Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?
- Thread starter Lori
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Matthew 24 in context is Jesus speaking to the disciples but not to the church. The church isn't addressed until Acts to Revelation. Matthew 24 is speaking about events centered on Jerusalem, the surrounding hills, the Sabbath as they will also have a new Temple, etc. It no where indicates that the Church is present. It simply means at this time God's promise for the Jews are about to be completed.
-
1
- Show all
L
That's not the three stages that you posted in the post that I quoted, but even this post has error.
In relation to your other post, the three alleged stages which you mentioned were:
1. The saints who arose from the dead when Christ was crucified.
Again, none of these saints have been resurrected unto glorified bodies yet, nor will they be until the time of Christ's SECOND COMING as he ushers in his Millennial Reign right here on earth.
That's error #1 in your previous post.
2. The alleged pre-tribulation rapture which you claim (read your own post) will occur "at the first appearance of Christ".
This is erroneous for more than one reason.
For starters, Christ's "first appearance" was during his incarnation.
Secondly, although you're apparently using the terminology of "the first appearance of Christ" in a sense which alleges two more comings of Christ (an alleged pre-tribulation rapture and then martyrs allegedly being resurrected 7 years later), again, the Bible only speaks of TWO COMINGS of Christ (Heb. 9:27), and NOT three.
These, therefore, are errors number 2 and 3, but I'll excuse #2 because of how you meant to use that terminology.
3. Those who are allegedly going to resurrected from the dead 7 years after those who were allegedly resurrected 7 years earlier in an alleged pre-tribulation that is never going to occur.
Again, when it comes to this "first resurrection" as described in Revelation chapter 20, it is the first of ONLY TWO resurrections, and it coincides with the ushering in of Christ's Millennial Reign, so there couldn't possibly have been another resurrection where people received their glorified bodies PRIOR TO THIS or else this wouldn't truly be "the FIRST resurrection".
Again, the first resurrection is the resurrection of saints in glorified bodies which begins at the ushering in of Christ's Millennial Reign and NOT seven years earlier.
The second resurrection is the resurrection of the damned which occurs at the end of Christ's Millennial Reign:
Revelation chapter 20
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The prophet Daniel spoke of these TWO RESURRECTIONS when he wrote:
Daniel chapter 12
[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
There is a coming resurrection "to everlasting life", and, again, this is "the first resurrection" that we read about in Revelation chapter 20, and NOT any of those other resurrections that you mentioned in previous posts.
There is also coming a resurrection "to shame and everlasting contempt", and this is the second resurrection which occurs at the end of Christ's Millennial Reign.
Jesus similarly spoke of ONLY TWO RESURRECTIONS when he said:
John chapter 5
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Again, according to Jesus Christ, "the first resurrection" is "the resurrection of life" which occurs at Christ's SECOND COMING.
There is also coming a second resurrection or "the resurrection of damnation" which, again, occurs at the end of Christ's Millennial Reign.
With these truths in mind, there is much error in your first post that I quoted.
Let's also quickly look at the list that you provided here:
1. Jesus.
2. The Church.
3. The martyrs.
Jesus CLEARLY is NOT a part of "the first resurrection" mentioned in the book of Revelation chapter 20. In fact, he resurrected 2000 years or more PRIOR TO this "first resurrection" or "the first resurrection" of THE SAINTS (NOT Jesus) unto eternal life in their glorified bodies.
As far as "the church" and the martyrs are concerned, well, they're both part of one and the same group.
Christ's "church" or "ekklesia", which literally means "a called out congregration", has been in effect since way back in Genesis.
Yes, even as Paul rightly taught, the forming of the first husband and wife, Adam and Eve, was "a great mystery" which pointed to Christ and his church.
All of the Old Testament saints, such as GENTILES (they were the first to be saved in that they preceded the Jews) like Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham (yes, Abraham was a believing GENTILE) were and are a part of Christ's "church" or called out congregation of believers. So too are the martyrs who we read about in the book of Revelation.
Anyhow, as I said in my initial post here which nobody commented on, this whole pre-tribulation rapture heresy is just the cherry on the cake of a much bigger heresy:
The heresy of Dispensationalism.
In relation to your other post, the three alleged stages which you mentioned were:
1. The saints who arose from the dead when Christ was crucified.
Again, none of these saints have been resurrected unto glorified bodies yet, nor will they be until the time of Christ's SECOND COMING as he ushers in his Millennial Reign right here on earth.
That's error #1 in your previous post.
