The Wider Mercy #1 The Missing Bride

[Evmur]

Matt. 25
Then shall the kingdom of Heaven be likened unto 10 virgins which took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom
and 5 of them were wise and five were foolish.
they that were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them
but the wise took oil with their lamps
while the bridegroom tarried they all slumbered and slept
and at midnight there was a cry made "behold the bridegroom cometh go ye out to meet him"

But in more ancient Latin and Syrian texts than St Jerome's Latin vulgate of the 4th century it has
and at midnight there was a cry made "behold the bridegroom cometh with his bride go ye out to meet him."

I am perhaps being a little bold in accepting this translation over the ancient text of St Jerome. But even if you accept St Jerome's version there is still the matter of the bride, she is made the more conspicuous by her absence. She ought to be there alongside her bridegroom.

Why did St. Jerome leave her out?

He had a dilemma for he had already espied the church or so he thought in the wise virgins, he knew well that he could not have 2 representations [I'm only surmising here folks] of the church and certainly if the bride was there alongside her bridegroom she is the true representation of the church, so he solved his problem by leaving her out. He solved his dilemma but completely altered the meaning of the parable.

Whether she is present or absent the bride is the church, so who are the virgins whether wise or foolish? if they are not the bride they are not the church and yet they gain admittance to the kingdom.

The bride will not need to knock to gain admittance.

In another post mebbe I will show this dilemma of St Jerome again in his relating the last day judgement from the same chapter of Matthew.

 

[Gardenias]

Disagree.
Mt.25:1-13.
The 10 virgins are about believersor followers of Jesus,HE IS THE BRIDEGROOM.
Representing the BRIDE ( she didn't come with him and these are NOT her brides maidens!
All had oil for their lamps at the time they gathered to wait for HIS COMING. They are the BRIDE,WE THE BELIEVERS ARE THE BRIDE.
Half neglected to bring enough oil,failure to keep the word replenished,loss of first love,allowed the Spirit ( oil) to diminish in their life, so their lamps went out bc they did not keep them TRIMMED AND BURNING.

So they went away to try and get more oil instead of being there as the bridegroom expected,for them to be waiting,TRIMMED and burning.

While they were away and busy ,the Groom came to COLLECT his Bride. TRIMMED and burning,fully prepared in the word,full of the Spirit and fire,they went in to the wedding.

After the door was closed( and will be closed like Noahs ark), they came back. Knocking on the door they thought they would be accepted and ushered in NOT SO for the LORD,MASTER AND SAVIOUR answered and said I know you NOT.

This is a parable of Jesus the bridegroom collecting his Bride whom the Father said he would have by paying the purchase price or dowry for.
Verse13 WATCH THEREFORE,FOR YE KNOW NEITHER THE DAY NOR THE HOUR WHEREIN THE SON OF MAN COMETH!

We are admonished and instructed to NOT let our life for God grow cold,but rather to stay prayed up ,fired up and ready to leave without notice except for the signs of the time!

 

[Gardenias]

The WORD OF GOD,holy men wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is our TRUTH,not some saint jerome.
You may deny but your " WIDER MERCY is nothing but a guise for Univeralsim.........which you believe.

I pray the word will get in your heart like a canker worm and eat out ALL these heresies,and may the Lord have mercy.

I will not need to apologize for any of the above for it is concern and correction in love!

 

[Gardenias]

Ex.20:1-5 And God spake all these words, saying,
I AM THE LORD THY GOD...........Thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
Deu.5:6/7. Again I AM THE LORD THY GOD.......THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.Due6:13-16


Ex.22:20 Thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS BEFORE me.......WHOSOEVER SACRIFICES TO ANY god OTHER THAN THE LORD.........MUST BE DESTROYEDDeu:13:6-10 stoning



These that you think God will grace in because they are SINCERE in their WORSHIP of their other God's such as Buddha, Hinduism, etc. ARE AGAINST GOD!

The ONLY way to God and heaven is through JESUS,all others lead to hell.

 

[riverhooks]

Matt. 25
Then shall the kingdom of Heaven be likened unto 10 virgins which took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom
and 5 of them were wise and five were foolish.
they that were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them
but the wise took oil with their lamps
while the bridegroom tarried they all slumbered and slept
and at midnight there was a cry made "behold the bridegroom cometh go ye out to meet him"

But in more ancient Latin and Syrian texts than St Jerome's Latin vulgate of the 4th century it has
and at midnight there was a cry made "behold the bridegroom cometh with his bride go ye out to meet him."

I am perhaps being a little bold in accepting this translation over the ancient text of St Jerome. But even if you accept St Jerome's version there is still the matter of the bride, she is made the more conspicuous by her absence. She ought to be there alongside her bridegroom.

Why did St. Jerome leave her out?

