The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.
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""""I don’t believe many of you have the mind to search the scriptures to see if these things be so. ( pretribulationalism) The church is raptured""""
Post the verses you claim support you view.
You have only been here a short while.
You will find out real quick if your views can stand testing against the word.
You seem to take the debate too personal.
Skip all that and go "concept" vs "concept"
Post the verses you claim support you view.
You have only been here a short while.
You will find out real quick if your views can stand testing against the word.
You seem to take the debate too personal.
Skip all that and go "concept" vs "concept"
What are you using the second coming on the white horses are you referring to army following The Word of God The KING OF KINGS AND THE LORDS . OK using that text 1thessolians 4 The dead in Christ rise first ( Yes ? ) living believers go next (yes ) to meet the Lord in the air (yes)? Sounds to me like the first resurrection and the rapture are the same event . The Lord shall descend with a shout , the voice of the Archangel and the dead in Christ shall rise first .
Nope.
Martha knew (just as ALL OT saints WELL-knew) of the resurrection referred to in places like:
--Daniel 12:13 "thou [Daniel] shalt rest [that is, in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [that is, be resurrected ('to stand again' [on the earth])] at the END OF THE DAYS [i.e. at the END of the "DAYS" referred to IN THAT CONTEXT, vv.1,6-7, that is, at the END of the TRIB yrs]";
--Job19:25-27 (i.e. FOR what we call the MK age... same time-slot as above ^ );
[this is another acknowledgment of this...]
--John 11:24 Martha's wording "IN the last day" (corresponding with the passages ALSO about the MK age, aka "The Last Day"... same time-slot as above)
What Paul wrote about in 1Cor15:51-54 was, by contrast, (and addressed to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"), "Behold, I SHOW you a MYSTERY" (something not yet having been disclosed, but is NOW being disclosed, and Paul being the one God has TASKED with disclosing it--because it pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those having come to faith in Christ "in this present age [singular]"... "THIS corruptible" (the DEAD *IN* Christ) and "THIS mortal" (the we which are ALIVE and remain unto... who are ALSO *IN* Christ; together, the "ONE BODY"... Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])])... something that WASN'T already well-known unto all OT saints... with also the phrase "in the twinkling of an eye" (same passage) referring to [a very specific point in time... not only a split-second AMOUNT of time]...
... so no, Martha, in John 11:24 was NOT speaking of the later GWTj resurrection. No, their correct expectation was to be present FOR [what we now call] the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age. (The "TRIB saints" who DIE in the Trib will ALSO be "resurrected ['to stand again']" IN TIME for this--the *earthly* MK age [Rev20:4b speaks to this])
[again: 1Cor15:23 "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning: 'of more than two'] in his own ORDER / RANK" (which means there is an ORDER / RANK to it, and that there doesn't remain only ONE at ONE POINT in time); In Rev20, "the resurrection the FIRST [ADJECTIVE]"... this word "first [ADJECTIVE]" is the same word used where Paul said he was the "CHIEF" of sinners (note: not the FIRST, TIME-WISE)]
Martha knew (just as ALL OT saints WELL-knew) of the resurrection referred to in places like:
--Daniel 12:13 "thou [Daniel] shalt rest [that is, in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [that is, be resurrected ('to stand again' [on the earth])] at the END OF THE DAYS [i.e. at the END of the "DAYS" referred to IN THAT CONTEXT, vv.1,6-7, that is, at the END of the TRIB yrs]";
--Job19:25-27 (i.e. FOR what we call the MK age... same time-slot as above ^ );
[this is another acknowledgment of this...]
--John 11:24 Martha's wording "IN the last day" (corresponding with the passages ALSO about the MK age, aka "The Last Day"... same time-slot as above)
What Paul wrote about in 1Cor15:51-54 was, by contrast, (and addressed to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"), "Behold, I SHOW you a MYSTERY" (something not yet having been disclosed, but is NOW being disclosed, and Paul being the one God has TASKED with disclosing it--because it pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those having come to faith in Christ "in this present age [singular]"... "THIS corruptible" (the DEAD *IN* Christ) and "THIS mortal" (the we which are ALIVE and remain unto... who are ALSO *IN* Christ; together, the "ONE BODY"... Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])])... something that WASN'T already well-known unto all OT saints... with also the phrase "in the twinkling of an eye" (same passage) referring to [a very specific point in time... not only a split-second AMOUNT of time]...