2. The alleged pre-tribulation rapture which you claim (read your own post) will occur "at the first appearance of Christ".
This is erroneous for more than one reason.
For starters, Christ's "first appearance" was during his incarnation.
Secondly, although you're apparently using the terminology of "the first appearance of Christ" in a sense which alleges two more comings of Christ (an alleged pre-tribulation rapture and then martyrs allegedly being resurrected 7 years later), again, the Bible only speaks of TWO COMINGS of Christ (Heb. 9:27), and NOT three.
These, therefore, are errors number 2 and 3, but I'll excuse #2 because of how you meant to use that terminology.
3. Those who are allegedly going to resurrected from the dead 7 years after those who were allegedly resurrected 7 years earlier in an alleged pre-tribulation that is never going to occur.
Again, when it comes to this "first resurrection" as described in Revelation chapter 20, it is the first of ONLY TWO resurrections, and it coincides with the ushering in of Christ's Millennial Reign, so there couldn't possibly have been another resurrection where people received their glorified bodies PRIOR TO THIS or else this wouldn't truly be "the FIRST resurrection".
Again, the first resurrection is the resurrection of saints in glorified bodies which begins at the ushering in of Christ's Millennial Reign and NOT seven years earlier.
The second resurrection is the resurrection of the damned which occurs at the end of Christ's Millennial Reign:
Revelation chapter 20
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The prophet Daniel spoke of these TWO RESURRECTIONS when he wrote:
Daniel chapter 12
[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
There is a coming resurrection "to everlasting life", and, again, this is "the first resurrection" that we read about in Revelation chapter 20, and NOT any of those other resurrections that you mentioned in previous posts.
There is also coming a resurrection "to shame and everlasting contempt", and this is the second resurrection which occurs at the end of Christ's Millennial Reign.
Jesus similarly spoke of ONLY TWO RESURRECTIONS when he said:
John chapter 5
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Again, according to Jesus Christ, "the first resurrection" is "the resurrection of life" which occurs at Christ's SECOND COMING.
There is also coming a second resurrection or "the resurrection of damnation" which, again, occurs at the end of Christ's Millennial Reign.
With these truths in mind, there is much error in your first post that I quoted.
Let's also quickly look at the list that you provided here:
1. Jesus.
2. The Church.
3. The martyrs.
Jesus CLEARLY is NOT a part of "the first resurrection" mentioned in the book of Revelation chapter 20. In fact, he resurrected 2000 years or more PRIOR TO this "first resurrection" or "the first resurrection" of THE SAINTS (NOT Jesus) unto eternal life in their glorified bodies.
As far as "the church" and the martyrs are concerned, well, they're both part of one and the same group.
Christ's "church" or "ekklesia", which literally means "a called out congregration", has been in effect since way back in Genesis.
Yes, even as Paul rightly taught, the forming of the first husband and wife, Adam and Eve, was "a great mystery" which pointed to Christ and his church.
All of the Old Testament saints, such as GENTILES (they were the first to be saved in that they preceded the Jews) like Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham (yes, Abraham was a believing GENTILE) were and are a part of Christ's "church" or called out congregation of believers. So too are the martyrs who we read about in the book of Revelation.
Anyhow, as I said in my initial post here which nobody commented on, this whole pre-tribulation rapture heresy is just the cherry on the cake of a much bigger heresy:
The heresy of Dispensationalism.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Then the second resurrection [of the damned] isn't immediately after 1,000 years; it's after the army of Gog and Magog, which lasts for an unspecified time... maybe even years, because it takes time to assemble them from all the nations and mobilize them. If the resurrection after the 1,000 years are saints then it doesn't suffer from any timeline problems like it would if it is a resurrection of the damned, imho.
That's the first half of it.
God offered the Messiah to the Jews. The Jews rejected Him, and they suffered their tribulation in 70ad.
But then God offered the Christ to the world. The world is rejecting Him, and it will suffer it's tribulation in the days to come.
Every word God speaks applies to every one of us, no matter who He was personally addressing at the time He spoke. That's why history repeats itself. One manifestation does not render His word moot.
God offered the Messiah to the Jews. The Jews rejected Him, and they suffered their tribulation in 70ad.
But then God offered the Christ to the world. The world is rejecting Him, and it will suffer it's tribulation in the days to come.
Every word God speaks applies to every one of us, no matter who He was personally addressing at the time He spoke. That's why history repeats itself. One manifestation does not render His word moot.
I sat down to write you a literal dissertation on the parallels of the Rapture and a traditional Jewish wedding. But I’d be writing for days.
