Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[awelight]

As usual. You try to deflect the conversation so it only goes your way.

I posted about john 1. You refused to discuss John 1, and instead when to another passage in john which has nothign to do with John 1.

I am trying to discuss. Your trying to deflect. Then claim I am not discussing just showing observations.

When your ready to discuss John 1. Lets do it. until then. I will let you ramble away.

My question to you still stands and the comments valid. It is easy to see who refuses to give answer - just follow through the posts.

What about John 1? Do you think you have a verse of Scripture that will somehow negate the validity of the other verses, which I have given? What kind of foolishness is this?

You gave me John 1:12 and conveniently left off the rest of the sentence in verse 13. Shall we look at the whole sentence then?


John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Verse 13 - the back-half of the sentence makes CLEAR 3 things about verse 12 - the front of the sentence. That the "receiving", "becoming children of God" and "believing", have nothing to do with:

1.) The "blood", your DNA, your ancestry have nothing to do with it.
2.) The "will of the flesh", cannot will itself to become a child of God. Becoming a "child of God", is a right given only by God.
3.) The "will of man", No man can, in anyway teach something, perform something or physically do something that would grant you the right or have an influence upon God.

Verse 13 -"... but God." Which goes back to verse 12 and the portion of the sentence that sates: "...to them gave he the right to become children of God."

Over to you....

 

[Thewatchman]

to all of you please take a few min. to read this. there was an earth age before this one there was war in heaven Satan wanted to take
Berean Study Bible Par ▾
A Prophecy against the Ruler of Tyre
1And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2“Son of man, tell the ruler of Tyre that this is what the Lord GOD says:
Your heart is proud,
and you have said,
‘I am a god;
I sit in the seat of gods
in the heart of the sea.’
Yet you are a man and not a god,
though you have regarded your heart
as that of a god.
3Behold, you are wiser than Daniel;
no secret is hidden from you!
4By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained your wealth
and amassed gold and silver
for your treasuries.
5By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
but your heart has grown proud
because of it.
6Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says:
Because you regard your heart
as the heart of a god,
7behold, I will bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations.
They will draw their swords
against the beauty of your wisdom
and will defile your splendor.
8They will bring you down to the Pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.
9Will you still say, ‘I am a god,’
in the presence of those who slay you?
You will be only a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who wound you.
10You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
For I have spoken,
declares the Lord GOD.”
A Lament for the King of Tyre
11Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12“Son of man, take up a lament for the king of Tyre and tell him that this is what the Lord GOD says:
‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God.
Every kind of precious stone adorned you:a
ruby, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,b turquoise, and emerald.
Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold,
prepared on the day of your creation.
14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for I had ordained you.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15From the day you were created
you were blameless in your ways—
until wickedness was found in you.
16By the vastness of your trade,
you were filled with violence, and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace
from the mountain of God,
and I banished you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17Your heart grew proud of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor;
so I cast you to the earth;
I made you a spectacle before kings.
18By the multitude of your iniquities
and the dishonesty of your trading
you have profaned your sanctuaries.
So I made fire come from within you,
and it consumed you.
I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the eyes of all who saw you.
19All the nations who know you
are appalled over you.
You have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’ ”

over the mercy seat rather than protect it

 

[peldom10]

Lets use your own argument

If Jesus paid for the sin of unbelief, then everyone would get to heaven

If he paid for the sin of unbelief, then when he told John whoever believes is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already. because their sin of unbelief would have been paid for.

Christ is the savior. But he will not force you to believe or to receive his gift. He has the right to chose however he wants. You do not have the right to tell him why he must chose one over another..

I do not have that right either.

He did tell us,, In tha passages I posted in post 3366

you can believe him, or continue to misrepresent him

Why are you substituting unbelief for sin?
Transference is your game.

You have no advocacy here.

 

[rogerg]

No you have it wrong

He paid for every sin but the sin of unbelief. A person has untikl the day they die to repent and come to faith. Thats why John, and Jesus and the disciples said to repent.

So by that you are saying that Christ isn't the Saviour and we must be co-saviors with Him as His offering was insufficient? Is that what you believe? Look at the below verse. Do you see any contribution mentioned in v16? It tells us that it is by Christ's faith(fulness) that we receive our faith - first we are reckoned Christ's faith and from that does our faith surface. Without receiving Christ's faith we can never
have true faith. However, Christ's faith is given only from/by salvation: salvation first, our faith second.

[Gal 2:16, 20 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Gal 2:20 KJV]
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Now, if you can find a verse that says that God causes people to listen and learn, be my guest.

