The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[TheDivineWatermark]

The Lockdowns due to a supposed pandemic will keep people separate from others. Most will only be concerned with getting supplies, (which may be limited) and returning home.
Then when those who are eagerly waiting and looking for the Lord are taken, their bodies will be changed and there will be nothing left to indicate where they are. If some people do notice that so and so is not around there are many reasons for that - gone into a covid quarantine camp, visiting relatives, gone on holiday, etc etc.
Have you ever thought about this?

Yes, I used to say this all the time back in the mid-to-late 70s, and my friends and relatives would sort of roll their eyes. lol

I've been saying for years, things like "planes falling out of the sky" is NOT going to be what will be happening when "our Rapture" occurs (for reasons along these lines, as I see it... and have seen it for these many years... but now with more study under my belt [like under Point #2 in my Post #2875... confirming the thoughts I'd had so long ago even], haha)


-- https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4784522

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

God will return on The Last Day as in Book of John .

The texts in John actually state: "IN the last day"...

...and I have biblical reason to believe this phrase ("the last day") is NOT referring merely to "a singular 24-hr day"
(though surely "resurrection" would certainly take place on one particular "24-hr day" OF the "IN the Last Day" period-of-time).



Here's a post I made explaining some of that (using Scripture), if you or anyone is interested in viewing those reasons:

-- Post #153 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/wake-up-church-the-time-has-come.196183/post-4437001








[saying (incorrectly) "ON the last day" does indeed make it SEEM to be referring to "a singular 24-hr day"... but the wording is actually "IN the last day"... and I believe corresponds with other Scripture elsewhere, as explained in that Post at LINK]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

-- "IN the last day" - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/11-24.htm for example

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I forgot to mention (but should probably add here, when speaking of "IN the last day")...

John 6:39 and John 6:40 (both using this phrase) are speaking of DISTINCT [but somewhat, semi-related] issues:

--John 6:39 "that all THAT He hath given Me..." is speaking of THINGS - https://biblehub.com/text/john/6-39.htm

--John 6:40 "that everyone [/all] WHO [beholding the Son and believing...]" is speaking of PERSONS - https://biblehub.com/text/john/6-40.htm

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Pretribbers keep saying this but don't bring any evidence.

The evidence shows that Jesus resurrects and gathers believers at the Second Advent, and NONE of them are taken to heaven.

I am aware of your posts in the decent position.

"decent position"?

However, you are not allowing yourself to properly consider scriptures.

I am looking for evidence. There is none for pretrib, and much for a posttrib resurrection. btw, a recent poster said there is no rapture, and I do agree. By that, I mean there is no evidence that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven.

There is evidence that at the Second Advent Jesus will gather (biblical word) all believers together for their glorified bodies.

Example; what does scripture mean where it says to the Philadelphia church........because you have a little faith I will keep you from the hour that shall come upon all the earth. That alone eliminates mid or post trib. elments....unless you can negate it's meaning and purpose.

No, you are just assuming it "means that". Consider Egypt and the 10 plagues. The Jews lived in Egypt but were protected from ALL the plagues. iow, they "were kept from the hour that shall come upon all Egypt".

Now please...take a minute and tell me what that means? There are many more like it to be answered....one at a time.

I've been able to answer every example thrown at me.

I am always mindful of scripture....some things are reserved for our father's knowledge only....and.....it shall be revealed in due time.

Have you read the verses that I've shared that show that there is a SINGLE resurrection for the saved and a single resurrection for the unsaved?

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection (singular) of both the righteous and the wicked. iow, one resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Rev 20:5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

iow, this resurrection, called the "first" is at the Second Advent and involves the saved. Though only Trib martyrs are mentioned, since there is ONLY ONE resurrection of the saved, this verse proves when that will be.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse is in the overall context of resurrection of the saved. It says that Jesus is "first fruits", meaning He is the first human to receive a glorified body. What follows is very instructive; THEN, "when He comes" (Second Advent, obviously) "those who belong to Him".

Who all belong to Christ? Every believer from Adam forward.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

If you can prove that the red words cannot mean the Second Advent, and the blue words cannot mean the gathering of living believers at the resurrection, please do.

These verses are why I am totally convinced that there is no rapture trip to heaven at any time. The single resurrection of all saved people will occur when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent and sets up His Millennial Reign.

These verses are clear evidence for my belief.

