The modern nation of Israel is not the biblical nation of Israel

[Pilgrimshope]

“Modern Israel is a counterfeit of the biblical Israel in every way.”

Amen . Remember he promised a powerful delusion and that Satan would blind minds to the truth ? people are still looking at earth and not the heavens where the kingdom is waiting

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jerusalem is here since Christ was raised up and seated in the throne but many are pointing to the earthly things and expecting to see the kingdom it’s here though until he returns

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,

and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Your right there is earthly israel which is doomed with all the earth and then Gods israel in heaven. The earthly things are all doomed and are indeed obscure counterfeits of the real things but will end in a terrible event when Christ returns to restore things Now in heaven to earth

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


people are still Looking here to the old covenant which is already fulfilled according to israel breaking the covenant , rather than the new which is promised in Christ.

“Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

….Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:24-26, 30-31‬ ‭

This whole creation is a counterfeit of corruption the real things are in heaven where Jesus is on his throne. We have to believe him to know them and forget this worlds sight.

The only thing we have here are the promises in the gospel of the kingdom And the Holy Ghost which comes from those promises of the gospel we believe which holds this final and enduring Promise for believers

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we live by faith not sight because we can’t see the true things with our eyes only by the faith Gods word builds in us . we have to believe what he said and trust him. Israel is in heaven and believers are being gathered there when they leave this world completely

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

My friends volunteered to help in Israel where Jews returning to Israel first came. My friends did not once meet a Jew who related their return to God's plan for them. Their not knowing didn't in any way affect that it was God's plan for Jews to return to Israel.

And yet it was. You know, "what the enemy meant for evil, God turned it for good". Modern day Israel was probably the only good thing from the holocaust. That burned all the bridge, leaving them with no choice but to return to the Holy Land. It was like another Exodus.

 

[LetGodBeTrue]

“Modern Israel is a counterfeit of the biblical Israel in every way.”

Amen . Remember he promised a powerful delusion and that Satan would blind minds to the truth ? people are still looking at earth and not the heavens where the kingdom is waiting

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jerusalem is here since Christ was raised up and seated in the throne but many are pointing to the earthly things and expecting to see the kingdom it’s here though until he returns

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,

and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Your right there is earthly israel which is doomed with all the earth and then Gods israel in heaven. The earthly things are all doomed and are indeed obscure counterfeits of the real things but will end in a terrible event when Christ returns to restore things Now in heaven to earth

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


people are still Looking here to the old covenant which is already fulfilled according to israel breaking the covenant , rather than the new which is promised in Christ.

“Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

….Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:24-26, 30-31‬ ‭

This whole creation is a counterfeit of corruption the real things are in heaven where Jesus is on his throne. We have to believe him to know them and forget this worlds sight.

The only thing we have here are the promises in the gospel of the kingdom And the Holy Ghost which comes from those promises of the gospel we believe which holds this final and enduring Promise for believers

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we live by faith not sight because we can’t see the true things with our eyes only by the faith Gods word builds in us . we have to believe what he said and trust him. Israel is in heaven and believers are being gathered there when they leave this world completely

The "elements" of 2 Peter 3 have nothing to do with the chemical make up of the physical earth. The meaning of "heaven and earth" to the Jews had everything to do with Judaism, , the Mosaic Law, their Temple, and their claim to be God's people of the Old Covenant. That which was to be burned up was NOT the physical earth. When the Temple ("old heavens and earth") was destroyed in A.D. 70, the fire was so "FERVENT" that the gold melted from the walls. Peter was not predicting the destruction of the physical earth but the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. The "new heavens and earth" are also not physical. They pertain to the aspects of the NEW COVENANT.

The Greek word for "elements" in 2 Peter 3 is stoicheia. It is found only a few times in the NT and NEVER refers to the physical earth. It is used of the precepts and principles of Judaism and the vain philosophies of men. If we do not understand how the OT Jews thought, we will never under the metaphors and symbolism of the NT. In 1 Peter 4:7, Peter wrote that the "end of all things" was "AT HAND." This is coordinate with 2 Peter 3. The end of all things were those things pertaining to Judaism and the Mosaic Law (old heavens and earth). They did come to end in A.D. 70 when they were burned "with fervent heat" in the burning of the city and Temple. There is NO destruction of the earth taught in the Scriptures.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Some of us who are "pre-tribbers" (that is, who see God still having a place for "Israel" in His scheme of things) understand the word "elements [stoicheia]" in much the same way (as spelled out in the post above this one). That it does not refer to the burning up of the earth, and things along those lines.

