Is it LAWFUL to kill animals?

[posthuman]

In the Bible it seems this is the first and only time that Abel and Cain made an offering to God since Cain becomes angry that his sacrifice was not respected and he hated Abel for being good, and therefore he slays Abel.

clearly the last time Abel did this, and it certainly seems like possibly the last time Cain did this - though God says 'if you do well' which indicates that there was an expectation that it would continue.
'if you do well' also gives the tacit indication that Cain knew what was supposed to be done, but wasn't doing it. this implies either previous instruction in the process or previous experience or both.

The chapter opens up with Eve bearing Cain and then bearing Abel. So, "in the process of time" means that they grew up from babies into men.

however 'in the process of time' is not attached to the account of their birth; it is attached to their offering. their birth is v.1, their vocations is v.2, and their offering is v.3 -- therefore 'in the process of time' is more closely related by proximity to their vocations than it is to their birth -- but it is directly describing the day of their offering.

it is an interesting phrase, literally, "at the end of days" -- as though there was a set time, and they had waited for it, and then proceeded it.
time on earth is cyclical; God appointed the sun and moon as clocks for us to keep and observe time, and they are cyclical. the mention of a time occurring 'at the end of days' indicates that there was an accounting of days, and an accounting of days in a cyclically measured timespan.. well, you know -- just like the Mosaic law, the feasts occur yearly, on appointed days.

just a coincidence?

This chapter comes after Genesis 3 because this is simply what happened next. The only connection with Genesis 3 is at the beginning of chapter 4, detailing how Adam and Eve begat Cain and then Abel. Genesis as a book tells us about the Beginnings of everything, hence the title. A lot of firsts in the book of Genesis and it will set the foundation for the entire rest of both the Bible as a book and the reality that we live in today.

oh?
does Genesis seem like simply a documentary of sequential disconnected events to you?
none of this stuff is in any way related?
is that typical of God's book?


hmm.

 

[posthuman]

Sometimes you have to trust your faith more than your eyes. Because if you had truly believed shedding innocent blood is an abomination, then it would follow that Jesus cannot shed innocent blood, because He cannot sin.

so you're saying the fish Christ was cooking for breakfast in John 21 were sinful fish, therefore it was OK to kill & eat them?

interesting.

how do i know if a fish is sinful or not? how can i tell the difference?
ask them if they believe in Christ? or...

hmm

 

[posthuman]

If you believe Abel was righteous, then ir follows he didn't shed innocent blood. However, Cain was a murderer, so you may have the sacrifices confused, if you get what I'm saying..

so you're saying the lamb Abel slaughtered was a sinful lamb?

that's the acceptable sacrifice in this situation? sinful lambs with tainted blood?

hmm..

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

• in Genesis 9:1-3 it is strongly implied that God had not given animals as food until that point
  • it may be the case that men did so anyway, but that would make such men at that time, wicked
  • therefore if Abel was doing this while in the first generation of man outside the garden, Abel is being wicked
    • would God regard the abominable sacrifice of the wicked?
• what makes a lamb valuable to Abel?
  • food?
    • the narrative of Genesis strongly suggests, no
  • clothing?
    • one single adult sheep produces as much as 30 pounds of wool, annually
    • Abel has at least 3 sheep: the parents of the lamb he offered, and that lamb
    • Abel has access to 50 or 60lbs of wool per year, at minimum - likely far more
    • how big is Abel's wardrobe?
• is the produce of the field, which the narrative very strongly suggests is their only food, of little or no value?
  • per Genesis 3 this takes much labor to produce
  • how much labor is involved in keeping sheep in the first generation outside paradise?
  • which of the two offerings represents the most actual labor performed by the two brothers?
    • which represents the bigger tangible loss to their basic physical needs ((food, shelter, clothing))?

I am aware that some people assume based on Genesis 9 that meat was not eaten before, but it's only an assumption. One might also point out that God's blessings to Noah and his sons is right in line with what God already gave mankind when he created man in Genesis 1, which is in essence, that man has dominion over all the creation. We know for a fact that Abel was not wicked because we are told God had favor for his sacrifice right in Genesis. Also this episode is expounded on by Paul also later on in the Bible which also confirms Abel is not wicked, nor is his action wicked, but rather a great show of faith.

The value of the lamb is immense to Abel both for the reasons that you give, but also many reasons besides this. Even in today's time the goodliest of a flock is highly valued for say breeding purposes. It is also the firstling of his flock too which is very significant also. Abel has a whole flock, these are his possessions. He is giving up, literally sacrificing, the very best of his earthly possessions to God. Beyond the worldly show of it, it is a show of immense faith.

Whether it takes more work or not is irrelevant to God. Cain offers the plants, and for sure later in the Law there are sacrifices that are made of plant material, but it is the spirit of the sacrifice that is important here. Cain offered the plants he had grown, but Abel offered his most prized possession. God did not hate Cain for his sacrifice, but he just did not have respect to it. God had respect to Abel's sacrifice because it is a more genuine and excellent sacrifice, Abel is giving an offering to God not just of his labor, but of the very best thing that he owns, which again, shows tremendous faith in God.

