F I R M A M E N T U M
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It doesn't make the dot 2d nor 3d either.
It's the NKJV
Even if you eliminate context, a circle is still a circle:
a round plane figure whose boundary (the circumference) consists of points equidistant from a fixed point (the centre).
"draw a circle with a compass"
I think you just weren't given to understand it. Here I am explaining what a circle is to grown adults, it is just like He said, they are hidden from the wise and prudent and are revealed to babes.
And I have stated at least twice, that would be the equator, the circumference. A line, not the surface.
There are seven heavens, the birds fly on the "open firmament" not the firmament.
It's the NKJV
Even if you eliminate context, a circle is still a circle:
a round plane figure whose boundary (the circumference) consists of points equidistant from a fixed point (the centre).
"draw a circle with a compass"
I think you just weren't given to understand it. Here I am explaining what a circle is to grown adults, it is just like He said, they are hidden from the wise and prudent and are revealed to babes.
And I have stated at least twice, that would be the equator, the circumference. A line, not the surface.
There are seven heavens, the birds fly on the "open firmament" not the firmament.
I have never argued anything to the contrary.
Wow, you are full of yourself.
The equator is only one of an infinite number of lines of circumference. You have not demonstrated that you understand the simple fact that there can be circles on the surface of a sphere that are not circumferential.
Chapter and verse, please.
Not in the NKJV, they don't. In Genesis 1:20, it says, "and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”
So, if we follow your "logic" and require from you consistency of meaning, birds only fly across a two-dimensional surface, never in three dimensions. That's utterly ridiculous.
Wow, you are full of yourself.
The equator is only one of an infinite number of lines of circumference. You have not demonstrated that you understand the simple fact that there can be circles on the surface of a sphere that are not circumferential.
Chapter and verse, please.
Not in the NKJV, they don't. In Genesis 1:20, it says, "and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”
So, if we follow your "logic" and require from you consistency of meaning, birds only fly across a two-dimensional surface, never in three dimensions. That's utterly ridiculous.
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scripture doesn't say 'the earth is a circle' -- don't add to it, eh?
let's review:
this whole side-conversation is sparked by your mention of scripture saying He drew a circle on the face of the deep. ((Prov. 8))
you presumed 'circle' has to be 2d ((wrong)) and then you said because a circle was drawn on the deep, the deep has to be the same dimension as the circle ((very wrong))
so all these replies where you are like, a 1d dot doesn't make the surface it's drawn on also 1d?
you are proving my "point" ((get it??
))
you are proving your own argument was faulty.
because it it was your argument in the first place that a 2d circle ((faulty premise)) drawn on anything makes that anything also 2d. ((faulty conclusion))
that is not my argument - that's your own argument. my argument was proving the flaw in yours, and you are repeating my own proof as tho it refutes me. you are refuting yourself, friend.
¿comprendé?
i do suggest reaching out to someone for some help in logical argumentation. i'm probably not the best choice, but i'll open up a PM with you so we can talk about who can help
let's review:
this whole side-conversation is sparked by your mention of scripture saying He drew a circle on the face of the deep. ((Prov. 8))
you presumed 'circle' has to be 2d ((wrong)) and then you said because a circle was drawn on the deep, the deep has to be the same dimension as the circle ((very wrong))
so all these replies where you are like, a 1d dot doesn't make the surface it's drawn on also 1d?
you are proving my "point" ((get it??
))you are proving your own argument was faulty.
because it it was your argument in the first place that a 2d circle ((faulty premise)) drawn on anything makes that anything also 2d. ((faulty conclusion))
that is not my argument - that's your own argument. my argument was proving the flaw in yours, and you are repeating my own proof as tho it refutes me. you are refuting yourself, friend.
¿comprendé?
i do suggest reaching out to someone for some help in logical argumentation. i'm probably not the best choice, but i'll open up a PM with you so we can talk about who can help
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Here is the broader context of Proverbs 8:27 from the OP's selected NKJV:
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primal dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men.
The OP has assumed without any evidence to support it that "the deep" is something other than the earth, yet everything subsequent to verse 27 is discussing features of the earth. For example, verse 28 mentions "the clouds above"... above what? The deep.
Let's see what Genesis 1 says, again from the NKJV:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
There is no clear statement, "this is that", but from the wording, we can rationally derive that "the deep" is the primordial ocean. Nothing in the wording of either passage requires it to be flat (or spherical, for that matter).
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primal dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men.
The OP has assumed without any evidence to support it that "the deep" is something other than the earth, yet everything subsequent to verse 27 is discussing features of the earth. For example, verse 28 mentions "the clouds above"... above what? The deep.
Let's see what Genesis 1 says, again from the NKJV:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
There is no clear statement, "this is that", but from the wording, we can rationally derive that "the deep" is the primordial ocean. Nothing in the wording of either passage requires it to be flat (or spherical, for that matter).
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Further, as I have stated at least twice, one can draw a circle on the outer surface of a sphere. The planet-destroying superweapon on the Death Star (from Star Wars) is a perfect example, and although in this case the smaller circle is set obliquely, it corresponds in shape to one of the smaller lines of latitude on Earth...
excellent example bro
'that's no moon!'
