Is it LAWFUL to kill animals?

[posthuman]

Do you believe Noah feasted upon dead corpses? That he ate the body of death and lived off of death, as in death sustaining him? Or not? I think you do.

not knocking vegetarianism at all here -- i totally respect it

but isn't salad the dead corpses of erstwhile living plants?

 

[Dino246]

Magenta said:
You are a fool

You are a liar.

You manipulated Magenta's words. She did NOT say "You are a fool".

You owe her an apology, and you need to repent of your sin.

 

[DanielLL]

but isn't salad the dead corpses of erstwhile living plants?

Plants don't have dead corpses, because the life is in the blood, and the plants don't have blood, and don't bleed. So when I eat a plant, no blood was shed, no life was lost. But when you eat a dead corpse, blood had to be shed, and life had to be lost. So while I live off of the life of the plants, you live off of the death of the animals.

You are a liar.

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

 

[DanielLL]

You manipulated Magenta's words. She did NOT say "You are a fool".

Why would she capitalize the "Y" if the "If" was there before?

I did edit what I said but the IF was there before and after.

 

[presidente]

No, the killing of animals is unlawful, and not the Will of the Father.

The commandment: "Thou shalt not commit adultery." not only prohibits humans from commiting adultery with humans, but it also prohibits bestiality. So, in like manner, the commandment: " Thou shalt not kill." not only prohibits the killing of humans, but it also prohibits the killing of animals. The commandments are not just talking about humans. That is why both bestiality and the killing of animals are unlawful.

I want to give an answer to this like they used to say when I was in middle school.

"Duh!!"

Your argument just comes off as rather dumb and lazy. You assume words mean stuff. There is no reason to think killing animals is murder. Clearly it is allowed to kill animals for certain purposes. The Bible is very specific. The Old Testament allowed for slaying humans for certain reasons in certain prescribed ways-- execution for breaking certain laws, and slaying in battle.

Humans are allowed to kill animals for food, but we must pour out the life blood and not eat it.

And the Bible does not call sex with animals 'adultery.' It does not make that point. Leviticus 18 specifically forbids both male and female from lying with an animal carnally, in addition to forbidding uncovering the nakedness of one's neighbor's wife. These were listed among a long list of sins for which Gentiles were driven from the land. What happens if someone did? If this happened in Israel they were supposed to slay both the human and the animal. Uh-oh.

God also required Israelites to slay animals for sacrifice.

Jesus ate fish.

-The killing of an ox is equated to murder, both are abominations:

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Don't you think there should be some connection between the words on the page and the point you are trying to make?

In Isaiah, one of the themes was that God was displeased with Israel's fasting, religious observances, etc. because of the injustice in the land. God doesn't like hypocrisy. The issue wasn't God being against ordinances that He put in place. But He did not like to see people engaging in them then mistreating their brethren, worshipping idols, etc.

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Is an animal your brother? If your brother is hungry, you could slay the fatted calf, prepare it, and feed him.

-And food is not an excuse for murder, because the Father gave us the herbs and fruit for food, not animals:

Genesis 1:29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.

Are you trying to deceive or have you just read a few verses? Are you just pretending like you treat the Bible as authoritative to get people to recruit to vegetarianism? Or have you just read a few verses of the Bible?

Genesis 9
3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. 5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

(NKJV)

Yes, God gave man herbs to eat, but then he gave animals. Israelites were commanded to eat lamb or goat at least once a year.

-There is also the abomination which the Lord hates: shedding the innocent blood of the animals:

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

You added 'of animals.'

I don't think we should kill animals for no reason. I do have a question. If a mosquito bites you on the neck, do you smack it, or do you let it suck your blood out and fly away? How about if a tick bites you, or some chiggers?

 

[posthuman]

Plants don't have dead corpses, because the life is in the blood, and the plants don't have blood, and don't bleed. So when I eat a plant, no blood was shed, no life was lost. But when you eat a dead corpse, blood had to be shed, and life had to be lost. So while I live off of the life of the plants, you live off of the death of the animals.

And he said, “Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”​

So He said to him, “Take Me, a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.”
Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
(Genesis 15:8-11)
​

do you believe in resurrection?
what happened when God passed between the divided animals?

When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?”
So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence.
(Luke 24:40-43)
​

why does Jesus eat this fish?
because it is an evil sinful fish deserving death?

why does God require blood?
why does Jesus, in Whom there is no sin, lay down His life, shedding His blood?
why is that acceptable?
why is it not abominable - why does the world find it abominable?