... so no, Martha, in John 11:24 was NOT speaking of the later GWTj resurrection. No, their correct expectation was to be present FOR [what we now call] the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age. (The "TRIB saints" who DIE in the Trib will ALSO be "resurrected ['to stand again']" IN TIME for this--the *earthly* MK age [Rev20:4b speaks to this])
[again: 1Cor15:23 "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning: 'of more than two'] in his own ORDER / RANK" (which means there is an ORDER / RANK to it, and that there doesn't remain only ONE at ONE POINT in time); In Rev20, "the resurrection the FIRST [ADJECTIVE]"... this word "first [ADJECTIVE]" is the same word used where Paul said he was the "CHIEF" of sinners (note: not the FIRST, TIME-WISE)]
Uh no.
1st resurrection is ONLY the dead in Christ
Second is AFTER THE MIL.
So Martha knew of the dead in christ of 1 thes 4?
Your rev 20 resurrection ( that is not AT THAT TIME) is POINTING to a resurrection PREVIOISLY.
It is NOT SAYING there is a resurrection after armageddon, after satan chained (THE ACTUAL SETTING).
No
Rev 20 does not say what you are implying.
1st resurrection is ONLY the dead in Christ
Second is AFTER THE MIL.
So Martha knew of the dead in christ of 1 thes 4?
Your rev 20 resurrection ( that is not AT THAT TIME) is POINTING to a resurrection PREVIOISLY.
It is NOT SAYING there is a resurrection after armageddon, after satan chained (THE ACTUAL SETTING).
No
Rev 20 does not say what you are implying.
Daniel was told he would be resurrected at the END of the TRIB ['days' referred to IN THAT CONTEXT: vv.1,6-7 (after SECOND HALF of TRIB)].
That is when ALL OT saints (and TRIB saints who DIE in the Trib) will be "resurrected" (they've not been promised "RAPTURE/SNATCH [IN THE AIR]").
How do *you* explain WHAT Daniel was told in Dan12:13?? "WHEN" is it referring to, regarding DANIEL [/ OT SAINT]?? (Same question, regarding for JOB [/ OT SAINT], Job19:25-27 "latter day" ... "upon the earth")
That is when ALL OT saints (and TRIB saints who DIE in the Trib) will be "resurrected" (they've not been promised "RAPTURE/SNATCH [IN THE AIR]").
How do *you* explain WHAT Daniel was told in Dan12:13?? "WHEN" is it referring to, regarding DANIEL [/ OT SAINT]?? (Same question, regarding for JOB [/ OT SAINT], Job19:25-27 "latter day" ... "upon the earth")
kleronomos said:
"""Simple really, I BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN."""
Fg reply """Rather, you believe what the Bible doesn't say."""
Man i love it.
The one that has the sole argument based on what is not there accusing a member of standing on what is not there.
Belly laugh irony.
Too funny.
" nowhere does it say "tree" on the tree, so that ain't a tree. Prove it is a tree"
SMH
"""Simple really, I BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN."""
Fg reply """Rather, you believe what the Bible doesn't say."""
Man i love it.
The one that has the sole argument based on what is not there accusing a member of standing on what is not there.
Belly laugh irony.
Too funny.
" nowhere does it say "tree" on the tree, so that ain't a tree. Prove it is a tree"
SMH
As I've explained in the past, the text explicitly TELLS us WHERE they went, and I believe this is set in contradistinction to that of WHERE Christ Himself went after His resurrection ON FIRSTFRUIT, which He TOLD Mary Magdalene (John 20:17 "I ASCEND")... and in fulfillment OF Lev23:10-12 "FIRSTFRUIT" ("wave THE SHEAF"... and "AN HE LAMB without blemish" [one]);
I've said I believe they (the "many" who rose, in Matt27) are a SAMPLING (and a snapshot) of those OT saints who WILL be "resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)]" at His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age.