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Well when he decides to come back online I am interested to see how he will fair against all that he is up against , he hasn't been doing well so far though to be honest the fact that his entire basis was based on mere interpretation of scripture imputing his own interpretation into the verses to try to make them say what he wanted them to say with no other evidence that showed they remotely said what he claimed they said he didn't have much to stand on to begin with
This is what happens when you take verses out of context and put your own interpretation into it we don't do this for a reason and this thread is a prime example of it the worst part is he is completely blind to his folly and no amount of reasoning can change his mind either plus the fact he does not understand math or science doesn't help. Lets just say the earth is indeed flat what is to keep the oceans from spilling over the edge? into the outer reaches of space? the land mass doesn't encompass the outter reaches of the planet all the way around so somewhere the ocean would spill over the edge and how come no one has ever found the edge of the earth even though we have airplaines and jets we have easy access with satalites that we can literally build from our own homes yes thats right if one has the brains we can and people have build satalites from our own houses they don't go into space but they go pretty darn high and can see super far and have a really strong radius
we have the technology to do what nasa does just not to that degree from our own houses and bunkers and people do and your telling me not one person has found this supposed edge of the earth?
This is what happens when you take verses out of context and put your own interpretation into it we don't do this for a reason and this thread is a prime example of it the worst part is he is completely blind to his folly and no amount of reasoning can change his mind either plus the fact he does not understand math or science doesn't help. Lets just say the earth is indeed flat what is to keep the oceans from spilling over the edge? into the outer reaches of space? the land mass doesn't encompass the outter reaches of the planet all the way around so somewhere the ocean would spill over the edge and how come no one has ever found the edge of the earth even though we have airplaines and jets we have easy access with satalites that we can literally build from our own homes yes thats right if one has the brains we can and people have build satalites from our own houses they don't go into space but they go pretty darn high and can see super far and have a really strong radius
we have the technology to do what nasa does just not to that degree from our own houses and bunkers and people do and your telling me not one person has found this supposed edge of the earth?
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Proverbs 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Psalm 104:9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
I am doing very well, The Word is Truth, and the witness of God is greater. You are the one who doesn't have a singular witness of a singular translation, of any verse in any language, to support your sphere. Only your own understanding, and not the Word. My circle is found on multiple translations, from Hebrew to English, on Strong's and on Lexicons. I have more than proved the earth is a flat circle, you just can't receive it. But maybe one day, you'll see it.
Psalm 104:9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
I am doing very well, The Word is Truth, and the witness of God is greater. You are the one who doesn't have a singular witness of a singular translation, of any verse in any language, to support your sphere. Only your own understanding, and not the Word. My circle is found on multiple translations, from Hebrew to English, on Strong's and on Lexicons. I have more than proved the earth is a flat circle, you just can't receive it. But maybe one day, you'll see it.
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I'm sorry but you must be joking you think you are doing very well? you have proven nothing the only thing you have proved is at best interpretations and imputed your own understanding of words by the way I got the response back from that rabbi when I explained the situation to him I asked him about the word chug and how I was to understand that while yes it does mean circle it also is used in the orignal text as meaning an orb or sphere or something round I ecplained that you were using scripture to try to prove the earth is flat this was his response
Yes, technically it can mean any round object. But that doesn't mean the world is flat. The Talmud uses a more specific term--"kadur"--which means "ball."
I hope this helps.
All the best,
Rabbi Eliezer Zalmanov
for Chabad.org so it seems we both wrong just in different ways I was wrong with the word it wasn't chug it was kadur you were wrong in pretty much every other
Yes, technically it can mean any round object. But that doesn't mean the world is flat. The Talmud uses a more specific term--"kadur"--which means "ball."
I hope this helps.
All the best,
Rabbi Eliezer Zalmanov
for Chabad.org so it seems we both wrong just in different ways I was wrong with the word it wasn't chug it was kadur you were wrong in pretty much every other
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adding our own understanding is adding to the word. for instance the circle issue the hebrew meaniing of it as it turns out can mean any round object as the rabbi I asked said in response to me even if that wasn't the case the response you got from your rabbi used words that relate to rotation having nothing to do with anything flat so the word circle in the scriptures is to be read not as something flat but as something to encircle therefore it is not saying the earth is flat but no you ignore this and keep adding to the word you then continue to use the scriptures while albiet in a very clever way to explain why the waters don't spill over the flat earth yet as stated before the scriptures say the word circle is to mean round or in your case to encircle if you refuse to accept my rabbis response.
You are a hypocrite
You are a hypocrite
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Remember the Word is chug, the Talmud is not the Word. Are you now going to convert to judaism and reject the Word for the Talmud, in order to keep your "ball"? Because that is what you have to do, if you want ball, In my Book it says circle. This is Bible discussion and we christians live by the Word, not the Talmud.
Call no man "rabbi", for One is your Rabbi, and He is Messiah. He disagrees with the comments on chabad.org.
