You are miss interpreting God's word.
It is His desire that no one is lost...thus ...it is His desire.
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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You are miss interpreting God's word.
It is His desire that no one is lost...thus ...it is His desire.
No. I think you've misunderstood the point of the verse. Paul was informing them they were to give thanks for everything that was happening to them was because they were under, and was caused by, the "will of God in Christ". If I might paraphrase: " that which is happening to you is because you are under the will of God to suffer for Christ, so be thankful that it is happening to you because by it is a demonstration of your salvation".
I realize it is a subtle (yet important) distinction and difficult to see.
[1Th 5:18 KJV] 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
I don't know how to make it any clearer than this: if Christ's offering was intended by God for everyone as you imply, then everyone
must become saved regardless of whether they choose to accept it in order to be covered by it. The salvation
transaction (so to speak) was entirely, and solely, between God the Father and Jesus Christ, which was accepted by the Father. Under those circumstances our acceptance of it has no bearing upon it. To say otherwise is to say that Christ's offering was insufficient for its intended purpose. Here, please read these verses closely:
[Jhn 6:37-39 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Nope, you are reading through Calvin's goggles. It is God's will that we give thanks in everything.
Do you sin? Is sin God's will for your life? If we automatically did God's will there would be no need for scripture.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Nope on your nope.
I didn't say we shouldn't give thanks. I said that Paul was saying the things happening to them were of God's will.
So then next time you take a walk, with each step make sure to thank God; each time and every time you blink
your eyes, make sure to thank God; each and every time you take a breath, make sure to thank God. And if you don't, then by your own standard, I guess you've sinned.
No need to continue with this further. I think we've pretty much exhausted it.
This is a common, but incorrect, notion held by many, That if God died for all. then by definition, all must be saved.
This is only true, if Jesus died for the sin of unbelief. We find no mention any where in scripture that this is the case,
In fact, we find the opposite.
He who believes is NOT CONDEMNED
he who does not believe is CONDEMNED ALREADY
If Jesus died for the sin of unbelief. then even an unbeliever would be free of condemnation.
Scripture states clearly. All have sinned
It states all have failed to keep Gods requirements
It states all are dead because of sin
It states there are non righteous no not one.
everyone is in the same boat. Guilty before God
the ONLY thing that separates the lost from the saved is belief (saving faith)
the saved received him in faith (john 1)
The saved looked up to Christ in faith on the cross (john 3)
The saved hear his word and in faith believe (john 5)
The saved, after hearing the word. In faith receive the word (eph 1_
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
That is what seperates a child of God from a non child of God..
he who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already, why? Because God did not raise them up? Because God did not open their eyes? Because God did not regenerate them? No! Because they did not believe
peldom10 said:
It is His desire that no one is lost...thus ...it is His desire.
He has given mankind the freedom to believe or not. That is why Jesus HAD TO die for everyone; showing ALL angels that God permits choice, and is NOT a puppet master.
6:44 - “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Sounds kinda calvinst like.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
Oh, no so much now that there is context.
God has "TAUGHT EVERYONE".
Those who have LISTENED and LEARNED come to Jesus.
Now, if you can find a verse that says that God causes people to listen and learn, be my guest.
It is His desire that no one is lost...thus ...it is His desire.
You simply do not understand God's permissive will. Though He desires that everyone be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth,
He has given mankind the freedom to believe or not. That is why Jesus HAD TO die for everyone; showing ALL angels that God permits choice, and is NOT a puppet master.
Another calvinist talking point that CANNOT be found in Scripture.
Ditto.
You are quite confused.
Let's continue a bit farther, shall we?
6:44 - “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Sounds kinda calvinst like.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
Oh, no so much now that there is context.
God has "TAUGHT EVERYONE".
Those who have LISTENED and LEARNED come to Jesus.
Now, if you can find a verse that says that God causes people to listen and learn, be my guest.
So then Christ only died for some sins but not all? Really? So by that you're actually saying that Christ isn't the Saviour.
Do you think Saul was a believer before he was saved? No, he wasn't, yet God chose to forgive his sin including unbelief and save him.
If Saul was the chief sinner as he told us that he was then, well, he was the chief of sinners which means he was an unbeliever too.
This should be "mention" enough for you.
[1Ti 1:13-15 KJV]
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Exactly my point. If an unbeliever is of the elect, then yes, the unbeliever's sin of unbelief is forgiven him when they become saved. All who become saved were unbelievers beforehand.
Faith (belief) is a fruit of the indwelling of Holy Spirit who is given when someone becomes saved, A person's faith is not what saves him but is a result of salvation
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The only thing that separates the lost from the saved is God's election of them by which they are given faith.
Belief is a gift from God - it is a result, not a cause. He who believes is not condemned because he has been saved and given faith. Only through salvation is one not condemned.
As usual, your reply has no meat in it. It is no real response to my post. Just general observations as you see them.
The art of conversation and discussion is, I give my side in a focused, intelligible way and you respond in kind. Comments like you have above, mean nothing and say nothing, other than how you feel about the subject. Where is the evidence that directly refutes my conclusion? Where is the evidence that the Sheep are not a particular group? Where is the evidence that Election is not a particular number?
And by the way, Your understanding of the term "hardening" is incorrect. It can mean to reinforce or strengthen ones resolve. However, it is also used to mean, alter ones direction or keep one from changing direction. Both God and people are said to be agents of hardening and there is a self-hardening.
As to God Hardening:
Exo 9:12 And Jehovah hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them, as Jehovah had spoken unto Moses.
Exo 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall go in after them: and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
Deu_2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day.
John_12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them.
As to self-hardening
Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them, as Jehovah had spoken.
Exo 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.