 

[DanielLL]

All I see from you is disjointed verses void of context.

Joint them for me, then. And tell me the context of these:

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.


Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Hosea 8:12 I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.
13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the Lord accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.

Jeremiah 7:5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.

-Comfirmed by Jesus:

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

 

[posthuman]

Yes, the law of Moses commands blood sacrifice, but the Law of God condemns it. You choose whom ye will serve.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

hard to interpret your post here as anything other than you rejecting the OT as false.
that is your argument, is it not?
you are saying that a great deal of the Bible is lies?

 

[Isaskar]

Yes it is. Animals are animals, God had no trouble drowning all the animals for doing nothing during the Noah's flood. /end thread

 

[posthuman]

-Comfirmed by Jesus:

Jesus confirms that the books of Moses are accurate:

Then Jesus put out His hand and touched him, saying, “I am willing; be cleansed.” Immediately his leprosy was cleansed.​

And Jesus said to him, “See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.”​

(Matthew 8:3-4) ​

what is the gift Moses commanded for a cleansed leper? why, it's Leviticus 14.
it involves the ashes of an red heifer - one animal slain at the command of God.
it involves two birds, one to be killed over running water - at the command of God.
it involves two male lambs as a sin offering and a burnt offering - both slain at the command of God.
it involves two turtledoves or young pigeons as sin & burnt offerings - both slain at the command of God.

so for every leper Jesus cleansed Jesus commanded them to go to the priests and complete the things described in the law.
no one had ever been cured of leprosy but Naaman the Syrian before this.
each of the lepers Jesus cleansed required the deaths of 3 birds and 2 lambs - along with some of the ashes of the red heifer who was slain for all of them.

that is a lot of animal death that God Himself manifest in flesh commands.

Yes, the law of Moses commands blood sacrifice, but the Law of God condemns it. You choose whom ye will serve.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

friend, your position is calling Jesus Christ an abominable murderer and a liar.
i am quite sure you are quite wrong. you are not interpreting scripture correctly.

the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, ​

“This shall be the law of the leper for the day of his cleansing: ..."​

(Leviticus 14:1-2) ​

Leviticus 14 is the word of God, not the tradition of men.

 

[DanielLL]

execution for breaking certain laws, and slaying in battle.

Jesus rebuked an eye for an eye, you choose whom ye will serve:

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

-He said: "Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone". He was without sin, and He didn't stone her. So, He is clearly against murder, even of the guilty. He delights not in the death of the wicked. He came so you may have life.

Humans are allowed to kill animals for food

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man [...]

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Is an animal your brother? If your brother is hungry, you could slay the fatted calf, prepare it, and feed him.

Yes, animals are your our brothers of the same Father, made by the same Hand, out of the same dust, with the same Breath of Life:

Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

-This is why killing an ox is just like killing a man, both are your brother of the same Father:

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

you are saying that a great deal of the Bible is lies?

The Word, cannot lie, whosoever lies has not seen Him neither known Him. So the lie is of the wicked one, who is a liar, and the father of it. You have to choose whom will ye serve.

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

-You can guess what the disobedient children of Israel did next, right?

Ezekiel 5:6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us’? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.

Malachi 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

God had no trouble drowning all the animals for doing nothing during the Noah's flood.

All flesh that was corrupted perished, but righteous Noah and his sons, were saved. The problem is not the death of the wicked, the wicked has earned his wages. The problem is when innocent blood is shed, innocent blood cries for justice, and God is Most Just, so He had to avenge the innocent blood, of righteous Abel to Zachariah, and the blood of the saints which were beheded for the witness of Jesus.

 

[tourist]

Yes, it has to do with innocence or guilt, because if the animal is innocent, God cannot shed his innocent blood, but if the animal is guilty, God can Righteously Judge, and reward him with death.

Are fish innocent blood? God indeed shed his innocent blood as Jesus died on the cross for our sins. The OT is full of animal sacrifices, because, as you have correctly stated, their blood was innocent. Your position on this is scripturally and spiritually unsound. Even from a secular standpoint it makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Sipsey]

Joint them for me, then. And tell me the context of these:

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.


Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Hosea 8:12 I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.
13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the Lord accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.

Jeremiah 7:5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.

-Comfirmed by Jesus:

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

You have been welcomed to this site from a multitude of individuals. They read your assertions and politely refuted your disjointed conclusions based on sloppy exegesis. You have rejected every ones responses and simply doubled down on your false teaching.

At this point you are unreachable, unteachable and certainly should not make a claim to be one. Unless you wake up and get a better understanding of who God is and what He expects from us, your future looks rather dim.