He had a dilemma for he had already espied the church or so he thought in the wise virgins, he knew well that he could not have 2 representations [I'm only surmising here folks] of the church and certainly if the bride was there alongside her bridegroom she is the true representation of the church, so he solved his problem by leaving her out. He solved his dilemma but completely altered the meaning of the parable.

Whether she is present or absent the bride is the church, so who are the virgins whether wise or foolish? if they are not the bride they are not the church and yet they gain admittance to the kingdom.

The bride will not need to knock to gain admittance.

In another post mebbe I will show this dilemma of St Jerome again in his relating the last day judgement from the same chapter of Matthew.

I think the parables context is on being ready and full of the Spirit of God for the Lords coming. The coming of the Lord accompanied by his Bride is scriptural . When King Jesus descends, believers will rise to meet Him in the clouds and then promptly proceed to escort Him and His angelic host back to earth. I would prefer not to get into a lengthy discourse of the greek on the details of the this event. A lot of work . But Italics is the gist of it.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

So here is the Latin from the Clementine Vulgate

Tunc simile erit regnum cælorum decem virginibus: quæ accipientes lampades suas exierunt obviam sponso et sponsæ. Quinque autem ex eis erant fatuæ, et quinque prudentes: sed quinque fatuæ, acceptis lampadibus, non sumpserunt oleum secum: prudentes vero acceperunt oleum in vasis suis cum lampadibus. Moram autem faciente sponso, dormitaverunt omnes et dormierunt. Media autem nocte clamor factus est: Ecce sponsus venit, exite obviam ei. Matthew 25:1-6 Vulgatam Clementinam

tunc simile erit regnum caelorum decem virginibus quae accipientes lampadas suas exierunt obviam sponso et sponsae

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be like to ten virgins, who taking their lamps went out to meet the bridegroom and the bride.

quinque autem ex eis erant fatuae et quinque prudentes

And five of them were foolish and five wise.

sed quinque fatuae acceptis lampadibus non sumpserunt oleum secum

But the five foolish, having taken their lamps, did not take oil with them.

prudentes vero acceperunt oleum in vasis suis cum lampadibus

But the wise took oil in their vessels with the lamps.

moram autem faciente sponso dormitaverunt omnes et dormierunt

And the bridegroom tarrying, they all slumbered and slept.

media autem nocte clamor factus est ecce sponsus venit exite obviam ei

And at midnight there was a cry made: Behold the bridegroom cometh. Go ye forth to meet him.

Contrasted with the Clementine 1597 post reformation version of the Jerome Original completed in 405

Here is the Textus Receptus (Received Text) where the Gk νυμφιος (manuscript) appears. The Gk νύμφη is translated bride, whereas νυμφιος in the manuscript for Matthew 25:6 translates as [a] bridegroom.

μεσης δε νυκτος κραυγη γεγονεν ιδου ο νυμφιος ερχεται εξερχεσθε εις απαντησιν αυτου v6

τοτε ομοιωθησεται η βασιλεια των ουρανων δεκα παρθενοις αιτινες λαβουσαι τας λαμπαδας αυτων εξηλθον εις απαντησιν του νυμφιου πεντε δε ησαν εξ αυτων φρονιμοι και αι πεντε μωραι αιτινες μωραι λαβουσαι τας λαμπαδας εαυτων ουκ ελαβον μεθ εαυτων ελαιον αι δε φρονιμοι ελαβον ελαιον εν τοις αγγειοις αυτων μετα των λαμπαδων αυτων χρονιζοντος δε του νυμφιου ενυσταξαν πασαι και εκαθευδον μεσης δε νυκτος κραυγη γεγονεν ιδου ο νυμφιος ερχεται εξερχεσθε εις απαντησιν αυτου. Matthew 25:1-6

And here is the Codex Sinaiticus (Tichendorf) 360AD

τοτε ομοιωθησεται η βασιλεια των ουρανων δεκα παρθενοις αιτινες λαβουσαι τας λαμπαδας αυτων εξηλθον εις υπαντησιν του νυμφιου πεντε δε εξ αυτων ησαν μωραι και πεντε φρονιμοι αι γαρ μωραι λαβουσαι τας λαμπαδας ουκ ελαβον μεθ εαυτων ελαιον αι δε φρονιμοι ελαβον ελαιον εν τοις αγγειοις μετα των λαμπαδων εαυτων χρονιζοντος δε του νυμφιου ενυσταξαν πασαι και εκαθευδον μεσης δε νυκτος κραυγη γεγονεν ιδου ο νυμφιος εξερχεσθε εις απαντησιν. Matthew 25:1-6

The expression with his bride according to your claim, brother is missing from Jerome's Vulgate as it is from both the received Text and Sinaiticus.

But in more ancient Latin and Syrian texts than St Jerome's Latin vulgate of the 4th century it has "and at midnight there was a cry made "behold the bridegroom cometh with his bride go ye out to meet him."