 

[FreeGrace2]

View attachment 236846 Best Book out there on endtime eschatology. Mike- drop scriptural reproof of pretribulationalism. You wil see things very clearly as intended. For those of you seeking the truth there are a few copies left on Amazon. Real Deal . No need to scoff after you read I guarantee you will be convinced no secret silent rapture of the church and no need study dispensationalism for countless hours . Jesus is returning and it’s going to be loud open and public.

Could you share the few best verses that support pretribulationism?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Could you share the few best verses that support pretribulationism?

He's "POST-trib," as is the author of the book he is recommending. jfyi

 

[peldom10]

View attachment 236846 Best Book out there on endtime eschatology. Mike- drop scriptural reproof of pretribulationalism. You wil see things very clearly as intended. For those of you seeking the truth there are a few copies left on Amazon. Real Deal . No need to scoff after you read I guarantee you will be convinced no secret silent rapture of the church and no need study dispensationalism for countless hours . Jesus is returning and it’s going to be loud open and public.

Why are you introducing ...silent...in the point. The rapture will be above all other headlines. All will see and hear when it occurs. Silent has nothing to do with Rapture and tribulation points.
Another...anything to sell a book...again.
The book is not recommended...study the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why you keep harping on your "no body" theory is strange.

Simple really, I BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN.

Rather, you believe what the Bible doesn't say.

WHY YOU WOULD THINK I BELIEVE 'NO BODY' IS BEYOND ME. Never would I say NO BODY. NEVER.

It's difficult to keep all the posters categorized. Are you a soul sleeper type, like the SDA?

I have never not one time ever made any statement implying we go anywhere without a body. NEVER. I HAVE ALSO NEVER NOT ONCE EVER STATED I BELIEVED WE HAD MORE THAN 2, (speculated once about more than at some point but never set forth as a belief) I sure hope that clears up any misconception you may have.

If you are one of those "soul sleeper" kind of dudes, all you have to do is realize from Rev 6 that John "saw souls under the altar". So, how did they get there if they were sleeping in their dead bodies?

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

So I DON'T know of a DIFFERENT WAY TO READ this.

Nor do I. It clearly is contrasting the DIFFERENCE between our physical and mortal bodies with our future glorified bodies.

ALL I see is IT RAISED IN GLORY.

So AS STRANGE AS THAT SEEMS, I BELIEVE it means: IT IS RAISED IN GLORY

I don't see any problem with this at all. Of course our resurrection (glorified) body will be "raised in glory". And I have shown FROM SCRIPTURE that this will occur "when He comes", which will be at the Second Advent.

Now if you would KINDLY point me to the SCHOLARs who SAY: IT IS RAISED IN AN INTERIM BODY I will gladly go to that verse in Scripture and say OH MY GOD, THERE IT IS. HOW FOOLISH OF ME TO HAVE BELIEVED IT WAS RAISED IN GLORY. THAT IS MY BELIEF NO LONGER. I HAVE LOTS OF PEOPLE I NEED TO APOLOGIZE TO,

You have sorely misunderstood me (or I have failed to be more clear). I never said anything about an interim body will be raised.

What I did say is that there are scholars who describe dead believers as being in an interim body. That's all. Since our souls are immaterial and therefore invisible, how could John SEE "the souls under the altar" in heaven?

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
THERE IT IS, then I see SOWEST but a bare grain. NOTHING ABOUT 'RAISED'.
So back to ' I AM RAISED IN GLORY. ' AGAIN.

YES, "raised in glory" IS the resurrection of believers, when ALL believers receive a glorified body. Just like the one Jesus has.

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed His own body.

I HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO 'AN INTERIM BODY'

BUT I HAVE DEFINITELY ASCERTAINED RAISED IN A BODY FOR SURE.

As I noted, the Bible gives NO description of how dead believers look/appear/are in heaven. What I do know from Jesus is that a rich man DID recognize Abraham and Lazarus in Hades and had a conversation with Abe. Many will 'splain it away by saying it was only a parable. That isn't true. Jesus NEVER used proper names in His parables. And what would be the teaching if it were just a parable? Only the One giving the parable can tell us what was meant.

I DON'T KNOW how to say:
GOD, this doesn't fit with what I now believe. MY whole belief that SAYS I AM RAISED UP IN A DIFFERENT WAY, so I am just going to skip over this. Hope you don't mind.

I hope by the end of reading my response, you will finally realize that I believe that 'raised in glory' has NOTHING to do with the way believers are in heaven, awaiting their glorified body.