Just to clarify for the readers, in case they are not aware of this. = )




[one should read BOTH chapters of Isaiah 34-35 to grasp what it is Peter is speaking about in 2 Peter 3:8-12... rather than merely viewing 34:4 (one verse) extracted out apart from its overall context = ) ]

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The "elements" of 2 Peter 3 have nothing to do with the chemical make up of the physical earth. The meaning of "heaven and earth" to the Jews had everything to do with Judaism, , the Mosaic Law, their Temple, and their claim to be God's people of the Old Covenant. That which was to be burned up was NOT the physical earth. When the Temple ("old heavens and earth") was destroyed in A.D. 70, the fire was so "FERVENT" that the gold melted from the walls. Peter was not predicting the destruction of the physical earth but the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. The "new heavens and earth" are also not physical. They pertain to the aspects of the NEW COVENANT.

The Greek word for "elements" in 2 Peter 3 is stoicheia. It is found only a few times in the NT and NEVER refers to the physical earth. It is used of the precepts and principles of Judaism and the vain philosophies of men. If we do not understand how the OT Jews thought, we will never under the metaphors and symbolism of the NT. In 1 Peter 4:7, Peter wrote that the "end of all things" was "AT HAND." This is coordinate with 2 Peter 3. The end of all things were those things pertaining to Judaism and the Mosaic Law (old heavens and earth). They did come to end in A.D. 70 when they were burned "with fervent heat" in the burning of the city and Temple. There is NO destruction of the earth taught in the Scriptures.

Let’s see ?

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

….But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7-8, 10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Why is it going to be destroyed ?

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant….. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5, 20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but he’s promised a new place for his people

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:17‬ ‭

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:40-43, 49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world,

neither in the world to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This world has en expiration date because they broke the covenant and fulfilled the curse when Jesus returns from heaven this world is doomed to destruction

but each of us has the right to “ interpret” or believe

 

[peldom10]

“Israel came into being on May 14th 1948, “

“In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭15:18-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Isn’t that where israel was established ? Being that Jacob his grandson was named israel and then his family israels family went into Egypt 400 years and the. his led them to the promised land given to Abrahams seed? Which is when the promise came to pass when Joshua led them into the land of Israel

The land was originally designated by God.....a covenant forever.
However, I fail to find guaranteed possession. That falls under the history of the Jewish people being assigned tribulations/punishment. So that represents varied Jewish control. As a possession it has been tenuous.
We do not know if 1948 is the last return of livable possession But, the world is on notice with scripture that ultimately they will have the land as a possession without intimidation or loss.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The land was originally designated by God.....a covenant forever.
However, I fail to find guaranteed possession. That falls under the history of the Jewish people being assigned tribulations/punishment. So that represents varied Jewish control. As a possession it has been tenuous.
We do not know if 1948 is the last return of livable possession But, the world is on notice with scripture that ultimately they will have the land as a possession without intimidation or loss.

“The land was originally designated by God.....a covenant forever.”

yeah a covenant based on this condition

“See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.


But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:15-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they fulfilled the curse and not the blessing which led to this

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate:

… Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

….The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5-6, 17, 20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

tbats why it’s reserved for this

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but of course we have the new covenant promises of christs and a new creation that isn’t held for eternal fire and punishment of the wicked

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems like often we interpret away what the scripture plainly says but again we’re all free to believe or come up with why it’s not saying what it says notice ten scripture never makes those interpretations we often come to though ? It just says what it says pretty plainly really

the old covenant given to Israel was to be a blessing if they kept it they would be the ruling city of God on earth and he would dwell With them, but if they broke his covenant it was to be a curse that would spread throughout the world until it was consumed

he began promising a new heaven and earth in the ot prophets long ago making a clear distinction between the old which man corrupted and cursed and the new which he promised those who received the messiah

to negate the conditions God made in the old covenant is to not understand it it was all based on thier works either a blessing or a curse would be the result they chose the curse by worshipping many others gods but we have Gods word of promise now and look for a new home , a better and incorruptable promised land

 

[peldom10]

“The land was originally designated by God.....a covenant forever.”

yeah a covenant based on this condition

“See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.


But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:15-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they fulfilled the curse and not the blessing which led to this

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate:

… Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

….The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5-6, 17, 20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

tbats why it’s reserved for this

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but of course we have the new covenant promises of christs and a new creation that isn’t held for eternal fire and punishment of the wicked

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems like often we interpret away what the scripture plainly says but again we’re all free to believe or come up with why it’s not saying what it says notice ten scripture never makes those interpretations we often come to though ? It just says what it says pretty plainly really

the old covenant given to Israel was to be a blessing if they kept it they would be the ruling city of God on earth and he would dwell With them, but if they broke his covenant it was to be a curse that would spread throughout the world until it was consumed

he began promising a new heaven and earth in the ot prophets long ago making a clear distinction between the old which man corrupted and cursed and the new which he promised those who received the messiah

to negate the conditions God made in the old covenant is to not understand it it was all based on thier works either a blessing or a curse would be the result they chose the curse by worshipping many others gods but we have Gods word of promise now and look for a new home , a better and incorruptable promised land

Amen.