You may have gone through terrible suffering up to this point in life, but the only way to turn the sufferings of this life to blessings, is to humble yourself before the Lord, not by proclaiming only you know what God desires, and the Bible needs special interpretation from you.

You write that you are “Unsure” of your spiritual status. I’m afraid making unorthodox, personal translations from Scripture will not help. There is nothing new under the sun, and that goes for people getting distracted by their mortality.

My Grandson has a better concept of God than all the numerous postings you’ve made. I wish you well and will pray for you.

 

[DanielLL]

God indeed shed his innocent blood as Jesus died on the cross for our sins.

God didn't shed innocent blood, the priests and pharisees did, Judas betrayed innocent blood, and you know how he ended up, same thing with "spoiling" innocent blood:

Isaiah 33:1 Woe to thee that spoilest, and thou wast not spoiled; and dealest treacherously, and they dealt not treacherously with thee! when thou shalt cease to spoil, thou shalt be spoiled; and when thou shalt make an end to deal treacherously, they shall deal treacherously with thee.

Shedding innocent blood is an abomination
God cannot comit abominations
So, God cannot shed innocent blood

false teaching

I gave you over a dozen verses, not sure how you can call them "false teaching". Because I have asked you for you to "joint" them for me, and to give me context on them, and you have failed miserably at this task. I think you didn't even attempt to. Not a singular verse was adressed by you. You need to do better than that.

 

[posthuman]

The Word, cannot lie, whosoever lies has not seen Him neither known Him. So the lie is of the wicked one, who is a liar, and the father of it. You have to choose whom will ye serve.

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

-You can guess what the disobedient children of Israel did next, right?

why don't you just plainly state whether it's your position that men corrupted Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy and added everything in scripture that has anything to do with the death of any animal?

because we know the scripture is true. we know these things are accurate, and speak of Christ - Whose innocent blood was also shed.

you are tacitly saying the scripture is full of lies and you want to reject most of it.
if that is really your position, i will have a great deal more respect for you - even while i continue to disagree - if you just come out and say it.

as it stands, your arguments have no weight with anyone here because everyone here accepts the scripture as inspired, and scripture absolutely disagrees with your main position on this topic.

we're not going to move forward with this while you beat around the bush. we'll be in the same loop as we are stuck in now; that we believe scripture, you isolated a handful of verses, many more have been brought out showing your interpretation of them is wrong.
you keep repeating those, and you are not convincing anyone, because we all know that the whole scripture contradicts your position.

so if the real issue at hand is that you reject half the Bible, that is the issue we need to talk about.
no sense going around in circles; let's cut to the heart.

 

[TheLearner]

Think about it. Only two of each animal were saved in the ark. Noah most definitely didn't feast upon their corpses, like a barbarian, or else he would've extinguish the species. Which means Noah, without a doubt, only ate herbs and fruits during the flood. Furthermore, the animals themselves, couldn't kill each other, or else the specie would be extinct, so they ate straw like a lion who's full of the knowledge of the Lord. And even after the flood, they need time to multiply, so, depending on the animal, there is at least a year or two before Noah can offer beasts on the altar. But why should he? He has been eating herbs and fruits up until now, and so have the animals, so why should he kill, hurt or destroy in His Holy Mountain?

-I reject those so called "jewish" quotes, the same way they rejected Messiah. So, if you want to discuss with me, discuss on the Word.
And this is the Word, in case you didn't saw it:

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Malachi 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Jeremiah 7:5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

Isaiah 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.

Killing an animal is not murder. You are funny friend. Historical Context Matters.


Genesis 7

Easy-to-Read Version



The Flood Begins
7 Then the Lord said to Noah, “I have seen that you are a good man, even among the evil people of this time. So gather your family, and all of you go into the boat. 2 Get seven pairs (seven males and seven females) of every kind of clean animal. And get one pair (one male and one female) of every other animal on the earth. Lead all these animals into the boat with you.

 

[TheLearner]

Think

I am not wasting time on all your misquotes since, I know you do not read or quote from context. Let's look at your first lack of understanding of the text. It is clear from the context, they were to kill destroy everything even the animals. The fact that God commanded them to kill those animals completly disproves your thesis. Animals were not created in the image of God, thus the murder texts are irrelavant. The prophet is chewing them out for dis-obedence.


1 Samuel 15
New International Version
The Lord Rejects Saul as King
15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.

7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

10 Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel: 11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the Lord all that night.

