3:16?

We cannot turn to the Lord of our own volition.

You haven't supported that from Scripture. Your view is merely an opinion.

You assume the turning is of ourselves which it cannot be. [/QUOTE]
Why didn't Paul include how one turns IF it is not from their own choice? Of course turning is a choice that man can freely make.

Think about the following verses. Question: how can a mind that is blinded within itself, turn itself from blindness? Answer: to be turned from blindness something external to it must intervene in order to turn it.

You need to read 2 Cor 3:16 until you understand it.

[Luk 6:39 KJV] 39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

[2Co 3:14 KJV] 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
[Heb 10:20 KJV] 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Wow. Your second verse is in the context of v.16 which shows clearly the order: the blindness is resolved WHEN one turns to the Lord.

That is precisely what the verse says and says very clearly.

The problem is letting your calvinistic talking points get in the way of simply reading and believing the Bible.

The principle of turning BEFORE the blindness is removed is also found in the OT.

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Clear as day. IF the "wicked" and the "unrighteous" "turn to the Lord", the result is that the Lord will have mercy on them, and freely pardon them.

The red words are what the wicked and unrighteous need to to; turn to the Lord.
The blue words are what the Lord will do WHEN the wicked and unrighteous will do.

There are NO verses showing that God causes anyone to "turn to the Lord", "believe", etc.

 

[awelight]

Amazing! Saddened by a very clear verse on how to have eternal life. Now, THAT is what is sad.


A smart jailer once asked the BEST evangelist in the world what he MUST DO to be saved.

Paul's answer: "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."

Does that sadden you as well?


Since context always matters, -
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

iow, v.6 explains v.5.

So, being "born of water" refers to physical birth. Being born of the Spirit refers to the new birth.


The Bible answers the question of "how we believe".

Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Everyone believes the same way: from their heart.

As to "which Jesus we believe", there is only ONE Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible. Know your Bible.

By explanation - it saddened me because way to many so called Christians run too John 3:16. Churches are full of easy believism. Anyone who has studied the Bible knows it is not quite that easy. To begin with, true Repentance is required first. If I say I believe on Jesus Christ but never Truly Repented, then my believing is not genuine.

Charles Spurgeon once said: (I paraphrase), I fear that to many have come to believe in Jesus Christ, in the churches today, before they came to truly know what sin is. This would be belief without Repentance.

I never reject a Scripture. Nor do I hide behind a few that seem to give me creditability. I desire the whole council of God. Rom 10:10 is a great verse. My favorite, on the subject of belief is this because it requires this:

Mat_22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

And this takes a replacement heart from our old stony heart. This is accomplished in the New Birth and leads one to true Repentance.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It sure does if their doing it is a requirement for their salvation. How can it not be?

You are quite mistaken. Believing is God's REQUIREMENT.

John 6:29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

The Jews' question: v.28 - Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

 

[awelight]

Same can be said of you.

so instead of attacking each other, lets get to the roots.

Stop trying to defend yourself and discuss the word.

The truth does not need defended, its truth..

How wrong is that statement:

1Pe 3:15 but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear:

 

[John146]

By explanation - it saddened me because way to many so called Christians run too John 3:16. Churches are full of easy believism. Anyone who has studied the Bible knows it is not quite that easy. To begin with, true Repentance is required first. If I say I believe on Jesus Christ but never Truly Repented, then my believing is not genuine.

Charles Spurgeon once said: (I paraphrase), I fear that to many have come to believe in Jesus Christ, in the churches today, before they came to truly know what sin is. This would be belief without Repentance.

I never reject a Scripture. Nor do I hide behind a few that seem to give me creditability. I desire the whole council of God. Rom 10:10 is a great verse. My favorite, on the subject of belief is this because it requires this:

Mat_22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

And this takes a replacement heart from our old stony heart. This is accomplished in the New Birth and leads one to true Repentance.

Has the Lord Jesus made salvation a hard thing to get or easy?

 

[FreeGrace2]

By explanation - it saddened me because way to many so called Christians run too John 3:16.

Why do you have a problem with the very words of Jesus?

Churches are full of easy believism. Anyone who has studied the Bible knows it is not quite that easy.