 

[Absolutely]

Correct . Darby is mentioned in the introduction. That is an assumption though is it not ? Extra-Biblical . I have no proof that Darby is the source of pre-tribulation doctrine . All I have is my KJV. And as many as are willing to discuss scripture without wearing me out. Up front Absolutely I don’t want a text heavy discussion on pre-trib theology. Let’s do the Keep it Simple Stupid thing K.I.S.S. and break down the timing of this event . Piece by piece. Using scripture. We can start wherever you like.
1 The Historic Authenticity of Pretribulationism
2 The Rise and Spread of Pretribulationism
3 The Rapture-Secret & Silent ?
4 Wrath, Tribulation , or Rapture ?
5 When will believers be Separated from Unbelievers ?
6 Will Christs Return be in Two Stages?
7 Coming “For” and Coming “With" the Saints
8 Terminology of the Second Coming
9 The Day of the Lord
10 Imminency and The Early Church

All the arguments on phrases
"the day of the lord"
" trumpets"
"Trump"
"Last trump"
Have simply become fodder to isolate and pull meaning from that either side can go on and on about.

"The origin" thingy ends up hurting postribber position in two dynamics.
1) postribbers will never admit the church fathers that did in fact present a pretrib rapture model.
2) postribbers will never admit their own doctrines origin sprang out of an ASSUMPTION that they were in the great tribulation.

So going extra biblical hurts the postrib position.

The only arguments that sound worthy to me from your list is #6 and #10.

There are 2 comings definitely as the bible teaches....the rapture being pretrib and separate is easy to authenticate using Gods word.

And imminency is also very much a fact.

 

[riverhooks]

The texts in John actually state: "IN the last day"...

...and I have biblical reason to believe this phrase ("the last day") is NOT referring merely to "a singular 24-hr day"
(though surely "resurrection" would certainly take place on one particular "24-hr day" OF the "IN the Last Day" period-of-time).



Here's a post I made explaining some of that (using Scripture), if you or anyone is interested in viewing those reasons:

-- Post #153 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/wake-up-church-the-time-has-come.196183/post-4437001








[saying (incorrectly) "ON the last day" does indeed make it SEEM to be referring to "a singular 24-hr day"... but the wording is actually "IN the last day"... and I believe corresponds with other Scripture elsewhere, as explained in that Post at LINK]

`Sorry about that Watermark we are both wrong but the point was The Last Day. John 11 :23 Jesus saith unto her, The brother shall rise again. 14 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection AT the last day

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are 2 comings definitely as the bible teaches....the rapture being pretrib and separate is easy to authenticate using Gods word.

Right. The FIRST Advent and the SECOND Advent. First time as the "suffering servant" and second time as "King of kings, and Lord of lords". Yep. Just 2.

And imminency is also very much a fact.

So is the FACT that the Bible says NOTHING about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven either.

 

[Absolutely]

I just want to throw out some truth here. First of all we are dust and return to dust. Absent in the body is present with the lord. In the presence of the Lord there is fullness of joy. When we die our spirits go to be with the Lord . He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit . Ergo Nothing shall ever separate us from the love of God which is in Jesus our Lord. Amen ? While we look not on things temporal but eternal . When you go to pray Hebrews 12:22-24 But ye are come to mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God , the heavenly Jerusalem , and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general ssembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to the spirits of just men made perfect , and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling , that speaketh better things than that of able. Jesus will return this also known as the Day of God . Pretribulationists need to take the authority of Gods Word for they will be waiting for the wrong event namely a secret silent rapture while In truth The Lord returns in Glory , The spirits of just men made perfect are joined to new glorified bodies . They rise from the dead and are translated to meet the Lord in the air living saints go next and are changed in an instant as well meeting the Lord in the air and escorting him on his descent. What precedes this is The Lord descending with a Shout the Voice of the Archangel and the Trump of God . To make a long story short . God is coming Back the Crucified Risen Ascended God is coming back . I personally am fed up with the phoneness of it all with regards to all this wayward theology. There is no mention of the word “ rapture” in the Bible . Correct. It is the catching up of the living believers at the first resurrection at the coming of The Lord. I have heard the reasonings .Personally I am not out to convince you to use the Word of God as authoritative but I can assure you that if you do not. You will believe in fantasy. “ For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine “ Christ will return not first secretly for the church and then return with the church . God will return on The Last Day as in Book of John . Pretty simple Christ will return in flaming fire taking vengence on those that know not God and obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. The church is intended to be the pillar and ground of the truth . You will have to see if you are willing to accept that you are not going to some early out event . The rapture is at the first resurrection when Jesus comes back .