The logic of your post is absurd. Anyway, to answer your challenge:

Interesting "comment" about those verses that show who will come to Christ.

Their eyes and ears had to first be blessed by God in order for them to understand.

Please include a verse to support your opinion.

They were given spiritual eyes and ears. They, nor anyone else, can see or hear unless that happens

Again, please provide a verse.

[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

[Mar 4:11-12 KJV]
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

Calvinists seem totally unaware of the order of things, but Paul will help you out.

2 Cor 3-
14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

This is the principle that all verses follow.

Please take special note of v.16, which clearly shows the order: when anyone turns to the Lord, the "blinders" are taken away, and then people DO SEE and HEAR.

You erroneously assume God removes the blinders so that people can see and hear.

Calvinism has it backwards.

 

[Shakey]

There are many deceptions in the world today......We need to look and the OT prophecy and the NT promise....evil is here and will grow, through the acceptance and blood of our risen Christ we are saved, a child of God, a resident of heaven. I would encourage all to watch, listen to Jan Markell and her very learned guests on Bible prophecy....We have to be on the same ARK, God created us, sent Jesus for the price of our sins, believe on this receive this to be a child of God. Keep this, live this, show this so others may see and seek what we have as a child of God, resident of heaven. The war is not over, there is more to come!

https://rumble.com/v10lmuv-the-importance-of-understanding-the-end-times.html

 

[awelight]

Thanks, awelight. I wasn't aware of those verses - they are good ones. and will include them in the future. I trying to keep my reply simple because it seems that unless it only consists of a verse or two, people tend to lose interest and stop reading. So, I chose those because I thought that possibly, they might be the clearest.

Yes, sadly, too many will not take the time to read all of a post or give it the time for due contemplation. This makes them guilty of this well known verse:

Pro 18:13 He that giveth answer before he hears it (all), It is folly and shame unto him.

You are welcome for the verses. The verses of God extending knowledge directly in Exodus, to accomplish His purpose, are some of the strongest in Scripture. I remember the first time I read those verses - I thought to myself - WOW! It is a reminder to all believers, God will never demand something from us that He will not equip us to do.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

My question to you still stands and the comments valid. It is easy to see who refuses to give answer - just follow through the posts.

What about John 1? Do you think you have a verse of Scripture that will somehow negate the validity of the other verses, which I have given? What kind of foolishness is this?

You gave me John 1:12 and conveniently left off the rest of the sentence in verse 13. Shall we look at the whole sentence then?


John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Verse 13 - the back-half of the sentence makes CLEAR 3 things about verse 12 - the front of the sentence. That the "receiving", "becoming children of God" and "believing", have nothing to do with:

1.) The "blood", your DNA, your ancestry have nothing to do with it.
2.) The "will of the flesh", cannot will itself to become a child of God. Becoming a "child of God", is a right given only by God.
3.) The "will of man", No man can, in anyway teach something, perform something or physically do something that would grant you the right or have an influence upon God.

Verse 13 -"... but God." Which goes back to verse 12 and the portion of the sentence that sates: "...to them gave he the right to become children of God."

Over to you....

Lol

Your argument is flawed.

You act as if I willed myself to heaven.

The tax collector did not will himself to heaven, He got on his knees and cried out for Gods mercy.

It was up to God to say yes, I will apply my gift to your credit based on your faith. It was not up to the tax collector to save himself. If he could save himself he never would have cried out.

In either case.

It says bit as many as have recieved him, to THEM (those who recieved him) he gave the right or power to become children.

You can nt twist the words of John and make John say something he never said.

So while as you said it is easy to refute. It is easy to refute on my end your thinking of what John 1 says, based on your in accurate view of what true living faith is..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Why are you substituting unbelief for sin?
Transference is your game.

You have no advocacy here.

Your babbling as usual

When you have something important to say or can actually comprehend my words. Get back with me. Thats why I usually do not respond to your posts.

 

[awelight]

No..... open your mind to word meaning.

Then you can conclude as you wish.

Last post to the point.

Which apparently has no point.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So by that you are saying that Christ isn't the Saviour and we must be co-saviors with Him as His offering was insufficient?

Dude I am about sick of this nonsense. You are so indoctrinated in the fatalistic view. You keep insisting that faith is something it is not.

The tax collector did no co save himself. The tax collector became poor in spirit. He did what Jesus said we must do if we are to enter the kingdom. He became bankrupt. Emptied himself in total humility and fell on his face in hopelessness and did the only thing here could do. Placed his eternity in the hands of the living God.

