One taken,one left. The rapture.
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Pretribbers usually ascribe the horror, chaos and death associated with those left behind as sudden destruction.
Billions gone.
Car wrecks, planes crashing, train wrecks....fake believers left is immeasurable dread and despair.
All 3 groups are "taken"
Noah...taken
Wicked around the boat...taken
The one on a roof taken.
What i am seeing is some are saying " taken" is ALWAYS wicked taken.
Then "defended"...(not very well)
It is the Assumption of some.
The erroneous assumption
Let me elaborate on why the coming of Christ as in the days of Noah is the day of the Lord.
Let's just match the signs. Please bear with me as I post a wall of verses, but I will keep it as short and relevant as possible.
Isaiah 13-9,10,13 KJV
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh...
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Matthew 24:29-30 KJV
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven...
Acts 2:19-20 KJV
19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Revelation 6:12 KJV
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
What does all of this mean exactly? Jesus said there will be signs. Well, here are all of your matching signs that accompany the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the time of God's wrath. It occurs after the return of Christ, after His elect have been gathered, after the great-tribulation.
This plainly means the great tribulation is not God's wrath, it's the wrath of Satan. I can prove that too.
We all think we are right.
You included.
I called you " friend" and got met with " i am not your friend".
So now i suppose you are thinking different ,friend?
Off topic.
Not to mention your " Jesus can not leave his throne" deal got TOTALLY debunked, in another thread ,by his appearing , ahem, in person to john on patmos.
The deception would be OMITTING the FACT that Lot was removed pretrib and noah entered the ark pretrib.( ark is a type for heaven)What seems to be 'washed away' is 'they all went through the tribulation as they were all 'saved' from the GT/WRATH. (Faith/Christ is our 'ark' and/or 'angels taking our arms). So Noah and Lot WERE TEMPTED/TESTED/PROVED and then saved. The OTHERS were tempted tested and TAKEN in by the deception/tribulation.
We know 'the tribulation' was the 'taking and giving in marriage' and the 'strange flesh' and we KNOW this was the issue because
Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
Taken in by the deceivers/fallen angels/deception that comes upon the world vs Noah and Lot being left behind to continue on LIVING.
Omitting is the low ground.
But i do understand why you do it over and over
there were no wicked taken postflood.
Nothing there at all.
In noah the wicked were " taken" at the BEGINNING.
And noah REMOVED preflood.
So you are framing a pretrib rapture of the wicked.????
Yes you are.
ANOTHER FACT YOU ARE TOTALLY REFRAMING.
Now leave your little red exes.
Since You can not debate the issue.
Good point.
It is comical seeing the statement over and over "you want to be left behind, not taken"
I also think they will be left behind and martyred.
Their reward is in their belief, and the bible is clear.
But all these years i never realized what is in the noah dynamic with postrib spin.
They are actually framing a wicked raptured pretrib.
OMG.
That is funny!!!
A wicked rapture!!!
Interesting word stuff:
In Matt24:39 "took" (them all away) means "to raise up, to lift" (ēren)
In Matt24:40 "Taken" means "to recieve from" (paralambanetai)
So maybe focusing on the English "taken/took" isn't the way to go.
In Matt24:39 "took" (them all away) means "to raise up, to lift" (ēren)
In Matt24:40 "Taken" means "to recieve from" (paralambanetai)
So maybe focusing on the English "taken/took" isn't the way to go.
Yes he does come in wrath
With his his bride that was raptured pretrib as in noah entering the ark ( a type of heaven) and carried miles upward at the start of the flood-gt.
Mirroring the pretrib rapture.
I had totally forgotten about this.
Good find.
The one on the roof is received.
In the flood the wicked taken away , as in destroyed.
But Noah taken up into the air.
I remember that coming up years ago with Perry Stone bringing that dynamic out.
Glad you brought that to the table
I'll say the same thing about G142 (ēren / airo) that I said about the other word (paralambanetai / paralambano - G3880)... that it can be used both to positive and to negative ends [/outcomes]...
...for example, regarding this G142 word in verse 39, it is also used in Matthew 21:21 / Mark 11:23, where it says,
"...say to this mountain, 'be thou REMOVED [G142; or, 'be you taken away'], and cast into the sea..."
See also Luke 23:18, John 19:15, Acts 21:36 & 22:22, and 1Cor5:2 (for G142 used in these verses).