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

Has not the same Father made out of the same dust, both the animals and your childreen, who also serve you? And don't they have the same Breath of Life, which both received from the same Father?

What is the sin of the lamb? Why don't they constitute innocent blood? What does then?
And just because you have dominion over the animals doesn't mean you can kill them, you also have dominion over your children.

You can't have righteous shedding of innocent blood, it is not compatible:

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Isaiah 59:7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.

2 Kings 24:4 And also for the innocent blood that he shed: for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the Lord would not pardon.

Indeed the Father made all creation, but only one creation bears the image of God and was given dominion over the other creations by God.

The lamb made no sin, it is a mere possession of the righteous man Abel, this is why its blood does not constitute innocent blood, but rather, a most acceptable sacrifice to the Lord God, and a show of great faith in God by Abel.

As for your quotes. Israel had taken the sacrificial system which God instructed them about for the remission of sins and perverted it to use it as a license to sin rather, making the whole point of their sacrifices pointless. They had degenerated into the superficiality of ritual and forgot about the deeper spiritual meanings of it. It is not that God is displeased with them for killing animals, it is that God was displeased with them for disobeying him and using the sacrifice system and going to church as an excuse to continue living in adultery and idolatry. Therefore, by the mouths of the prophets God told them he would not regard their feigned sacrifices nor regard their church attendance, and even furthermore promised to destroy their kingdom, their temple, their animals, and their people, and take them all away. You cannot fool or cheat God is the ultimate lesson here.

 

[posthuman]

I am aware that some people assume based on Genesis 9 that meat was not eaten before, but it's only an assumption. One might also point out that God's blessings to Noah and his sons is right in line with what God already gave mankind when he created man in Genesis 1, which is in essence, that man has dominion over all the creation. We know for a fact that Abel was not wicked because we are told God had favor for his sacrifice right in Genesis. Also this episode is expounded on by Paul also later on in the Bible which also confirms Abel is not wicked, nor is his action wicked, but rather a great show of faith.

The value of the lamb is immense to Abel both for the reasons that you give, but also many reasons besides this. Even in today's time the goodliest of a flock is highly valued for say breeding purposes. It is also the firstling of his flock too which is very significant also. Abel has a whole flock, these are his possessions. He is giving up, literally sacrificing, the very best of his earthly possessions to God. Beyond the worldly show of it, it is a show of immense faith.

Whether it takes more work or not is irrelevant to God. Cain offers the plants, and for sure later in the Law there are sacrifices that are made of plant material, but it is the spirit of the sacrifice that is important here. Cain offered the plants he had grown, but Abel offered his most prized possession. God did not hate Cain for his sacrifice, but he just did not have respect to it. God had respect to Abel's sacrifice because it is a more genuine and excellent sacrifice, Abel is giving an offering to God not just of his labor, but of the very best thing that he owns, which again, shows tremendous faith in God.

i think that at the end of the day your narrative simply doesn't make sense. there are hundreds of questions it can't answer, and you have to tell me the Bible does not have narrative structure in order to justify it. i'll keep asking more of those questions..

but meanwhile there is a very simple explanation that answers all these questions and preserves the narrative complexity of scripture & the ubiquitous typology speaking of Christ which pervades all scripture. i'll go ahead and give it to you, briefly, so i am hiding nothing from you, but speaking as a friend:

Cain & Abel are commemorating the first shedding of innocent blood, when God made garments to cover Adam & Eve.
they do this yearly on a certain day - most likely a day that God later marked as one of His 7 feasts in the Mosaic law. the day of atonement or pascha are likely candidates.
for this they need sheep. they need to offer blood.

Abel tended sheep, not possessing them, but tending them. while Cain worked the soil, providing food.
so Cain was supposed to receive a lamb from the flock Abel watched over and present it as his offering.
Cain despised being dependent on someone else to provide a lamb. so he brought his own works, without blood.
Abel did well because he presented himself before God with the blood of the lamb.
Cain did not do well because he presented himself before God with his own efforts, despising the lamb.

Cain then hated the shepherd and sought to murder him rather than depend on him.

there's your picture of Christ, your picture of Satan, and your picture of salvation.
the scripture testifies of Christ ((John 5:39)) -- if we don't find Him in it, IMO we do not have the right interpretation.

 

[Magenta]

If you believe Abel was righteous, then it follows he didn't shed innocent blood. However,
Cain was a murderer, so you may have the sacrifices confused, if you get what I'm saying..

Cain was not a murderer until he slew Abel. Obviously their sacrificial offerings preceded that event.

And there is no record of any law regarding the killing of animals at that point.

 

[DanielLL]

therefore it was OK to kill & eat them?

No, Shedding innocent blood is wicked, Jesus cannot sin, so Jesus cannot shed innocent blood.

how do i know if a fish is sinful or not?