The logic of your post is absurd. Anyway, to answer your challenge:
Their eyes and ears had to first be blessed by God in order for them to understand.
They were given spiritual eyes and ears. They, nor anyone else, can see or hear unless that happens
[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
[Mar 4:11-12 KJV]
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.
There are several verses of Scripture that seem to imply that God "desires or wishes" all men to be saved, however, upon closer examination, this will not hold up within the context.
Let's look at a couple of these:
1Tim 2:4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.
First of all, we must apply commonsense. If God "would have" ALL men to be saved, then all men will be saved. We know this is not taught throughout Scripture. Many will be condemned because they do not believe the Truth. So how are we to understand this verse?
If one examines the context of the preceding verses 1-3, they will notice the writer is talking about Kings and leaders, so that believers are to pray for a tranquil and quiet life, to which these leaders have a control over. When we get to verse 4, the "all men" is to be understood as "all manner of men". For Scripture elsewhere says: That God chose the foolish of this world. Not many rich, strong or wise. Therefore His Chosen, are people from all walks of life. In verse 6 - "... gave Himself a ransom for all...", would be understood in the same way. He (Christ), gave Himself a ransom for all manner of men. It cannot mean "all" in number because it is limited by our Lord in Mat. 10:28 and Mark 10:45, as well as John 10:11 & 15, to mention a few.
Another verse often quoted and misused is:
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Here again, let's apply commonsense. God knows that many will perish and is allowing them to do so. Therefore, the "all" herein cannot mean "all" in number.
The first thing we notice is: The writer says that God is Longsuffering toward us. Who are the "us" in this sentence? The "us" are the believers in Jesus Christ and NOT the people of the world in general. The "... any should perish..." must be the Elect of God. This harmonizes with the statement and thought of Rom. 11:25. The "fulness of the Gentiles be come in", refers to the Elect Gentiles yet to be saved.
Therefore, God is longsuffering of the unrighteous deeds of the lost because of His Elect. All of them, shall have the time to come to repentance.
Hope this helps.
Lets use your own argument
If Jesus paid for the sin of unbelief, then everyone would get to heaven
If he paid for the sin of unbelief, then when he told John whoever believes is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already. because their sin of unbelief would have been paid for.
Christ is the savior. But he will not force you to believe or to receive his gift. He has the right to chose however he wants. You do not have the right to tell him why he must chose one over another..
I do not have that right either.
He did tell us,, In tha passages I posted in post 3366
you can believe him, or continue to misrepresent him
As usual. You try to deflect the conversation so it only goes your way.
I posted about john 1. You refused to discuss John 1, and instead when to another passage in john which has nothign to do with John 1.
I am trying to discuss. Your trying to deflect. Then claim I am not discussing just showing observations.
When your ready to discuss John 1. Lets do it. until then. I will let you ramble away.
Something else I notice that may shed some light on whom the "us-ward" of this verse are. If we look to the
salutation of chapter 1, we see the following:
[2Pe 1:1-3 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
From it, I think it is clear that Peter directed the "us-ward" to those who have "obtained like precious faith with us though the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ". So, based upon that, I think we can know the "us-ward" of 3:9 are the elect and was not intended to pertain to everyone.
You might want to include these verses in your argument my friend.
Exo 31:1 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying,
Exo 31:2 See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
Exo 31:3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Exo 31:4 to devise skilful works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
Exo 31:5 and in cutting of stones for setting, and in carving of wood, to work in all manner of workmanship.
Exo 31:6 And I, behold, I have appointed with him Oholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan; and in the heart of all that are wise-hearted I have put wisdom, that they may make all that I have commanded thee:
Exo 35:34 And he hath put in his heart that he may teach, both he, and Oholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan.
Exo 35:35 Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of workmanship, of the engraver, and of the skilful workman, and of the embroiderer, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet, and in fine linen, and of the weaver, even of them that do any workmanship, and of those that devise skilful works.
Other verses of interest:
- Psalm 37:23-24: “The Lord directs the steps of the godly. He delights in every detail of their lives. Though they stumble, they will never fall, for the Lord holds them by the hand.”
- Proverbs 16:9: “We can make our plans, but the Lord determines our steps.”
- Psalm 31:14-15: “But I trust in you, Lord; I say, ‘You are my God. My times are in your hands.”
- Proverbs 20:24: “The Lord directs our steps, so why try to understand everything along the way?”
- Psalm 119:105: “Your word is a lamp to guide My feet and a light for my path.”
- Proverbs 19:21: “Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.”
- Isaiah 48:17 (The Message): “I am God, your God, who teaches you how to live right and well. I show you what to do, where to go.”
No, you have it wrong. He didn't pay the price for the sins of everyone- He paid only for all of sins of those whom He had chosen at the foundation of the word including the sin of unbelief - paid in full for the elect.
Thanks, awelight. I wasn't aware of those verses - they are good ones. and will include them in the future. I trying to keep my reply simple because it seems that unless it only consists of a verse or two, people tend to lose interest and stop reading. So, I chose those because I thought that possibly, they might be the clearest.
No you have it wrong
He paid for every sin but the sin of unbelief. A person has untikl the day they die to repent and come to faith. Thats why John, and Jesus and the disciples said to repent.
Do any of you have any idea of just who Gods elect are? God knew everyone of us From Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (period, stop, this thought has ended) There was a whole earth age that happened between verse 1 & 2. It is easy to understand if you have eyes to see and ears to hear. Gods elect are those that stood with Jesus when Satan tried to take over the mercy seat. You can read about it if you want to take the time to do so. It is this kind of a thread that makes me stay away.
No..... open your mind to word meaning.
Then you can conclude as you wish.
Last post to the point.