Syriac 2nd Century

ܗܳܝܕܷ݁ܝܢ ܬܷ݁ܕܱ݁ܡܶܐ ܡܰܠܟܾ݁ܘܬ݂ܴܐ ܕܱ݁ܫܡܰܝܳܐ ܂ ܠܱܥܣܰܪ ܒ݁ܬ݂ܾܘܠܴܢ̈ ܂ ܗܳܢܷ̈ܝܢ ܕܱ݁ܢܣܰܒ݂ ܠܱܡܦܻ݁ܕ݂ܰܝ̈ܗܶܝܢ ܁ ܘܰܢܦ݂ܰܩ ܠܾܐܘܪܱܥ ܚܰܬ݂ܢܳܐ ܘܟ݂ܰܠܬ݂ܴܐ ܂ܚܰܡܶܫ ܕܷ݁ܝܢ ܡܶܢܗܶܝܢ ܚܰܟܻ݁ܝ̈ܡܳܢ ܗ̄ܘܰܝ ܂ ܘܚܰܡܶܫ ܣܰܟ݂ܠܴܢ̈ ܂ ܘܗܳܢܷ̈ܝܢ ܣܰܟ݂̈ܠܴܬ݂ܴܐ ܂ ܢܣܰܒ݂ ܠܱܡܦܻ݁ܕ݂ܰܝ̈ܗܶܝܢ ܆ ܘܠܴܐ ܢܣܰܒ݂ ܥܰܡܗܶܝܢ ܡܶܫܚܳܐ ܂ ܗܳܢܷ̈ܝܢ ܕܷ݁ܝܢ ܚܰܟܻ݁ܝ̈ܡܳܬ݂ܴܐ ܆ ܢܣܰܒ݂ ܡܶܫܚܳܐ ܒ݁ܡܳܐܢܷ̈ܐ ܂ ܥܰܡ ܠܱܡܦܻ݁ܕ݂ܰܝ̈ܗܶܝܢ ܂ ܟܱ݁ܕ݂ ܐܱܘܚܰܪ ܕܷ݁ܝܢ ܚܰܬ݂ܢܳܐ ܆ ܢܳܡ ܟܾ݁ܠܗܶܝܢ ܂ ܘܰܕ݂ܡܶܟ݂ ܂ ܘܰܒ݂ܦ݂ܶܠܓ݂ܶܗ ܕ݁ܠܻܠܝܳܐ ܂ ܗܘܳܬ݂ ܩܥܳܬ݂ܴܐ ܂ ܗܳܐ ܚܰܬ݂ܢܳܐ ܐܴܬ݂ܷܐ ܂ ܦܾ݁ܘܩܘ ܠܾܐܘܪܥܶܗ ܂(Peshitta, (Syriac Matthew 25:1-6)

ܘܰܒ݂ܦ݂ܶܠܓ݂ܶܗ ܕ݁ܠܻܠܝܳܐ ܂ ܗܘܳܬ݂ ܩܥܳܬ݂ܴܐ ܂ ܗܳܐ ܚܰܬ݂ܢܳܐ ܐܴܬ݂ܷܐ ܂ ܦܾ݁ܘܩܘ ܠܾܐܘܪܥܶܗ ܂ v6

Inflected (bridegroom) ܚܰܬ݂ܢܳܐ (root) ܚܬܢ

Can I ask where your translation comes from?

 

[Evmur]

So here is the Latin from the Clementine Vulgate

Tunc simile erit regnum cælorum decem virginibus: quæ accipientes lampades suas exierunt obviam sponso et sponsæ. Quinque autem ex eis erant fatuæ, et quinque prudentes: sed quinque fatuæ, acceptis lampadibus, non sumpserunt oleum secum: prudentes vero acceperunt oleum in vasis suis cum lampadibus. Moram autem faciente sponso, dormitaverunt omnes et dormierunt. Media autem nocte clamor factus est: Ecce sponsus venit, exite obviam ei. Matthew 25:1-6 Vulgatam Clementinam

tunc simile erit regnum caelorum decem virginibus quae accipientes lampadas suas exierunt obviam sponso et sponsae

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be like to ten virgins, who taking their lamps went out to meet the bridegroom and the bride.

quinque autem ex eis erant fatuae et quinque prudentes

And five of them were foolish and five wise.

sed quinque fatuae acceptis lampadibus non sumpserunt oleum secum

But the five foolish, having taken their lamps, did not take oil with them.

prudentes vero acceperunt oleum in vasis suis cum lampadibus

But the wise took oil in their vessels with the lamps.

moram autem faciente sponso dormitaverunt omnes et dormierunt

And the bridegroom tarrying, they all slumbered and slept.

media autem nocte clamor factus est ecce sponsus venit exite obviam ei

And at midnight there was a cry made: Behold the bridegroom cometh. Go ye forth to meet him.