The way the Law works is they are all innocent until proven guilty.

so you're saying the lamb Abel slaughtered was a sinful lamb?

No, the lamb is innocent blood, Abel is righteous therefore, Abel cannot shed innocent blood.

the image of God

Because you bear the image of God, is yet another reason why you can't kill, because God is not a murderer.

its blood does not constitute innocent blood

Do you understand the animal has blood in it? Why is his blood not innocent, if you admit the "lamb made no sin"?

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

Because you bear the image of God, is yet another reason why you can't kill, because God is not a murderer.

Do you understand the animal has blood in it? Why is his blood not innocent, if you admit the "lamb made no sin"?

Because the animal is just a possession of the man, Abel. It is not unlawful for Abel to do what he wants with his possession. Above this, we know also that God had favor to Abel's sacrifice, and we know Abel's sacrifice is a show of great faith in God.

 

[DanielLL]

Cain was not a murderer until he slew Abel.

Genesis 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

-His anger was enough for him to be considered a murderer, even before he slew him, the same way if you look at a women with lust, you commit adultery already in your heart:

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Also, I know you reject anything outside the "canon", but if you had read the Book of Adam and Eve, you will see there is hatred and premeditation, long before he actually slew his brother.

 

[Magenta]

Genesis 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

-His anger was enough for him to be considered a murderer, even before he slew him, the same way if you look at a women with lust, you commit adultery already in your heart:

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Also, I know you reject anything outside the "canon", but if you had read the Book of Adam and Eve, you will see there is hatred and premeditation, long before he actually slew his brother.

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not
charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Romans 5:13

 

[posthuman]

No, the lamb is innocent blood, Abel is righteous therefore, Abel cannot shed innocent blood.

if Abel does not shed the blood of the lamb he offers, who does?
you know of a way to remove the fat from an animal without shedding its blood?
pretty sure that's nonsensical.

 

[DanielLL]

It is not unlawful for Abel to do what he wants with his possession.

Just because they are your possession doesn't mean you can kill them, because your children are also your possession, and that doesn't mean you can kill them. Also, just because the lamb was his possession doesn't make his innocent blood disapear out of his veins, the innocent blood is still there.

we know also that God had favor to Abel's sacrifice

If God had favor on Abel's sacrifice, it proves it wasn't a blood sacrifice, because God delights not in the blood of lambs:

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

There were no laws at that time.

Why was Cain condemned as a murderer by God, if murder wasn't forbiden by Him?

Jesus is the Way, or the Law, and He has always existed since the beggining, and He was always the same:

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

if Abel does not kill shed the blood of the lamb he offers, who does?

Cain, who was of the wicked one, a murderer since the beginning.

 

[Magenta]

The way the Law works is they are all innocent until proven guilty.

How does one prove a fish innocent or guilty? Under what laws are they?

 

[posthuman]

Above this, we know also that God had favor to Abel's sacrifice, and we know Abel's sacrifice is a show of great faith in God.

and we know the sacrifices are shadows, & Christ the substance

how is Abel's sacrifice a picture of Christ, and how is Cain's a picture of antichrist?
this seems to me to be one of the most important things for us to draw from it.

 

[posthuman]

If God had favor on Abel's sacrifice, it proves it wasn't a blood sacrifice

hang on their friend.

have you read Leviticus?

 

[posthuman]

if Abel does not shed the blood of the lamb he offers, who does?

Cain, who was of the wicked one, a murderer since the beginning.

the Bible happens to say it's Abel who brought the lamb, and its fat.

do you also think it was Satan who took the skins of the lamb God made garments for Adam & Eve with?
God just kinda recycled them?

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

and we know the sacrifices are shadows, & Christ the substance

how is Abel's sacrifice a picture of Christ, and how is Cain's a picture of antichrist?
this seems to me to be one of the most important things for us to draw from it.

I don't disagree that Abel's sacrifice of the firstborn Lamb is indeed a foreshadow of Jesus, but for sake of not digressing too far from the topic I am focusing here on the event itself, the nature of Abel, and how God viewed Abel and the sacrifice as it pertains to the sinfulness or sinfulness of killing animals and/or eating meat.

 

[Magenta]

Why was Cain condemned as a murderer by God, if murder wasn't forbiden by Him?

Jesus is the Way, or the Law, and He has always existed since the beggining, and He was always the same:

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Where there is no law there is no transgression.

You disagree with Paul, then, as per above.

God's law demanded life for life on a conviction of murder. If Cain had been
condemned as you claim, God would have killed him. Instead, God punished
him for manslaughter, as evidenced by the protective mark given him.

 

[Magenta]

do you also think it was Satan who took the skins of the lamb God made garments for Adam & Eve with?
God just kinda recycled them?

DanieLL does decidedly lean toward saying God happened upon dead animals and used their skins to clothe Adam and Eve.

That is to say, he rejects the idea that God killed the animal/s, and therefore also rejects
the first foreshadowing of the shedding of Christ's blood for the remission of sin.