You and your brother here need to stop listing to what you are told others believe, and start to sit and actually listen to them’

 

[Shakey]

Acts, Chapter 17 verse 11, Paul of Tarsus and Silas preached at Berea, and the inhabitants "... received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.", and many of them believed.

Search the scriptures, they back each other up....

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes, sadly, too many will not take the time to read all of a post or give it the time for due contemplation. This makes them guilty of this well known verse:

Pro 18:13 He that giveth answer before he hears it (all), It is folly and shame unto him.

You are welcome for the verses. The verses of God extending knowledge directly in Exodus, to accomplish His purpose, are some of the strongest in Scripture. I remember the first time I read those verses - I thought to myself - WOW! It is a reminder to all believers, God will never demand something from us that He will not equip us to do.

I will be honest, alot of the time the first sentence or two of a quote is so outlandish, that there is really no need to go further.. If we do not come to the point we can agree, or agree to disagree with understanding of the other persons view point in the first few sentences. The rest are prety much insignificant.

I used to feel if I just make long posts with a lot of verses. People would have to see. It never worked. So I stopped doing that because most of the time people did not read them anyway.

If we stick to a few points at a time. it does not get so out of hand..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Acts, Chapter 17 verse 11, Paul of Tarsus and Silas preached at Berea, and the inhabitants "... received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.", and many of them believed.

Search the scriptures, they back each other up....

All these words are meaningless if a person can not understand what the word is saying..

 

[Shakey]

All these words are meaningless if a person can not understand what the word is saying..

That is why you study the word, search it out, do a deep study. Learn the translations, use a concordance, study the word so you can see what is it saying. Not trying to ruffle feathers, just want to encourage to truly study, understand translations and grow in God. we are all save by the same blood of Christ, we are ALL Gods children if we choose to believe and receive.....bottom line!

 

[awelight]

Lol

Your argument is flawed.

You act as if I willed myself to heaven.

The tax collector did not will himself to heaven, He got on his knees and cried out for Gods mercy.

It was up to God to say yes, I will apply my gift to your credit based on your faith. It was not up to the tax collector to save himself. If he could save himself he never would have cried out.

In either case.

It says bit as many as have recieved him, to THEM (those who recieved him) he gave the right or power to become children.

You can nt twist the words of John and make John say something he never said.

So while as you said it is easy to refute. It is easy to refute on my end your thinking of what John 1 says, based on your in accurate view of what true living faith is..

You completely IGNORED verse 13 of John. You ignored my explanation and refuse to offer any real point. You hold fast to your beliefs but cannot actually defend them.

If you will not believe me then how about these men:

John Gill:
But as many as received him,.... This is explained, in the latter part of the text, by believing in his name; for faith is a receiving him as the word, and Son of God, as the Messiah, Saviour, and Redeemer; a receiving grace out of his fulness, and every blessing from him, as a justifying righteousness, pardon of sin, and an inheritance among them that are sanctified; for though the generality rejected him, there were some few that received him:

even to them that believe in his name; that is, in himself, in Christ, the word: the phrase is explanative of the former part of the verse, and is a descriptive and manifestative character of the sons of God; for though the elect of God, by virtue of electing grace, and the covenant of grace, are the children of God before faith; and were so considered in the gift of them to Christ, and when he came into the world to gather them together, and save them; and so, antecedent to the Spirit of God, being sent down into their hearts, to make this known to them; yet no man can know his adoption, nor enjoy the comfort of it, or claim his interest in it, until he believes.

Nor of the will of the flesh; man's free will, which is carnal and corrupt, is enmity to God, and impotent to every thing that is spiritually good: regeneration is ascribed to another will and power, even to the will and power of God, and denied of this:

nor of the will of man: of the best of men, as Abraham, David, and others; who, though ever so willing and desirous, that their children, relations, friends, and servants, should be born again, be partakers of the grace of God, and live in his sight, yet cannot effect any thing of this kind: all that they can do is to pray for them, give advice, and bring them under the means of grace; but all is ineffectual without a divine energy.

Adam Clark:
Which were born, not of blood.. that having Abraham and Sarah for their parents would not entitle them to the blessings of the new covenant; as no man could lay claim to them, but in consequence of being born of God; therefore, neither the will of the flesh - any thing that the corrupt heart of man could purpose or determine in its own behalf; nor the will of man - any thing that another may be disposed to do in our behalf, can avail here; this new birth must come through the will of God - through; his own unlimited power and boundless mercy, prescribing salvation by Christ Jesus alone.

 

[fredoheaven]

My question to you still stands and the comments valid. It is easy to see who refuses to give answer - just follow through the posts.