12 Early in the morning Samuel got up and went to meet Saul, but he was told, “Saul has gone to Carmel. There he has set up a monument in his own honor and has turned and gone on down to Gilgal.”

13 When Samuel reached him, Saul said, “The Lord bless you! I have carried out the Lord’s instructions.”

14 But Samuel said, “What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?”

15 Saul answered, “The soldiers brought them from the Amalekites; they spared the best of the sheep and cattle to sacrifice to the Lord your God, but we totally destroyed the rest.”

16 “Enough!” Samuel said to Saul. “Let me tell you what the Lord said to me last night.”

“Tell me,” Saul replied.

17 Samuel said, “Although you were once small in your own eyes, did you not become the head of the tribes of Israel? The Lord anointed you king over Israel. 18 And he sent you on a mission, saying, ‘Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; wage war against them until you have wiped them out.’ 19 Why did you not obey the Lord? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the Lord?”

20 “But I did obey the Lord,” Saul said. “I went on the mission the Lord assigned me. I completely destroyed the Amalekites and brought back Agag their king. 21 The soldiers took sheep and cattle from the plunder, the best of what was devoted to God, in order to sacrifice them to the Lord your God at Gilgal.”

22 But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

24 Then Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned. I violated the Lord’s command and your instructions. I was afraid of the men and so I gave in to them. 25 Now I beg you, forgive my sin and come back with me, so that I may worship the Lord.”

26 But Samuel said to him, “I will not go back with you. You have rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected you as king over Israel!”

27 As Samuel turned to leave, Saul caught hold of the hem of his robe, and it tore. 28 Samuel said to him, “The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to one of your neighbors—to one better than you. 29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”

30 Saul replied, “I have sinned. But please honor me before the elders of my people and before Israel; come back with me, so that I may worship the Lord your God.” 31 So Samuel went back with Saul, and Saul worshiped the Lord.

32 Then Samuel said, “Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites.”

Agag came to him in chains.[c] And he thought, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.”

33 But Samuel said,

“As your sword has made women childless,
so will your mother be childless among women.”

And Samuel put Agag to death before the Lord at Gilgal.

34 Then Samuel left for Ramah, but Saul went up to his home in Gibeah of Saul. 35 Until the day Samuel died, he did not go to see Saul again, though Samuel mourned for him. And the Lord regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel.

Footnotes
1 Samuel 15:3 The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the Lord, often by totally destroying them; also in verses 8, 9, 15, 18, 20 and 21.
1 Samuel 15:9 Or the grown bulls; the meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain.
1 Samuel 15:32 The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain.
1 Samuel 14

 

[presidente]

Yes, My Church is the Body of Christ, and our Teacher is Messiah.

Pilgrimshope
He is against all blood sacrifices. He hates hands that shed any innocent blood of any creature, lame or blind:

I have a question for you? Do you really care about God or the Bible, or is protecting animal rights what is really important to you and you are intentionally cherry picking scriptures from the Bible to support your goal? You either seem not to understand what you are reading or to be intentionally misusing it. Maybe you pick and choose the parts that fit with your animal-rights ideology and reject the rest.

Either way, pleasing God should be more important to you than this other agenda you have. If you do not see how God could command animal sacrifices because it goes against your sense of justice, you should realize that you have an imperfect sense of justice. You need to humble yourself and submit to the Lord.

Jeremiah 7:5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

If I can read between the lines here, I am guessing you assume that the innocent blood he is talking about is animal blood. Well, read the Bible. There was a lot of shedding of innocent blood-- the blood of prophets. King Manasseh spilled a lot of innocent blood. Most of us who have actually read the Bible with some level of understanding here on this forum look at that verse above and know that the Israelites had shed innocent human blood (or some of them had) and had committed other sins, and whether it was because of collective or individual guilt, God had displeasure with their animal sacrifices because of the way they treated one another.

Think about what Jesus said, to leave your gift at the altar and be reconciled to your brother. Animal sacrifices was one of the kinds of things offered in the temple. If someone wanted to offer an animal sacrifice, and had sinned against his brother, he should reconcile with his brother first, then offer the animal sacrifice. Or if someone had a grain offering, he should do the same.

The point of these verses you are fixated on is not that animal sacrifice was wrong. It served its purpose. If you read in the Old Testament, Yahweh commanded them. But He was displeased to see hypocritical people committing major sins of injustice, then going through religious rituals before God. We read passages where such sacrifices were displeasing to Him. You are re-interpreting passages like this your own way to make it to mean animal sacrifices were never commanded.

Jesus is also a sacrifice for our sins-- a propitiation as the KJV puts it in the book of Romans. He shed His blood.