Since I don’t know what you know, I’ve linked a sermon by one of my favorite theologians, Dr. John Barnette. The video is 24 minutes long, (so I apologize for the extensive homework) but he explains my personal understanding of the rapture so beautifully, I had to share it with you. Only a pre trib scenario fits this beautiful and poignant parallel. Enjoy.
Oh, and destination… heaven!
Since I don’t know what you know, I’ve linked a sermon by one of my favorite theologians, Dr. John Barnette. The video is 24 minutes long, (so I apologize for the extensive homework) but he explains my personal understanding of the rapture so beautifully, I had to share it with you. Only a pre trib scenario fits this beautiful and poignant parallel. Enjoy.
Oh, and destination… heaven!
I'm so sick and tired of this "rapture" doctrine. We can debate all day about the nature of this "rapture" and the timing of it, but regardless of all that, on a PERSONAL level, when a person yields their last breath, that's the SAME as the second coming, because until the Mark of the Beast is being instituted, death has been the absolute dividing line all throughout history. As long as a person is still alive, even when he's lying on the deathbed or hanged on the cross like the thief, he still has the LAST CHANCE to confess in Christ; but after death, his fate is sealed. That's why Christ is warning repeatedly that "I'm coming quickly" or "I'll come at an hour you don't expect", that's not just about His second coming to the world, but also His second coming to each and every one of us at the end of our lives. The Greek word "quickly" or "soon" is "tachy", which is to describe the swiftness or speediness of an action, that's the same word found in the medical term "tachycardia", the condition of a heart rate over 100 per minute. Matthew 24:27 told us that He'll come like a lightning flash, that's the nature of His return. It's not like that He's coming tomorrow or in the middle of the night, so don't be paranoid.
We don't know how long we'll live, or at least how long we'll have an able body and clear mind to maintain our preferred quality of life, a calamity could fall upon us at any moment. Therefore just to knock some sense out of this "second coming" message and make this eschatology relevant to our lives, this is a call for a sense of urgency to get serious and prepared before its too late. All three parables in Matt. 25 are not just about the end of THE world, they could also apply to the end of YOUR world and MY world. We'll be held accountable before the Lord, so don't be like the wicked servant getting complacent and discouraged.
We don't know how long we'll live, or at least how long we'll have an able body and clear mind to maintain our preferred quality of life, a calamity could fall upon us at any moment. Therefore just to knock some sense out of this "second coming" message and make this eschatology relevant to our lives, this is a call for a sense of urgency to get serious and prepared before its too late. All three parables in Matt. 25 are not just about the end of THE world, they could also apply to the end of YOUR world and MY world. We'll be held accountable before the Lord, so don't be like the wicked servant getting complacent and discouraged.
L
Think, Roughsoul1991, think.
When did the tribulation suddenly become an "hour"?
Everywhere in scripture, it is a period of 3 1/2 years, and NOT an "hour".
For example, we read:
"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. " (Daniel 7:25)
"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." (Daniel 12:7)
"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." (Revelation 12:14)
A "time" is one year, "times" are two years, and "the dividing of time" or "half a time" is half a year.
Add them all together, and we get 3 1/2 years...NOT an "hour".
Furthermore, in this same book of Revelation, we read:
"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." (Revelation 11:2)
"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." (Revelation 13:5)
"Forty and two months" is 3 1/2 years...NOT an "hour".
Further still, again, in this same book of Revelation, we read:
"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. " (Revelation 11:3)
"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." (Revelation 12:6)
"A thousand two hundred and threescore days" or 1260 days is 3 1/2 years...NOT an "hour".
With these REALITIES before us, who are you to contend that the great tribulation is here described as an "hour"?
It's nonsense.
Here is Revelation 3:10 IN CONTEXT:
Revelation chapter 3
[7] And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
[8] I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
[9] Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
[12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
[13] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Tell me/us, Roughsoul1991, were any of the saints OF THE CHURCH IN PHILADELPHIA "raptured"?
Of course, they were NOT.
This portion of scripture has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any alleged pre-tribulation rapture.
When did the tribulation suddenly become an "hour"?
Everywhere in scripture, it is a period of 3 1/2 years, and NOT an "hour".
For example, we read:
"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. " (Daniel 7:25)
"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." (Daniel 12:7)
"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." (Revelation 12:14)
A "time" is one year, "times" are two years, and "the dividing of time" or "half a time" is half a year.
Add them all together, and we get 3 1/2 years...NOT an "hour".