Contrasted with the Clementine 1597 post reformation version of the Jerome Original completed in 405

Here is the Textus Receptus (Received Text) where the Gk νυμφιος (manuscript) appears. The Gk νύμφη is translated bride, whereas νυμφιος in the manuscript for Matthew 25:6 translates as [a] bridegroom.

μεσης δε νυκτος κραυγη γεγονεν ιδου ο νυμφιος ερχεται εξερχεσθε εις απαντησιν αυτου v6

τοτε ομοιωθησεται η βασιλεια των ουρανων δεκα παρθενοις αιτινες λαβουσαι τας λαμπαδας αυτων εξηλθον εις απαντησιν του νυμφιου πεντε δε ησαν εξ αυτων φρονιμοι και αι πεντε μωραι αιτινες μωραι λαβουσαι τας λαμπαδας εαυτων ουκ ελαβον μεθ εαυτων ελαιον αι δε φρονιμοι ελαβον ελαιον εν τοις αγγειοις αυτων μετα των λαμπαδων αυτων χρονιζοντος δε του νυμφιου ενυσταξαν πασαι και εκαθευδον μεσης δε νυκτος κραυγη γεγονεν ιδου ο νυμφιος ερχεται εξερχεσθε εις απαντησιν αυτου. Matthew 25:1-6

And here is the Codex Sinaiticus (Tichendorf) 360AD

τοτε ομοιωθησεται η βασιλεια των ουρανων δεκα παρθενοις αιτινες λαβουσαι τας λαμπαδας αυτων εξηλθον εις υπαντησιν του νυμφιου πεντε δε εξ αυτων ησαν μωραι και πεντε φρονιμοι αι γαρ μωραι λαβουσαι τας λαμπαδας ουκ ελαβον μεθ εαυτων ελαιον αι δε φρονιμοι ελαβον ελαιον εν τοις αγγειοις μετα των λαμπαδων εαυτων χρονιζοντος δε του νυμφιου ενυσταξαν πασαι και εκαθευδον μεσης δε νυκτος κραυγη γεγονεν ιδου ο νυμφιος εξερχεσθε εις απαντησιν. Matthew 25:1-6

The expression with his bride according to your claim, brother is missing from Jerome's Vulgate as it is from both the received Text and Sinaiticus.



Syriac 2nd Century

ܗܳܝܕܷ݁ܝܢ ܬܷ݁ܕܱ݁ܡܶܐ ܡܰܠܟܾ݁ܘܬ݂ܴܐ ܕܱ݁ܫܡܰܝܳܐ ܂ ܠܱܥܣܰܪ ܒ݁ܬ݂ܾܘܠܴܢ̈ ܂ ܗܳܢܷ̈ܝܢ ܕܱ݁ܢܣܰܒ݂ ܠܱܡܦܻ݁ܕ݂ܰܝ̈ܗܶܝܢ ܁ ܘܰܢܦ݂ܰܩ ܠܾܐܘܪܱܥ ܚܰܬ݂ܢܳܐ ܘܟ݂ܰܠܬ݂ܴܐ ܂ܚܰܡܶܫ ܕܷ݁ܝܢ ܡܶܢܗܶܝܢ ܚܰܟܻ݁ܝ̈ܡܳܢ ܗ̄ܘܰܝ ܂ ܘܚܰܡܶܫ ܣܰܟ݂ܠܴܢ̈ ܂ ܘܗܳܢܷ̈ܝܢ ܣܰܟ݂̈ܠܴܬ݂ܴܐ ܂ ܢܣܰܒ݂ ܠܱܡܦܻ݁ܕ݂ܰܝ̈ܗܶܝܢ ܆ ܘܠܴܐ ܢܣܰܒ݂ ܥܰܡܗܶܝܢ ܡܶܫܚܳܐ ܂ ܗܳܢܷ̈ܝܢ ܕܷ݁ܝܢ ܚܰܟܻ݁ܝ̈ܡܳܬ݂ܴܐ ܆ ܢܣܰܒ݂ ܡܶܫܚܳܐ ܒ݁ܡܳܐܢܷ̈ܐ ܂ ܥܰܡ ܠܱܡܦܻ݁ܕ݂ܰܝ̈ܗܶܝܢ ܂ ܟܱ݁ܕ݂ ܐܱܘܚܰܪ ܕܷ݁ܝܢ ܚܰܬ݂ܢܳܐ ܆ ܢܳܡ ܟܾ݁ܠܗܶܝܢ ܂ ܘܰܕ݂ܡܶܟ݂ ܂ ܘܰܒ݂ܦ݂ܶܠܓ݂ܶܗ ܕ݁ܠܻܠܝܳܐ ܂ ܗܘܳܬ݂ ܩܥܳܬ݂ܴܐ ܂ ܗܳܐ ܚܰܬ݂ܢܳܐ ܐܴܬ݂ܷܐ ܂ ܦܾ݁ܘܩܘ ܠܾܐܘܪܥܶܗ ܂(Peshitta, (Syriac Matthew 25:1-6)