"""""The rapture is at the first resurrection when Jesus comes back"""""
The first resurrection is 1 thes 4.
That is pretrib.

"""""Christ will return not first secretly for the church and then return with the church"""""
Mat 24 alone has 2 "comings".

You keep defaulting to "secret" as if anyone believes that.
Neither side uses that term

Only postribs kinda make that up.
I never heard of secret rapture until postribbers introduced it.

Never heard of darby either until postribbers introduced it erroneously.

 

[Absolutely]

`Sorry about that Watermark we are both wrong but the point was The Last Day. John 11 :23 Jesus saith unto her, The brother shall rise again. 14 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection AT the last day

Martha was unaware of the first and second resurrection.
Martha only knew of the one at the gwtj.

 

[riverhooks]

Why are you introducing ...silent...in the point. The rapture will be above all other headlines. All will see and hear when it occurs. Silent has nothing to do with Rapture and tribulation points.
Another...anything to sell a book...again.
The book is not recommended...study the Bible.

Because the pretribulationist version is the biggest kidnapping in History will take place and everyone will wonder where the believers went airplanes will fall from the sky their pilots raptured , cars will run over pedestrians their drivers raptured . These are the scenarios of pretribulationist rapture books. I for one. The Blessed Hope is not the pretribulationist rapture. It is a false teaching look to scripture The Blessed hope is the Lords return . I still haven’t found someone that is a pretribulationist speak any scripture to support such an event . Bible is clear . Clear the catching up of the living believers to meet the Lord in the air is at the first resurrection. At the Second Coming of Christ not the Third. Read your Bible Amigo.

 

[riverhooks]

Martha was unaware of the first and second resurrection.
Martha only knew of the one at the gwtj.

Martha was unaware of the first and second resurrection.
Martha only knew of the one at the gwtj.

OK . the second resurrection Absolutely is the unsaved at the Great White Throne Judgement , so maybe she didn’t . And what may that have to do with anything ?

 

[riverhooks]

"""""The rapture is at the first resurrection when Jesus comes back"""""
The first resurrection is 1 thes 4.
That is pretrib.

"""""Christ will return not first secretly for the church and then return with the church"""""
Mat 24 alone has 2 "comings".

You keep defaulting to "secret" as if anyone believes that.
Neither side uses that term

Only postribs kinda make that up.
I never heard of secret rapture until postribbers introduced it.

Never heard of darby either until postribbers introduced it erroneously.

I have no idea what you are talking about seriously . You are saying the rapture is at the first resurrection at the Second Coming . I say secret and silent because The Day of the Lord will be a day of vengence in flaming fire , the first resurrection and catching up of the saints occur on that day. One day loud noisy public . Shout Voice Trumpet

 

[Absolutely]

OK . the second resurrection Absolutely is the unsaved at the Great White Throne Judgement , so maybe she didn’t . And what may that have to do with anything ?

does not say they are all thrown into the lof.

Mat 13
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

 

[riverhooks]

Why are you introducing ...silent...in the point. The rapture will be above all other headlines. All will see and hear when it occurs. Silent has nothing to do with Rapture and tribulation points.
Another...anything to sell a book...again.
The book is not recommended...study the Bible.

Ok I’ll take your flak . I was sharing the best book on the subject. But in this blog I do not get the feeling of honesty , integrity or even the Berean Christians who searched the scriptures to see if those things were so . “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine but after their own lusts shall heap to themselves teachers , having itching ears and shall be turned away from the truth and turned unto fables. All I have heard on this blog is naysaying but not a single scripture . I don’t believe many of you have the mind to search the scriptures to see if these things be so. ( pretribulationalism) The church is raptured . Not the same as the Second Coming of Christ. Not the same day. Prior. Pretribbers have it all figured out . But not from scripture . Show me the scripture . I don’t want to hear your speculations your skewed exegesis and puffed up non-sense.

 

[Absolutely]

I have no idea what you are talking about seriously . You are saying the rapture is at the first resurrection at the Second Coming . I say secret and silent because The Day of the Lord will be a day of vengence in flaming fire , the first resurrection and catching up of the saints occur on that day. One day loud noisy public . Shout Voice Trumpet

There is no rapture at the second coming on the white horses.
The rapture is at 1 thes 4
Pretrib rapture.