Furthermore, in this same book of Revelation, we read:
"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." (Revelation 11:2)
"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." (Revelation 13:5)
"Forty and two months" is 3 1/2 years...NOT an "hour".
Further still, again, in this same book of Revelation, we read:
"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. " (Revelation 11:3)
"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." (Revelation 12:6)
"A thousand two hundred and threescore days" or 1260 days is 3 1/2 years...NOT an "hour".
With these REALITIES before us, who are you to contend that the great tribulation is here described as an "hour"?
It's nonsense.
Here is Revelation 3:10 IN CONTEXT:
Revelation chapter 3
[7] And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
[8] I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
[9] Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
[12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
[13] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Tell me/us, Roughsoul1991, were any of the saints OF THE CHURCH IN PHILADELPHIA "raptured"?
Of course, they were NOT.
This portion of scripture has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any alleged pre-tribulation rapture.
-
1
- Show all
Pre-tribber, here. = )
Just poppin in here for a minute to say, welcome to CC (and... just to let you know, you're not alone. lol)
I, too, have not found any arguments opposing "pre-trib" to hold water... (and that's based on over 45 years of studying the Subject and many discussions with numerous other viewpoints, none of which have presented anything convincing so as to persuade me to view it otherwise... tho, like you say of yourself, I too have been willing to be convinced otherwise, if scriptural evidence leads there... it's just that no argument has been presented that is persuasive to those ends
).I realize your OP is seeking a different direction, so I will bow out and let y'all carry on. Just wanted to say hey. = )
-
1
-
1
- Show all
That reference isn't meant to be thought of as 60 min:
Rev_17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
G5610
??´?a
ho¯ra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.
Total KJV occurrences: 108
Context will show whether it's a literal hour or a figurative hour. Since we already know the beast has 42 months to be in power, the hour here is figurative of 42 months ie: a period of time. This type of use of "hour" is found in many places in the bible.
It's like saying, "This is my hour to shine!" but just meaning, "This is my TIME to shine!" Not a limit to only 60 min.
Never said the saints who rose with Jesus was glorified. I said they were evidence and proof of what had occurred.
It is best to ask questions before assumptions.
I agree.
1. To love amongst us, to die, and to save us from sin and death.
2. On a horse to judge mankind and believers will also be with Him.
The rapture is us going to Jesus in the air or where Jesus is. We come to Him not the other way around.
First resurrection occurred with Christ This is our hope and assurance that He will do the same for us.
1) When our Lord was crucified on the Cross, and the Saints (Matthew 27:51-52). Same word for raised is used when speaking of Jesus's resurrection. Matt 20:19 and Matt 27:52 share the same word for raised up. You will not find any scriptures saying these saints died or was caught up to Heaven with Jesus Christ.
(2) The Church will be caught up.
(1 Thessalonians 4:16), (1 Corinthians 15:52).
(3) Those resurrected near the close of the seven years’ period of the tribulation are the multitude of believers who were led to the truth through the witness of the 144,000. Because they would not receive the mark of the beast in their hands and foreheads, they were martyred.
These do not happen at the same time obviously if you hold true to chronology.
Heresy is to the zealot while grace is to the humble.
I see no errors but I also see your beliefs in the lens of grace. I will not hold you to the flame but respect your views, protect your voice, and live to serve God and men.
It is best to ask questions before assumptions.
I agree.
1. To love amongst us, to die, and to save us from sin and death.
2. On a horse to judge mankind and believers will also be with Him.
The rapture is us going to Jesus in the air or where Jesus is. We come to Him not the other way around.
First resurrection occurred with Christ This is our hope and assurance that He will do the same for us.
1) When our Lord was crucified on the Cross, and the Saints (Matthew 27:51-52). Same word for raised is used when speaking of Jesus's resurrection. Matt 20:19 and Matt 27:52 share the same word for raised up. You will not find any scriptures saying these saints died or was caught up to Heaven with Jesus Christ.
(2) The Church will be caught up.
(1 Thessalonians 4:16), (1 Corinthians 15:52).
(3) Those resurrected near the close of the seven years’ period of the tribulation are the multitude of believers who were led to the truth through the witness of the 144,000. Because they would not receive the mark of the beast in their hands and foreheads, they were martyred.
These do not happen at the same time obviously if you hold true to chronology.
Heresy is to the zealot while grace is to the humble.
I see no errors but I also see your beliefs in the lens of grace. I will not hold you to the flame but respect your views, protect your voice, and live to serve God and men.