Well put.

A vast majority of Jews are non Christ believing. God must be disappointed in them with all His devotion to their survival. Nothwithstanding the heavy punishment they have had to endure, we must be concerned with their continued anti-christ approach, which could subject them to even more humiliating/devastation experience before the final curtain call.

God bless Israel.

 

[CS1]

You’re too negative for me to give any attention to. So you lost me and any attempt at convincing. Here’s a big red down vote for your post like you gave mine.

Just know from the last state you posted and this one, you have nothing Biblical to refute what has been said that the Isreal today is the one in the bible of old. YOu are now just playing the victim.

 

[Oblio]

There is an ever-growing number of Israeli Jews that are accepting Yeshua as their Messiah. Through the internet, more Jews have come to Christ in the last 20 years than in the prior 2000.
God has not forgotten about the house of Israel, aka the ten tribes.

 

[peldom10]

There is an ever-growing number of Israeli Jews that are accepting Yeshua as their Messiah. Through the internet, more Jews have come to Christ in the last 20 years than in the prior 2000.
God has not forgotten about the house of Israel, aka the ten tribes.

Maybe Hebrews...not Jews.
What happened to the other two tribes? Why have you dropped them?

 

[Oblio]

What happened to the other two?

Judah, Benjamin, a portion of Levi, and a small amount of other Hebrew tribes reside in the Jewish state of Israel.

 

[Inquisitor]

The land was originally designated by God.....a covenant forever.
However, I fail to find guaranteed possession. That falls under the history of the Jewish people being assigned tribulations/punishment. So that represents varied Jewish control. As a possession it has been tenuous.
We do not know if 1948 is the last return of livable possession But, the world is on notice with scripture that ultimately they will have the land as a possession without intimidation or loss.

I thought the covenant that God made at Mt Sinai with Israel, was a conditional covenant. A covenant conditional on their obedience to the law, they agreed three times to obey the book of the law.

Exodus 24:7-8
Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it as the people listened; and they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!” So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

So the ownership of the land of Israel was conditional on their obedience.

We also know that virtually the entire Old Testament is but a shadow, awaiting a future fulfillment in Christ.

Therefore, any eternal covenants, eternal laws, sacrifices, priesthoods, feasts, etc. That appear in the O.T, are in fact, merely types, shadows, and will be fulfilled within the New Covenant.

Obviously, the earthly nation of Israel was a type of the heavenly version.

 

[Beckie]

The land was originally designated by God.....a covenant forever.
However, I fail to find guaranteed possession. That falls under the history of the Jewish people being assigned tribulations/punishment. So that represents varied Jewish control. As a possession it has been tenuous.
We do not know if 1948 is the last return of livable possession But, the world is on notice with scripture that ultimately they will have the land as a possession without intimidation or loss.

IF it was theirs forever why did they have to 'get it back? Is the property called Israel today the same as was the covenant with Abraham ? The covenant with Abraham was conditional, an easy internet Biblical search of the word "if" will confirm its conditions.

 

[Oblio]

The gentile church, Ephraim, Judah = the commonwealth of Israel. It's coming...it's gonna happen! In my opinion.

 

[JaumeJ]

We are made "fellow heirs" with Israel by the Blood of the Lamb of God. The New Jerusalem, yet to be brought down by God is the chosen capital of our Kingdom to come. It is in the Book!





















1

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There is an ever-growing number of Israeli Jews that are accepting Yeshua as their Messiah. Through the internet, more Jews have come to Christ in the last 20 years than in the prior 2000.
God has not forgotten about the house of Israel, aka the ten tribes.

Meanwhile, the former "christendom" is busted, churches are either closed or corrupted, gentiles are "falling away", they begin to worship false idols which "neither they nor their fathers knew", in biblical terms.

 

[Oblio]

The world is going to be amazed at what the Lord does.



















1[/QUOTE]

 

[JaumeJ]

The world is going to be amazed at what the Lord does.



















1

[/QUOTE]

You have said it. I believe our God, our Father, will perform something very great, but most will not perceive it. I have prayed on this. Our Lord is all and everything. He blesses everyone though most just think it is a birthright. God bless you O.

 

[Lanolin]

if was prophesised in OT, the land would not be called Israel
it would be called Beulah ...see Isaiah 62:4

So, unless changes its name, I dont consider it legit. The people need to be married to the land, they are not, though they live there, its like a defacto wife or mistress.