-The "corrupted" blood sacrifices, of corrupted animals, are also rejected, because "Thou shalt not kill". It is against the Law of God:

'Kill' in King James era English more or less meant 'murder'. 'Slay' meant 'kill.' They did have the word 'murder' back then, but we see 'kill' quite often. Nowadays, 'slay' is old fashioned.

In the Old Testament, there were times when Israelites were supposed to slay other human beings, certain times of warfare or if the other human being had committed a capital crime. Slaying animals for food was allowed. They could be guilty of blood if they drank or ate the blood. That's the issue with animals.

Eating animal flesh was actually commanded. The priests ate sacrifices. The Israelites were commanded to eat the Passover lamb. Killing deer for food is specifically allowed in the Old Testament.

You aren't going to be able to trick Christians who study the Bible with your line of reasoning. And if you are self-deceived, I would encourage you to meditate on whether your animal rights philosophy is more important to you than God.

If you don't want to eat animals, that's fine.

But you should realize that when the LORD appeared to Abraham, at the oaks of Mamre, Abraham slaughtered a fatted calf to eat with the three visitors. I don't know if the calf was as cute as the one in your photo or if he slaughtered a fierce looking one, but if he had more than one, I am pretty sure he slaughtered the one that he thought was best.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Do you think wine was forbidden too? Do you think wine is like pig's blood?

Their soul delighted in abominations, so their sacrifices were displeasing to God. But when Noah, Abraham or Job, men considered just or upright (or to whom it was imputed as we see in Abraham's case), offered sacrifices, we do not see this kind of reaction from God.

Genesis 8

20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Cooked beef might smell the same to you or me, but the Lord also knew the heart of the person who offered the sacrifice.

The book of Hebrews tells us that it was by faith that Abel offered a better sacrifice than Cain. God could see Abel's faith. But what did Abel offer?

Genesis 4
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

 

[posthuman]

Think about it. Only two of each animal were saved in the ark. Noah most definitely didn't feast upon their corpses, like a barbarian, or else he would've extinguish the species. Which means Noah, without a doubt, only ate herbs and fruits during the flood. Furthermore, the animals themselves, couldn't kill each other, or else the specie would be extinct, so they ate straw like a lion who's full of the knowledge of the Lord. And even after the flood, they need time to multiply, so, depending on the animal, there is at least a year or two before Noah can offer beasts on the altar. But why should he? He has been eating herbs and fruits up until now, and so have the animals, so why should he kill, hurt or destroy in His Holy Mountain?

if you actually read Genesis you see that yes, Noah was eating only vegetables, but after the flood God Himself gave Noah all creatures as food. it is explicitly stated.
surely you are not unaware of this -- it's been posted. so the only conclusion i can draw is that you reject the scripture as it's written, and re-write it according to your own desires and thinking.


instead of calling God's word a bunch of lies, i think what you should be doing is trying to figure out why God allows the deaths - even the intentional deaths - of the other living souls called animals.
that is the big question here. you are not going to be able to find the answer to this while you stay on your present course. you don't have any business quoting the Bible at all if your position is that the Bible is not true -- your thread essentially does not belong in 'Bible discussion' while you reject the Bible itself.

so long as you actively deny the Bible and/or claim it is full of corruption & untrustworthy, this is ultimately a conspiracy theory, not a Bible study. if you are writing your own version of the Bible, deleting everything you don't like, then your own private bible is the text to be considered, not the actual Word of God.

we're not going to get anywhere with this conversation while you only believe half the Bible and we all believe all of it, and we are under the impression you also do. therefore for the sake of some good coming out your topic at all, please come out and tell us openly which parts of the scripture you reject and which parts you accept, so we can have your conspiracy discussion?

clearly you reject the Torah. what else?

 

[DanielLL]

why don't you just plainly state whether it's your position that men corrupted Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy and added everything in scripture that has anything to do with the death of any animal?

I don't so you don't focus on my words, but rather focus on His Word, that is the verses I showed you. And so you don't say things like:

you are tacitly saying the scripture is full of lies and you want to reject most of it.

Because I didn't saying anything of sorts, I said the Word cannot lie. It is the verses I presented you with, that say that.

if you just come out and say it.

They'll cut my tongue.

we all know that the whole scripture contradicts your position.

Scripture cannot contradict Scripture. So if your verses contradicts my verses on blood sacrifice, then one has to give, because they can't both be Scripture. That is why I've been telling you, you need to choose whom will ye serve, which voice will you hear?