ܘܰܒ݂ܦ݂ܶܠܓ݂ܶܗ ܕ݁ܠܻܠܝܳܐ ܂ ܗܘܳܬ݂ ܩܥܳܬ݂ܴܐ ܂ ܗܳܐ ܚܰܬ݂ܢܳܐ ܐܴܬ݂ܷܐ ܂ ܦܾ݁ܘܩܘ ܠܾܐܘܪܥܶܗ ܂ v6

Inflected (bridegroom) ܚܰܬ݂ܢܳܐ (root) ܚܬܢ

Can I ask where your translation comes from?

Alas

All I have is the margin of the ARV which says "other ancient manuscripts add and the bride" I admit this is weak and yet as I said whether she is mentioned or not she is still there. The virgins are bridal attendants, they are not the bride.

# 2 St Jeromes sheeps, who are they? will show what I see as his dilemma again but this time with much greater scripture backing.

 

[Evmur]

I think the parables context is on being ready and full of the Spirit of God for the Lords coming. The coming of the Lord accompanied by his Bride is scriptural . When King Jesus descends, believers will rise to meet Him in the clouds and then promptly proceed to escort Him and His angelic host back to earth. I would prefer not to get into a lengthy discourse of the greek on the details of the this event. A lot of work . But Italics is the gist of it.

but they are not filled with oil, even their lamps were not filled. only they brought took oil with them. There is another problem with saying the oil represents the Holy Ghost in this parable in the response of the wise to the foolish that they should go to those who bought and sold to get oil.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Alas

All I have is the margin of the ARV which says "other ancient manuscripts add and the bride" I admit this is weak and yet as I said whether she is mentioned or not she is still there. The virgins are bridal attendants, they are not the bride.

# 2 St Jeromes sheeps, who are they? will show what I see as his dilemma again but this time with much greater scripture backing.

Well I look forward to reading that second point you are going to make to reinforce the argument implied in the first point. Whilst I wait for that I will source the index reference from the ASV and find the codex source.

 

[Evmur]

Well I look forward to reading that second point you are going to make to reinforce the argument implied in the first point. Whilst I wait for that I will source the index reference from the ASV and find the codex source.

good luck with that, I have tried ... you betcha.

 

[riverhooks]

but they are not filled with oil, even their lamps were not filled. only they brought took oil with them. There is another problem with saying the oil represents the Holy Ghost in this parable in the response of the wise to the foolish that they should go to those who bought and sold to get oil.

That’s exactly right one half of them were not filled with oil, It is a parable the foolish virgins. They are fully one half of the company / they were not ready for the return of the Bridegroom. The Lord expounding the difference between being ready and not being ready. If you do the 10 previous and after scriptures for context or This likening is further expounded , two woman are at a mill one taken another left, beginning in verse 36 ( You know not the day or hour of the Lords return) verse 44 Be Ready. Chapter 25 is a continuation of this thought. And also being a good steward. The Kingdom of heaven is like 24:41 one shall be taken and another left ? 5 shall be taken and 5 shall be left ?Five were ready five were not ? What is the oil Evmur? How do you see it ? Not that I will not continue to see it as representing the Love of God ?. Half that thought they were the church were not.

 

[Evmur]

That’s exactly right one half of them were not filled with oil, It is a parable the foolish virgins. They are fully one half of the company / they were not ready for the return of the Bridegroom. The Lord expounding the difference between being ready and not being ready. If you do the 10 previous and after scriptures for context or This likening is further expounded , two woman are at a mill one taken another left, beginning in verse 36 ( You know not the day or hour of the Lords return) verse 44 Be Ready. Chapter 25 is a continuation of this thought. And also being a good steward. The Kingdom of heaven is like 24:41 one shall be taken and another left ? 5 shall be taken and 5 shall be left ?Five were ready five were not ? What is the oil Evmur? How do you see it ? Not that I will not continue to see it as representing the Love of God ?. Half that thought they were the church were not.

But dear bro they ALL slumbered and slept ... surely spirit filled folk do not slumber and sleep.

I admit interpreting the oil is difficult, I am not the only one who thinks so. These virgins were not themselves filled with oil but their lamps. 10 in the bible is a world number, it represents the nations.

But do you see that they are the bridal attendants? they are not the bride. The bride will not seek to enter by knocking.