Yes, I refuse the witness of men, because the Witness of God is greater. And the Word is: circle. If you want to change it to ball, that is up to you. I honestly can't believe you. Not when it goes against the Word. You would think God would preserve His word, if the translation was wrong, right? But He allowed the word circle to be translated, and that is what people have on their Bibles. And you have no Bible in any language that says ball on any verse the word chug is used, that is why you went to the Talmud, away from the Word.
Call no man "rabbi", for One is your Rabbi, and He is Messiah. He disagrees with the comments on chabad.org.
Yes, I refuse the witness of men, because the Witness of God is greater. And the Word is: circle. If you want to change it to ball, that is up to you. I honestly can't believe you. Not when it goes against the Word. You would think God would preserve His word, if the translation was wrong, right? But He allowed the word circle to be translated, and that is what people have on their Bibles. And you have no Bible in any language that says ball on any verse the word chug is used, that is why you went to the Talmud, away from the Word.
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So let me get this straight then, you go to this site and talk to a rabbi you get a response from him and show me his response to prove me wrong yet if I do the same and it just so happens to prove you wrong you say all of this? you are literally being a hypocrite in every sense of the word grow up.
And no I don't have to convert but I do know the word of God was originally written in the hebrew text so the meaning like I said opens up in a whole new way when you read it in that text. in this thread you have shown to be immature and childish you have made false accusations of me yes I haven't forgotten your lie about my sodomy source, you have attacked others used scripture to mock others andhave shown to not be able to handle being wrong or to be put in a postion where you don't know how to respond. You say you don't accept the testimony of men yet went to a rabbi when presented with the hebrew word for circeles meaning did you not? and did you not show me what he said when it fit your agenda? oh wait that is right it didn't really fit your agenda you assumed it did until i pointed out that none of what he said had anything to do with anything flat but that all he said had to do with rotation, and was it not you who originally wnet to that site to begin with?
Once again I proved you wrong and you act like a child except this time you show your true colors not a mere child but a hypocrite. I'm sorry that this debate is to much for you but I told you before I don't need to resort to scripture to disprove you I treasure his word and would never use it against anyone or simply use it just to prove someone wrong, I use scripture to teach uplift encourage build and strengthen his church to edify and help the body you however use it to prove yourself to attack and mock you cherry pick twist and imput your own interpretations to it you have no regard for his holy word and should be ashamed the bible warns about such things
2 Peter 3:16
As he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
Yet you who has no regard for his word continue to use it as a toy continue to treat it as a tool for your own agenda as if this was ever about the bible this was never about the bible or God's word this was never about the firmamentum it was about you wanting to prove the flat earth and you thought you would use God's word to do so and do you know why you do not see how you have mistreated and misused his word? because you lack not only the regard for his word but because you are not a student you have placed in your heart the mind of a teacher not a student therefore you are right in your own mind no matter what even if your wronig you are blind and ignorant you have lost the right to call yourself a student of the word the moment you forget the heart of a student
And no I don't have to convert but I do know the word of God was originally written in the hebrew text so the meaning like I said opens up in a whole new way when you read it in that text. in this thread you have shown to be immature and childish you have made false accusations of me yes I haven't forgotten your lie about my sodomy source, you have attacked others used scripture to mock others andhave shown to not be able to handle being wrong or to be put in a postion where you don't know how to respond. You say you don't accept the testimony of men yet went to a rabbi when presented with the hebrew word for circeles meaning did you not? and did you not show me what he said when it fit your agenda? oh wait that is right it didn't really fit your agenda you assumed it did until i pointed out that none of what he said had anything to do with anything flat but that all he said had to do with rotation, and was it not you who originally wnet to that site to begin with?
Once again I proved you wrong and you act like a child except this time you show your true colors not a mere child but a hypocrite. I'm sorry that this debate is to much for you but I told you before I don't need to resort to scripture to disprove you I treasure his word and would never use it against anyone or simply use it just to prove someone wrong, I use scripture to teach uplift encourage build and strengthen his church to edify and help the body you however use it to prove yourself to attack and mock you cherry pick twist and imput your own interpretations to it you have no regard for his holy word and should be ashamed the bible warns about such things
2 Peter 3:16
As he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
Yet you who has no regard for his word continue to use it as a toy continue to treat it as a tool for your own agenda as if this was ever about the bible this was never about the bible or God's word this was never about the firmamentum it was about you wanting to prove the flat earth and you thought you would use God's word to do so and do you know why you do not see how you have mistreated and misused his word? because you lack not only the regard for his word but because you are not a student you have placed in your heart the mind of a teacher not a student therefore you are right in your own mind no matter what even if your wronig you are blind and ignorant you have lost the right to call yourself a student of the word the moment you forget the heart of a student
I didn't call them "rabbi".
I went to the Hebrews because you appealed to them, saying their language is "deeper meaning" and this and such, so I just proved you wrong using Hebrews, but you were already rebuked in english too.
The Word is circle, waters above the firmament. You have to live with it. Whether you like it or not.
I went to the Hebrews because you appealed to them, saying their language is "deeper meaning" and this and such, so I just proved you wrong using Hebrews, but you were already rebuked in english too.
The Word is circle, waters above the firmament. You have to live with it. Whether you like it or not.
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