What about John 1? Do you think you have a verse of Scripture that will somehow negate the validity of the other verses, which I have given? What kind of foolishness is this?

You gave me John 1:12 and conveniently left off the rest of the sentence in verse 13. Shall we look at the whole sentence then?


John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Verse 13 - the back-half of the sentence makes CLEAR 3 things about verse 12 - the front of the sentence. That the "receiving", "becoming children of God" and "believing", have nothing to do with:

1.) The "blood", your DNA, your ancestry have nothing to do with it.
2.) The "will of the flesh", cannot will itself to become a child of God. Becoming a "child of God", is a right given only by God.
3.) The "will of man", No man can, in anyway teach something, perform something or physically do something that would grant you the right or have an influence upon God.

Verse 13 -"... but God." Which goes back to verse 12 and the portion of the sentence that sates: "...to them gave he the right to become children of God."

Over to you....

Simply, it has nothing to do with the flesh, nothing to do with your "own" but the will of God, and what is Christ's will? We only have to believe on him and have everlasting life. John3:16

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That is why you study the word, search it out, do a deep study. Learn the translations, use a concordance, study the word so you can see what is it saying. Not trying to ruffle feathers, just want to encourage to truly study, understand translations and grow in God. we are all save by the same blood of Christ, we are ALL Gods children if we choose to believe and receive.....bottom line!

Amen

when we stand in front of God. We will be judged on what we believe, not what we are taught..

We shoudl never leave our eternity in the hands of others.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You completely IGNORED verse 13 of John. You ignored my explanation and refuse to offer any real point. You hold fast to your beliefs but cannot actually defend them.

Like you completely ignored my explanation?

I did not ignore anything, I just do not accept your interpretation.

Again, The tax collector did not will himself to heaven, To think he did is prety much out there

If you will not believe me then how about these men:

John Gill:
But as many as received him,.... This is explained, in the latter part of the text, by believing in his name; for faith is a receiving him as the word, and Son of God, as the Messiah, Saviour, and Redeemer; a receiving grace out of his fulness, and every blessing from him, as a justifying righteousness, pardon of sin, and an inheritance among them that are sanctified; for though the generality rejected him, there were some few that received him:

even to them that believe in his name; that is, in himself, in Christ, the word: the phrase is explanative of the former part of the verse, and is a descriptive and manifestative character of the sons of God; for though the elect of God, by virtue of electing grace, and the covenant of grace, are the children of God before faith; and were so considered in the gift of them to Christ, and when he came into the world to gather them together, and save them; and so, antecedent to the Spirit of God, being sent down into their hearts, to make this known to them; yet no man can know his adoption, nor enjoy the comfort of it, or claim his interest in it, until he believes.

Nor of the will of the flesh; man's free will, which is carnal and corrupt, is enmity to God, and impotent to every thing that is spiritually good: regeneration is ascribed to another will and power, even to the will and power of God, and denied of this:

nor of the will of man: of the best of men, as Abraham, David, and others; who, though ever so willing and desirous, that their children, relations, friends, and servants, should be born again, be partakers of the grace of God, and live in his sight, yet cannot effect any thing of this kind: all that they can do is to pray for them, give advice, and bring them under the means of grace; but all is ineffectual without a divine energy.

Adam Clark:
Which were born, not of blood.. that having Abraham and Sarah for their parents would not entitle them to the blessings of the new covenant; as no man could lay claim to them, but in consequence of being born of God; therefore, neither the will of the flesh - any thing that the corrupt heart of man could purpose or determine in its own behalf; nor the will of man - any thing that another may be disposed to do in our behalf, can avail here; this new birth must come through the will of God - through; his own unlimited power and boundless mercy, prescribing salvation by Christ Jesus alone.

So I should listen to them, and why?

I assume they all believe as you do. And this is where you get your faith?

Again, The tax collector did not will himself to heaven.. Hence your interpretation of verse 13 is flawed..

 

[awelight]

Simply, it has nothing to do with the flesh, nothing to do with your "own" but the will of God, and what is Christ's will? We only have to believe on him and have everlasting life. John3:16

I wish I could rejoice in your response but alas, several things may be out of joint. Don't really know your Theology or Soteriology.

You said: Simply, it has nothing to do with the flesh, nothing to do with your "own" but the will of God, and what is Christ's will?
I agree - it has nothing to do with the flesh. But what did you mean by God's will and Christ's will? Do you think them somehow independent or different in someway?

It then saddened me, to see you take refuge in John 3:16. As if that was all there was too it. What about John 3:5?

How we believe and upon which Jesus we believe are very important.