 

[Evmur]

The Wider Mercy # 2
St Jerome's Sheeps Who Are They?
​

Matthew 25. 31 - 33.
When the son of Man shall come in His glory and all His holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.
and before Him shall be gathered all nations and He shall separate them one from another as a shepherd divideth his shep from his goats.
And He shall set the sheep on His right hand but the goats on the left.

In my first little treatise I attempted to show that St Jerome faced a dilemma in depicting who should be the church, I concede that lacking better scripture support it is a weak case although it is my firmly held conviction that it is so.

Here I believe in this same chapter of Matthew he encounters the very same problem, he knows that he cannot have the church twice depicted in the same story, he has already determined that the sheep set at the Lord's right hand are the church and the goats set upon the left are everybody else.

The word presented to him as "all His holy ones" he translates as "sacredos" which may indeed be translated into english as "holy angels" it may also be translated as "saints."

If it is saints then they are the church and suddenly the whole story takes on a different meaning and I might say makes better sense to the way it has been understood down the centuries.

I don't know how other folks read their bibles, when I read a passage like this I actually visualize the scene in my mind. I can see the Lord sat upon His throne surrounded by His saints and I can see stood before Him and facing Him the sheep on the right hand and the goats on the left.

Now suddenly the interchange makes better sense "Lord when did we see Thee naked and hungry etc" and His reply "in as much as ye did it to one the least of these My brethren ... " I can visualize Him waving His hand toward the saints around Him ... it doesn't quite make sense with Him commending the sheep for ministering to the needs of themselves.

The sheep are not the brethren.

Now whereas in my first post my scripture support was weak in this instance it is very strong indeed for we are quite definitely taught that we the church are not subject to this judgement at all, "we are" says John "passed over from judgement to life" Jesus has been judged on our behalf, found guilty [although innocent] and executed all on our behalf.

Paul teaches us that when He comes God will bring us with Him "don't you know" ... he cries ... that the saints are to judge the world?"

But look here I have something more.

This judgement related in Matthew is the same judgement that is related in Revelations, the Great White Throne judgement. The living and the dead are the sheep and goats. But this judgement takes place AFTER the 1, 000 year reign of Christ. The church will have been raptured 1, 000 years prior to this judgement and will have reigned with Him from heaven for 1, 000 years. The Jews will have reigned with Him on earth for 1, 000 years.

There is no way we will be judged at this judgement, whatever judgement we face for loss or reward it is not this judgement of final destinies for our destiny is already determined. hallelujah.

So who ARE these sheep? they do receive an inheritance. I believe they are the meek who will inherit the earth. There is to be a new earth as well as new heavens and someone will dwell there. Our dwelling is in heaven.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

The Wider Mercy # 2
St Jerome's Sheeps Who Are They?
​

Matthew 25. 31 - 33.
When the son of Man shall come in His glory and all His holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.
and before Him shall be gathered all nations and He shall separate them one from another as a shepherd divideth his shep from his goats.
And He shall set the sheep on His right hand but the goats on the left.

In my first little treatise I attempted to show that St Jerome faced a dilemma in depicting who should be the church, I concede that lacking better scripture support it is a weak case although it is my firmly held conviction that it is so.

Here I believe in this same chapter of Matthew he encounters the very same problem, he knows that he cannot have the church twice depicted in the same story, he has already determined that the sheep set at the Lord's right hand are the church and the goats set upon the left are everybody else.

The word presented to him as "all His holy ones" he translates as "sacredos" which may indeed be translated into english as "holy angels" it may also be translated as "saints."

If it is saints then they are the church and suddenly the whole story takes on a different meaning and I might say makes better sense to the way it has been understood down the centuries.

I don't know how other folks read their bibles, when I read a passage like this I actually visualize the scene in my mind. I can see the Lord sat upon His throne surrounded by His saints and I can see stood before Him and facing Him the sheep on the right hand and the goats on the left.

Now suddenly the interchange makes better sense "Lord when did we see Thee naked and hungry etc" and His reply "in as much as ye did it to one the least of these My brethren ... " I can visualize Him waving His hand toward the saints around Him ... it doesn't quite make sense with Him commending the sheep for ministering to the needs of themselves.

The sheep are not the brethren.

Now whereas in my first post my scripture support was weak in this instance it is very strong indeed for we are quite definitely taught that we the church are not subject to this judgement at all, "we are" says John "passed over from judgement to life" Jesus has been judged on our behalf, found guilty [although innocent] and executed all on our behalf.

Paul teaches us that when He comes God will bring us with Him "don't you know" ... he cries ... that the saints are to judge the world?"

But look here I have something more.

This judgement related in Matthew is the same judgement that is related in Revelations, the Great White Throne judgement. The living and the dead are the sheep and goats. But this judgement takes place AFTER the 1, 000 year reign of Christ. The church will have been raptured 1, 000 years prior to this judgement and will have reigned with Him from heaven for 1, 000 years. The Jews will have reigned with Him on earth for 1, 000 years.