They were NOT taken up to Heaven with Christ when He did His "I ASCEND [active]" that very day of His resurrection / ON FIRSTFRUIT Lev23:10-12 (His FIRST of TWO ascensions; the latter one being in Acts 1 "VISIBLY" [which is how He will likewise RETURN *to the earth* / what we commonly call His Second Coming (Rev19--VISIBLY... when EVERY EYE shall SEE Him)]); Instead, they went into the city and were seen by many... (all earthly-located, as will be the "resurrection" at the END of the Trib yrs!! Job19:25-27; Dan12:13; Jn11:24... and Rev20:4b)
I've said I believe they (the "many" who rose, in Matt27) are a SAMPLING (and a snapshot) of those OT saints who WILL be "resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)]" at His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age.
They were NOT taken up to Heaven with Christ when He did His "I ASCEND [active]" that very day of His resurrection / ON FIRSTFRUIT Lev23:10-12 (His FIRST of TWO ascensions; the latter one being in Acts 1 "VISIBLY" [which is how He will likewise RETURN *to the earth* / what we commonly call His Second Coming (Rev19--VISIBLY... when EVERY EYE shall SEE Him)]); Instead, they went into the city and were seen by many... (all earthly-located, as will be the "resurrection" at the END of the Trib yrs!! Job19:25-27; Dan12:13; Jn11:24... and Rev20:4b)
Actually acts one, was a local event ,with only a few seeing him.
In fact it is opposite of the rev 19 return as is declared by the angels " ...this same Jesus will return in "LIKE MANNER", (as in no white horses or warrior attitude)
IOW THE RAPTURE...SOLO with no accompanying billion man army.
In the rapture it is NOT "every eye shall see him" as many millions will be sleeping.
In fact it is opposite of the rev 19 return as is declared by the angels " ...this same Jesus will return in "LIKE MANNER", (as in no white horses or warrior attitude)
IOW THE RAPTURE...SOLO with no accompanying billion man army.
In the rapture it is NOT "every eye shall see him" as many millions will be sleeping.
And that is the Second Advent. Jesus comes to earth only twice. First time as the "suffering Servant" and second time as the "King of kings and Lord of lords". Prove me wrong, if I am.
Wrong. There is nothing about your trip to heaven in a glorified body. 1 Thess 4 is the Second Advent where ALL believers get a glorified body.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Please show me from Scripture how the red words cannot be the Second Advent and the blue words cannot be the SINGLE resurrection of all believers.
Then, please at least CITE the verses where we see "2 comings".
Thank you.
Wrong. There is nothing about your trip to heaven in a glorified body. 1 Thess 4 is the Second Advent where ALL believers get a glorified body.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Please show me from Scripture how the red words cannot be the Second Advent and the blue words cannot be the SINGLE resurrection of all believers.
Then, please at least CITE the verses where we see "2 comings".
Thank you.
I will have to assume you haven't read any of my posts.
As a student of the Bible fromthe Berean method of study, this is what I have found and shared for pages and pages on this thread.
1. There is ONE resurrection of the saved and ONE resurrection of the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
2. All believers will receive their glorified bodies at the single resurrection of the saved.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (all believers belong to Him, because He has saved them)
3. The single resurrection of the saved will occur "when He comes" which is a reference to the Second Advent.
1 Cor 15:23
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Rev 20:4,5
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Red words refer to believing martyrs from the Tribulation.
Blue words refer to the single resurrection, which obviously will occur when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent. Since there is only one, John wasn't motivated to mention all the other previously dead saints, nor the living ones. But ALL will "reign with him".
Could you provide the verses that have convinced you of this? And what is the time frame for 'rapture' and 2nd Coming?
Exactly.
As a student of the Bible fromthe Berean method of study, this is what I have found and shared for pages and pages on this thread.
1. There is ONE resurrection of the saved and ONE resurrection of the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
2. All believers will receive their glorified bodies at the single resurrection of the saved.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (all believers belong to Him, because He has saved them)
3. The single resurrection of the saved will occur "when He comes" which is a reference to the Second Advent.
1 Cor 15:23
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Rev 20:4,5
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Red words refer to believing martyrs from the Tribulation.
Blue words refer to the single resurrection, which obviously will occur when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent. Since there is only one, John wasn't motivated to mention all the other previously dead saints, nor the living ones. But ALL will "reign with him".
Could you provide the verses that have convinced you of this? And what is the time frame for 'rapture' and 2nd Coming?
Exactly.
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