Is Paul or Jesus your main guide?

Pilgrimshope · Feb 18, 2022

Paul is a difficult read and easily distortable it’s easy to misunderstand what Paul’s actually saying if we don’t first believe the gospel of the kingdom that he’s preaching and explaining

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s easy to read a few verses of Paul and come to the conclusion “ I don’t need to be diligent , I don’t need to repent and examine my actions I don’t need to do anything I’m already saved because of “this here “verse

very bad move to try to exalt anyone apart from Jesus and it seems to happen a lot with the “ Paulians”

Pilgrimshope · Feb 18, 2022

Blik said:

“And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭2:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he had respect unto them because of his promise to Abraham and the fact they were oppressed and cried out

they then broke his covenant

“But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭32:15-17, 19-20‬ ‭

they lost the respect he had unto them by thier works of idolatry that’s the key what they did and what happened to them is written for us as an admonishment and warning

“Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭10:6-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they didn’t respect him was the issue he. Egan with respect unto them and they spit in his face again and again and ignored his words to them and so we’re cursed for their works and made a proverb and by word a warning to all not to follow their example

Amanuensis · Feb 18, 2022

Blik said:

There is no contradiction between Jesus and Paul's teachings. Therefore to think that there is would be a misunderstanding of one or the other or both.

From what you wrote it seems that you might be thinking that the Levitical typology is supposed to be spiritually discerned for a fuller revelation of Jesus. However the shadows such as the brazen altar which are shadows cannot give the full revelation. We have an altar that those who serve the temple do not have the right to eat from is from Hebrews, which may have been written by Paul and probably was. Hebrews has many admonitions for the believers to not be pressured by those that would tell them that they must observe feasts, eat certain foods or think that doing so will give them a fuller revelation about Jesus. He directs them away from that mindset that one should examine the details of the brazen altar in Jerusalem for spiritual understanding or to think that there is some hidden "strengthening of the heart" that can be had by observing Jewish customs, and instead he tells them to go to Jesus out side of the city, who was rejected and despised by the Jews and bear his reproach which they will if they don't follow their demands to observe these customs.

The Levitical systems must not be mixed with faith in Christ and only Grace can strengthen the heart not some new revelation about the place settings of the Passover held in the City of Jerusalem because we have no continuing city in this world but seek one to come, so let us go outside the Levitical system, leaving it behind and go to that altar that is found only in Jesus Christ.

Jesus taught this and so did Paul if one has ears to hear. The problem is that today we still have those trying to mix traditional, cultic, systems and ceremonies with faith in Christ so that they can have an outward tangible form of religion that gives them a sense of "doing something" to earn a rightstanding with God. It is the nature of the unregenerate.

ewq1938 · Feb 19, 2022

Runningman said:

You are the one who is constantly questioning one of Christ's Apostles. I don't do that and it's false to suggest anyone prefers Paul over Jesus. That's just dumb. You said you believe Paul is a true Apostle and never contradicts Jesus. I don't believe you. You are challenging Paul all the time. You clearly think there is an issue with Paul.

ewq1938 · Feb 19, 2022

Runningman said:

This is an anti-Pauline type of question. Stop trying to drive a wedge between Christ and Paul!

Runningman · Feb 19, 2022

ewq1938 said:

God is not threatened by questions the same way you seem to be.

The answer to the question I asked you is that the gospel of salvation came exclusively and solely through Jesus Christ of Nazareth as Paul rightly said in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The purpose of Paul's existence in the church is not that he was needed to to complete the gospel message, but rather Paul served as a missionary, risking his life to reach the gentiles:

Acts 22:21 KJV
21And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

You seem to be anti-Christ given how protective you are of Paul.

Runningman · Feb 19, 2022

ewq1938 said:

Apostles aren't above being questioned the same way God is. You're getting worked up over your opinion that apostles can't be questioned. However, Paul opposed Peter to his face (Galatians 2:11-13) but you're saying that if one of us do it then we're wrong. Let me remind you that we are all one in Christ Jesus. Paul or Peter is not superior to the rank and file pew warmer or forum dweller, but rather all laborers receive the same wages and many who are last will be first. That's exactly what Jesus taught.

Galatians 2:11-13
11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

jb · Feb 19, 2022

Is Paul or Jesus your main guide?

Click to expand...

I would have thought that the spiritually logical thing to do was to follow the directions and decrees of BOTH of them, as their source is the same!

The Corinthian Church had the same kind of problem, Paul deals with it in 1Cor 3v1-8.

Blik · Feb 19, 2022

jb said:

We are all agreed that Paul speaks the truth and the truth is of Christ. What I wanted us to discuss is the difference in the approach to the truth between Paul and Christ. Paul speaks of doctrine, explaining Christ. Christ speaks of following him in spirit and truth--Christ speaks of transforming lives by how they live, Paul speaks of how people think.

ewq1938 · Feb 19, 2022

Runningman said:

Wrong. Attacking Paul all the time like you do is anti-Christ because he is a representative of Christ, chosen by Christ. You're a Sabbath keeper right? That's why you don't like Paul, because he spoke against the law and said things like, "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

Old:

G3822
παλαιόω
palaioō
pal-ah-yo'-o
From G3820; to make (passively become) worn out, or declare obsolete: - decay, make (wax) old.
Total KJV occurrences: 4

Amen Paul. Some will hate you for saying that.