There is no way we will be judged at this judgement, whatever judgement we face for loss or reward it is not this judgement of final destinies for our destiny is already determined. hallelujah.

So who ARE these sheep? they do receive an inheritance. I believe they are the meek who will inherit the earth. There is to be a new earth as well as new heavens and someone will dwell there. Our dwelling is in heaven.

Just a few thoughts, brother, before responding properly.

I am still trying to pin down the reference from the bible you cited. Do you have the ISBN number for the bible please?

Why do you say this parable of the sheep and the goats is the Great White throne judgement?

What do you believe the Bema Seat judgment means?

And do you have an eschatological crononoly that differentiates in time where and when these judgements take place? Specifically the Bema Seat and the Great White Throne?

I agree that the Sheep Nations are not the these my brethren else the expression these my brethren could scarcely be an appropriate judgement when speaking in answer to the sheep nations asking when did we do these things unto thee? Yet neither can that reality of its self explain who the these my brethren are. But I can see that you have given a Greek transliteration to imply your own meaning - so I'll do a Greek parse to open that up a bit later today.

By inference the sheep needing to be identified is as important as needing to identify the these my brethren.

Are there four groups?

The Sheep nations.
The Goat nations.
The these my brethren.
The first resurrection and the raptured saints.

 

[riverhooks]

But dear bro they ALL slumbered and slept ... surely spirit filled folk do not slumber and sleep.


But do you see that they are the bridal attendants? they are not the bride. The bride will not seek to enter by knocking.

But dear bro they ALL slumbered and slept ... surely spirit filled folk do not slumber and sleep.

I admit interpreting the oil is difficult, I am not the only one who thinks so. These virgins were not themselves filled with oil but their lamps. 10 in the bible is a world number, it represents the nations.

But do you see that they are the bridal attendants? they are not the bride. The bride will not seek to enter by knocking.

I was thinking of something else namely a vision of souls being filled with light at the Lords coming and others with no light. As far a the Parable of 10 virgins . I will leave you to discuss that with Rhompheam . I already gave my reply . I misspoke about the oil in this case. Clearly it is with regards to the lamps. An interpretation of oil was not my intent. As I stated previously doing a 10 previous scriptures and 10 after is a good technique to catch the context of what the Lord was saying. I gave my reply but it was not acknowledged . The parable is a continunation of being ready and being a good steward which began in the previous context. It is possible to sleep and have the Holy Spirit trust me I have chronic Sleep Apnea. ( If you filled with Holy Spirit you would know this) oops. You know guys it is possible to split hairs over Jerome , Syrian Texts and slice and dice they used to call it straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. And miss The Lord entirely . Please listen to what He is referring to by going to 10 previous scriptures and the ten after to get the context of the parable. Then maybe read my previous reply again. I am just using the KJV and am not using theology, which I suspect may be a reason why the clarity of what the Lord is saying is obscured . It is not a doctrine or fit into any doctrine other than be ready and be a good steward. There are no chapter breaks in the original text.

 

[Amanuensis]

The parable is to teach believers to be ready by watching and praying and living a life worthy of his sudden appearing.

The bride of the bridegroom is not in the parable.

The virgins are young women who are not yet married who are friends of the bridegroom, in a Jewish wedding custom scenario.

The illustration does not require identifying the bride or talking about how the church is the bride of Christ. That is adding a level of information that Jesus was not trying to discuss at this time.

His point was not to think that you can wait to the last minute when the Lord comes back and get right before you experience the judgments that will be poured out at that time, and be shut out of eternal life and the everlasting kingdom.

Too much is made of oil, and virgins, and brides, and doors. The theological concept is to watch and pray and live ready. Don't fall for the deception that you can get ready when you see the Lord coming. Too late.

If anything the illustration should be, If you have to have your light shining to enter in, and if Doing the Word of God is wise and being a hearer only is foolish, and having your light shining is letting men see your good works so that they may Glorify God then, be wise and be doing good works now, and don't think you can start doing good works at the last minute when the voice of the Archangel announces the rapture of the church. Or something similar to that kind of interpretation.

I think the efforts to apply allegorical meanings and insist on finding the bride in a parable that does not need to include the bride simply because other scriptures refer to the church as the bride is utter confusion.

 

[Gardenias]

But dear bro they ALL slumbered and slept ... surely spirit filled folk do not slumber and sleep.

I admit interpreting the oil is difficult, I am not the only one who thinks so. These virgins were not themselves filled with oil but their lamps. 10 in the bible is a world number, it represents the nations.

But do you see that they are the bridal attendants? they are not the bride. The bride will not seek to enter by knocking.