Yep, just what I thought. A disciple of John MacArthur, or someone like him.

Aren't you aware of what else Jesus said?

Matt 11:28-30
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

To begin with, true Repentance is required first.

Do you know what repentance is? Please clarify.

If I say I believe on Jesus Christ but never Truly Repented, then my believing is not genuine.

It's not what one "says they believe". It's what one BELIEVES. btw, to believe in the saving work of Jesus Christ, one has to "repent" anyway. So don't make repentance a separate step.

Paul didn't do that with the jailer. He didn't say "repent and believe", as it seems you are doing.

Charles Spurgeon once said: (I paraphrase), I fear that to many have come to believe in Jesus Christ, in the churches today, before they came to truly know what sin is. This would be belief without Repentance.

Nonsense. Those who have "come to believe in Jesus Christ" ARE saved. Period.

I never reject a Scripture.

I've just showed you several that are contrary to what you claim.

Nor do I hide behind a few that seem to give me creditability. I desire the whole council of God. Rom 10:10 is a great verse. My favorite, on the subject of belief is this because it requires this:

Mat_22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Do you believe that this verse is a saving verse?

And this takes a replacement heart from our old stony heart.

It seems you misunderstand the stony heart/heart of flesh from Isa 36.

This is accomplished in the New Birth and leads one to true Repentance.

And it seems you believe that the new birth leads to saving faith. Do you have a verse that teaches this?

While you are looking for one (there aren't any), consider 2 verses:

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
The 2 red phrases are synonymous. iow, regeneration is synonymous with salvation. They go together. Can't have one without the other.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

The red phrase is the exact same as at the end of v.5.

The blue words are the means of salvation: through faith. Not election, not repentance, but faith.

These 2 verses prove that both regeneration and salvation are "through faith".

iow, faith precedes both regeneration and salvation.

Is a calvinist mindset able to wrap their head around all this?

 

[FreeGrace2]

awelight said:
By explanation - it saddened me because way to many so called Christians run too John 3:16. Churches are full of easy believism. Anyone who has studied the Bible knows it is not quite that easy. To begin with, true Repentance is required first. If I say I believe on Jesus Christ but never Truly Repented, then my believing is not genuine.

Charles Spurgeon once said: (I paraphrase), I fear that to many have come to believe in Jesus Christ, in the churches today, before they came to truly know what sin is. This would be belief without Repentance.

I never reject a Scripture. Nor do I hide behind a few that seem to give me creditability. I desire the whole council of God. Rom 10:10 is a great verse. My favorite, on the subject of belief is this because it requires this:

Mat_22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

And this takes a replacement heart from our old stony heart. This is accomplished in the New Birth and leads one to true Repentance.

Has the Lord Jesus made salvation a hard thing to get or easy?

Easy. Matt 11:28-30

 

[Nehemiah6]

I don't know how to make it any clearer than this: if Christ's offering was intended by God for everyone as you imply, then everyone must become saved regardless of whether they choose to accept it in order to be covered by it.

This is one of the major fallacies of Calvinists, because they simply ignore the fact that sinners must obey the Gospel in order to be saved. And the reason they ignore this Gospel truth is because they assume that the "elect" somehow automatically get saved. But the Bible is crystal clear, and just two verses -- which are the words of Christ -- should be sufficient: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16) [Note: baptism does not save, but accompanies salvation]... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (Jn 3:36)

So what the Gospel says is this (and everything below can be supported by Scripture):

1. All human beings are sinners, therefore Christ died for all.

2. God desires the salvation of all mankind, and that none should perish, but all come to repentance.

3. If all would repent and believe all would be saved.

4. Since all will not obey the Gospel, all will not be saved.

This is not rocket science, but Calvinists simply cannot grasp simple Gospel truths. That's because they have allowed themselves to be brainwashed with man-made doctrines.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

How wrong is that statement:

1Pe 3:15 but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear:

Giving an answer is far from what has being going on here my friend.

Discussing what a passage says should be a give and take. Not a he said she said. Like we get here all the time.

I learned a lot of what I believe today because I finally humbled myself and stop trying to teach people. Instead try to learn from people..