It depends on WHO is doing the taking / took... and TO WHAT ENDS (whether positive or negative)... that goes for both of these words.
I know you dig into the word ,as do I.
We sometimes have different outcomes, but that's ok.
You always keep a level head and i do appreciate that.
No, post tribs don't need the wicked to be taken AT THE SECOND COMING, but taken/overcome/deceived BEFORE then. By the time the AOD gets to 'standing where he ought not', it is already almost at the very end of his hour.
The only thing 'post tribs need' is to be a part of the group that is 'alive and remaining' to the end.
We can read what is written ourselves, to see what happens to those who don't heed Christs first warning, "DO NOT BE DECEIVED" nor the warning, 'Lo, there is Christ - BELIEVE HIM NOT.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, AND THY WRATH IS COME, and THE TIME OF THE DEAD, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, AND KEEPETH HIS GARMENTS lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (GARMENTS TAKEN AWAY THROUGH DECEPTION/THE DECEIVER/THE ONE SENT TO OVERCOME)
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and THE FLESH OF ALL MEN, both free and bond, both small and great.
FROM KINGS ALL THE WAY DOWN TO SLAVES - AND THAT COVERS EVERYONE - EXCEPT FOR THE 'ALIVE AND REMAINING'.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of His mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
This says it is, necessarily.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
No still thinking the same.
To have friends you must show yourself friendly. Pr.18:24
A *friend sticks closer than a *brother.
Would the 'living with the fallen angels' be the TESTING or would the FLOOD be the testing?
Would the 'day to day having his righteous soul vexed' be the TESTING or would the DESTRUCTION be the testing?
The difference between tribulation and wrath seems to be bundled up in one here.
TRIBULATION
2347. thlipsis
Strong's Concordance
thlipsis: tribulation
Original Word: θλῖψις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: thlipsis
Phonetic Spelling: (thlip'-sis)
Definition: tribulation
Usage: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation.
HELPS Word-studies
2347 thlípsis – properly, pressure (what constricts or rubs together), used of a narrow place that "hems someone in"; tribulation, especially internal pressure that causes someone to feel confined (restricted, "without options").
2347 /thlípsis ("compression, tribulation") carries the challenge of coping with the internal pressure of a tribulation, especially when feeling there is "no way of escape" ("hemmed in").
WRATH
3709. orgé
Strong's Concordance
orgé: impulse, wrath
Original Word: ὀργή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: orgé
Phonetic Spelling: (or-gay')
Definition: impulse, wrath
Usage: anger, wrath, passion; punishment, vengeance.
HELPS Word-studies
3709 orgḗ (from orgáō, "to teem, swelling up to constitutionally oppose") – properly, settled anger (opposition), i.e. rising up from an ongoing (fixed) opposition.
3709 /orgḗ ("settled anger") proceeds from an internal disposition which steadfastly opposes someone or something based on extended personal exposure, i.e. solidifying what the beholder considers wrong (unjust, evil).
["Orgē comes from the verb oragō meaning, 'to teem, to swell'; and thus implies that it is not a sudden outburst, but rather (referring to God's) fixed, controlled, passionate feeling against sin . . . a settled indignation (so Hendriksen)" (D. E. Hiebert, at 1 Thes 1:10).]
Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
ARE YOU NOT ALREADY 'LIVING' WITH HIM? Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
ALL THAT scary scary 'horror, chaos, and death' COMES FROM 'the PRE TRIB theory' believers, NOT WHAT IS WRITTEN.
The 'left behind' is the mind set is of CARNAL MAN, not those who have ALREADY died and are raised up with Christ who ALREADY KILL THE FLESH EVERYDAY, not those who know and understand we are NOT TO FEAR the killing of the FLESH or the man who can do it, but we are to fear HIM who kills BOTH the flesh and soul.
Post tribulation believers, believe what is written by God, not what man makes up such as
Ephesians 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
10 Finally, my brethren, BE STRONG IN THE LORD AND IN THE POWER OF HIS MIGHT.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication FOR ALL SAINTS
1Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand for they shall forecast devices against him.
26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow and many shall fall down slain.
27 And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end because it is yet for a time appointed.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
"""No, post tribs don't need the wicked to be taken AT THE SECOND COMING, but taken/overcome/deceived BEFORE then. By the time the AOD gets to 'standing where he ought not', it is already almost at the very end of his hour."""
ok. Who is the "one taken" and when does that happen in relationship to rev 19 the coming on white horses.