Bc of their lack of the word in their lives,they had grown lukewarm and leaving to get filled caused them ( those who think the are ready,attending church with itching ears) were NOT READY when the GROOM ( JESUS)came for his BRIDE ( BELIEVERS)

Many will say LORD,DID I NOT..........
HE WILL SAY THE SAME TO THOSE,I NEVER KNEW.....YOU

 

[Amanuensis]

But dear bro they ALL slumbered and slept ... surely spirit filled folk do not slumber and sleep.

I admit interpreting the oil is difficult, I am not the only one who thinks so. These virgins were not themselves filled with oil but their lamps. 10 in the bible is a world number, it represents the nations.

But do you see that they are the bridal attendants? they are not the bride. The bride will not seek to enter by knocking.

I don't see any suggestion that the wise were wrong for falling asleep. If it is a parable instead of an allegory then it is a scene taken from something common to life and in this case a wedding custom. The issue here is not that they slept. The sleeping part is because there was a longer than expected delay in his coming. Jesus is teaching that there might be a longer than expected delay in His return but that believers are to live a life as though he will return at any moment and be found DOING what they were expected to be DOING, which in this case was carry a lit torch in the wedding procession. But the action and parable could have been something different as long as the emphasis is on them DOING what they were supposed to be DOING not simply Believing something was true or not.

The one who built his house on the sand was foolish because he heard the word but did not DO IT.
The one who build his house on the rock was wise because he heard the word and DID IT.

The sudden storm came and the wise stood and the foolish were destroyed. This is the same lesson. The Wise Virgins did what was necessary to have a lit lamp (they took the steps necessary in case there was a long delay) They were therefore able to perform the duty that was expected of them.

The foolish were not able to perform what was expected of them. They did not prepare for a long delay. They thought they would qualify by some last minute effort. It did not work out. They did not take it serious enough to make the preparations needed when they had the time.

How many have wasted time teaching things about this parable as an allegory about other things than what was intended, while living a life where compromise and sin is not dealt with on a personal level thinking that God would over look it all because of Grace or they could say a few hail Marys at the end and it wouldn't matter?

 

[Evmur]

Just a few thoughts, brother, before responding properly.

I am still trying to pin down the reference from the bible you cited. Do you have the ISBN number for the bible please?

Why do you say this parable of the sheep and the goats is the Great White throne judgement?

What do you believe the Bema Seat judgment means?

And do you have an eschatological crononoly that differentiates in time where and when these judgements take place? Specifically the Bema Seat and the Great White Throne?

I agree that the Sheep Nations are not the these my brethren else the expression these my brethren could scarcely be an appropriate judgement when speaking in answer to the sheep nations asking when did we do these things unto thee? Yet neither can that reality of its self explain who the these my brethren are. But I can see that you have given a Greek transliteration to imply your own meaning - so I'll do a Greek parse to open that up a bit later today.

By inference the sheep needing to be identified is as important as needing to identify the these my brethren.

Are there four groups?

The Sheep nations.
The Goat nations.
The these my brethren.
The first resurrection and the raptured saints.

The only no: I can find is RS 813SYX it's a RSV pocket size

There is only one final judgement.

The Bema Seat judgement is for the church, rewards and losses.

I gave good scripture references to show that we do come with the Lord when He comes to judge.

I see the Lord
I see the brethren
I see the sheeps
and I see the goats.

thank you.

 

[Evmur]

I don't see any suggestion that the wise were wrong for falling asleep. If it is a parable instead of an allegory then it is a scene taken from something common to life and in this case a wedding custom. The issue here is not that they slept. The sleeping part is because there was a longer than expected delay in his coming. Jesus is teaching that there might be a longer than expected delay in His return but that believers are to live a life as though he will return at any moment and be found DOING what they were expected to be DOING, which in this case was carry a lit torch in the wedding procession. But the action and parable could have been something different as long as the emphasis is on them DOING what they were supposed to be DOING not simply Believing something was true or not.

The one who built his house on the sand was foolish because he heard the word but did not DO IT.
The one who build his house on the rock was wise because he heard the word and DID IT.

The sudden storm came and the wise stood and the foolish were destroyed. This is the same lesson. The Wise Virgins did what was necessary to have a lit lamp (they took the steps necessary in case there was a long delay) They were therefore able to perform the duty that was expected of them.

The foolish were not able to perform what was expected of them. They did not prepare for a long delay. They thought they would qualify by some last minute effort. It did not work out. They did not take it serious enough to make the preparations needed when they had the time.

How many have wasted time teaching things about this parable as an allegory about other things than what was intended, while living a life where compromise and sin is not dealt with on a personal level thinking that God would over look it all because of Grace or they could say a few hail Marys at the end and it wouldn't matter?

You are saying that the wise maidens were saved by works, as were the sheep rewarded for their deeds. I say that not argue the point but as a simple statement of fact .

If I get around to The Wider Mercy # 3 Sundry scriptures and considerations. I hope to address this matter.