Nehemiah6 · Feb 19, 2022

Blik said:

Well the spiritual battle begins in the mind, so while Paul and Christ express themselves differently (which is to be expected since Jesus is God) the teaching remains the same. Paul is also speaking about transformed lives, which begin with the transformation of the mind.

ewq1938 · Feb 19, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

Exactly. Paul and Christ's teachings are in union. Paul was taught directly by Christ.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Runningman · Feb 19, 2022

ewq1938 said:

Your standard of what constitutes an attack and anti-Christ attitude is feelings-based not scripture-based.

As I showed you before, Paul opposed Peter, a handpicked disciple and apostle of Jesus Christ. I’m not even opposing Paul, i actually agree with everything he says. So much for the straw man you’re creating here just because you seem to want to argue and debate anyone who even speaks about Paul.

Now when anyone, anywhere, anytime, questions or critiques an apostle you have to call them anti-Christ.

Galatians 2:11 KJV
11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

By your own subjective and unBiblical standard you have to admit that Peter is anti-Christ. That’s pretty bad to be honest.

John146 · Feb 19, 2022

ewq1938 said:

My forgiveness is not based upon forgiving others as it was for the Jew concerning the kingdom of heaven. Paul makes this clear for the body of Christ. Our sins are forgiven because of the blood of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 6
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Ephesians 1
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

ewq1938 · Feb 19, 2022

Runningman said:

There is no evidence this was that Peter. So you have no argument here.

This is just typical imaginary Anti-Paul false non-sense.

Runningman · Feb 19, 2022

ewq1938 said:

Your ignorance appears to be invincible. This will be me last reply to you on this matter.

The word of God refutes you. This is talking about Paul opposing Peter the apostle to the circumcision.

Galatians 2:7-11
7But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto 8(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles 9And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 10Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

ewq1938 · Feb 19, 2022

Runningman said:

Your constant insults reveal much. I'll defer to the wisdom of Clarke on this matter:

When Peter was come to Antioch - There has been a controversy whether Πετρος, Peter, here should not be read Κηφας, Kephas; and whether this Kephas was not a different person from Peter the apostle. This controversy has lasted more than 1500 years, and is not yet settled. Instead of Πετρος, Peter, ABCH, several others of good note, with the Syriac, Erpenian, Coptic, Sahidic, Ethiopic, Armenian, later Syriac in the margin, Vulgate, and several of the Greek fathers, read Κηφας. But whichsoever of these readings we adopt, the controversy is the same; for the great question is, whether this Peter or Kephas, no matter which name we adopt, be the same with Peter the apostle?

Runningman · Feb 19, 2022

ewq1938 said:

I apologize if you felt insulted by that, but my intention is to help you look in the mirror. Calling someone ignorant is not derogatory or abusive, but rather just an inconvenient truth in this case. You’re a bit emotional and aren’t seeing clearly. Sometimes directness helps.

Galatians 2 says this is Peter (Cephas) and that’s an objective fact. You need to set your feelings aside when you come here and put on your scholar hat.

ewq1938 · Feb 19, 2022

Runningman said:

You are still being offensive. It's a bad habit you have and I have noticed it before. I cited a scholar's opinion and I agree with him. There are three Peters mentioned (one by the actual name of Cephas which is same meaning as Petros) and it isn't Peter of the 12 disciples in each example.

Gill:

Galatians 2:11
But when Peter was come to Antioch,.... The Alexandrian copy, and others, and the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions, instead of "Peter", read "Cephas", who, by some ancient writers, is said to be not Peter the Apostle, named Cephas by Christ, but one of the seventy disciples. So Clemens (h) says, that Cephas, of whom Paul speaks, that when he came to Antioch he withstood him to his face, was one of the seventy disciples who had the same name with Peter the Apostle: and Jerom says (i) that there were some who were of opinion, that Cephas, of whom Paul writes that he withstood him to his face, was not the Apostle Peter, but one of the seventy disciples called by that name

Runningman · Feb 19, 2022

ewq1938 said:

You are still being offensive. It's a bad habit you have and I have noticed it before. I cited a scholar's opinion and I agree with him. There are three Peters mentioned (one by the actual name of Cephas which is same meaning as Petros) and it isn't Peter of the 12 disciples in each example.

Gill:

Galatians 2:11
But when Peter was come to Antioch,.... The Alexandrian copy, and others, and the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions, instead of "Peter", read "Cephas", who, by some ancient writers, is said to be not Peter the Apostle, named Cephas by Christ, but one of the seventy disciples. So Clemens (h) says, that Cephas, of whom Paul speaks, that when he came to Antioch he withstood him to his face, was one of the seventy disciples who had the same name with Peter the Apostle: and Jerom says (i) that there were some who were of opinion, that Cephas, of whom Paul writes that he withstood him to his face, was not the Apostle Peter, but one of the seventy disciples called by that name

That's called desperation for Galatians 2 to not be about Peter (Cephas) the apostle due to conflict between two God-ordained apostles.

Is Paul or Jesus your main guide?

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