's' no such thing as human freewill

[riverhooks]

There may be very few truths that wholly express the fulness of truth - save for where the Father was pleased to make it so. In Christ by Christ and to the glory of the Father and the Son. Variations of that are always wholly true - in the fulness sense. What I wrote (my own words and quoting no others' words) was a truth - and it expressly speaks to the question of freewill. I should have though that was self evident. Nor do I see a need to make allowances for brethren who culturally appear to believe that endless hostility and argument are of themselves worthwhile. My skin was stripped from my mind when I was a small child so I don't flinch. No need for skin when you don't flinch.

You appear to be concerned with Unconditional Election. I wrote about free will and alluded to a reality of many folks conversions (in keeping with the threads presentation) that are often set at variance with one another. Some say that they chose Christ (Freewill) and others that Christ chose them (Predestination). I say that if men did choose Christ unto being born again it was only an illusion - as real as it may have been and in many fits of tears and groans because of sin - it is an allusion when that sense of choosing Christ - in that instant of being saved - becomes the basis for their walk. That is an inference to Total Depravity. I didn't make any reference to Calvin - however. I also posted a video @#171. We should all be challenged by how we understand our calling. We live in exceptional times and there is no liberty to argue with one another - and then come to no proper basis to agree on why we must bear with one another in order to find a more mature basis to walk together in a time when the wolves are already devouring the flocks.

I also say that there is a choosing to be made - so I have written for decades on that theme in order to try and settle others' minds in a hope to encourage more growth. In face to face situations I just present a brass wall. No thin skin with me - I don't have any skin.

Peace , then . What I see that you may not, comes from being on a Christian Discipleship Ranch in the Jesus People days for a year 75-76 when I was 25-26 years old The Lord was in the midst of the camp, evangleism went forward God set over us pastors who fed us with knowledge and understanding. The ranch got a Calvinist overseer , the church split. The brothers that I knew began to acquire libraries of reformist theology. I asked one of these brothers new to the Calvinist camp why they didn't do much evangelism anymore he said, he didn' t know that someone was one of the elect or not. The revival died. Those were the days. I was just into following Jesus and His Word. Being a disciple. I recently ended a 6 year chat with a Calvinist over doctrine. I like to talk about Jesus . I only know the lovingkindness of the Lord and the fellowship of God. In a deeply personal fashion. Seen His love for His people , His longsuffering during my seasons of backsliding > Yeah , but for the grace of God there goes I . I never was into quibbling over the 5 points of Calvinism , I'm a student of the Bible not a theologian . Dependance on God and the Scriptures is enough . I just hate to see the contention this doctrine has caused. Why not emphasize a personal relationship with God ? at every level . Instead of choking Baby Christians with the pursuit of the high ground of their election and inability to respond to God. Man is able to respond to God man has a freewill . If you don't believe you do, not on me to convince you otherwise. Just to pray , which I do. All for now

 

[Evmur]

Since you cannot be convinced your wrong,ITS the piggy box for you .....ciaoView attachment 236440

Billy Graham's view is not my view, much as I admired Billy, his theology is not mine. He retracted from those remarks somewhat.

stop lumping folks with views and opinions that they do not hold.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Peace , then . What I see that you may not, comes from being on a Christian Discipleship Ranch in the Jesus People days for a year 75-76 when I was 25-26 years old The Lord was in the midst of the camp, evangleism went forward God set over us pastors who fed us with knowledge and understanding. The ranch got a Calvinist overseer , the church split. The brothers that I knew began to acquire libraries of reformist theology. I asked one of these brothers new to the Calvinist camp why they didn't do much evangelism anymore he said, he didn' t know that someone was one of the elect or not. The revival died. Those were the days. I was just into following Jesus and His Word. Being a disciple. I recently ended a 6 year chat with a Calvinist over doctrine. I like to talk about Jesus . I only know the lovingkindness of the Lord and the fellowship of God. In a deeply personal fashion. Seen His love for His people , His longsuffering during my seasons of backsliding > Yeah , but for the grace of God there goes I . I never was into quibbling over the 5 points of Calvinism , I'm a student of the Bible not a theologian . Dependance on God and the Scriptures is enough . I just hate to see the contention this doctrine has caused. Why not emphasize a personal relationship with God ? at every level . Instead of choking Baby Christians with the pursuit of the high ground of their election and inability to respond to God. Man is able to respond to God man has a freewill . If you don't believe you do, not on me to convince you otherwise. Just to pray , which I do. All for now

That account is not uncommon in the US given the Jesus Movement and its breadth of expression. And at its heart is the witness of the grace of God in saving people and then those believers being enthusiastic for Christ. I use the expression enthusiastic to make a point.

Enthusiasm itself with no reference to reformed doctrine can in the end mean a liberty that gives rise to serious error and a misshapen walk. You and I would thank God that when our own walks are misshapen and we backslide in seasons the Lord does restore us and we sense again just how much we depend on Him to guide us and make us profitable servants. The Word is the means we all came to the Father and the means by which we will be made full in Him for His glory. I am never more surprised when I have fallen into a fleshy and indifferent walk at just how much the restoration of my obedience always reminds me why I am so utterly grateful that the Father knew me before I was even conceived in my mothers womb. I take that to be true for every soul of man. And I am sobered that it speaks of reprobation of some and election to adoption of others by proven obedience or disobedience - just according to the fruit we bear. Seeing that we are all yet alive - my hope is that in the end we will all come to a true obedience in our own lives that we will none of us find any means to boast and make ruin of it - despite that we came to obedience in the end.

If we try to focus on one thing - we may then mistakenly press a great truth to the exclusion of other truths. It is our walk where that balance is worked out. And our reward will be the measure of it when Christ apportions our part in His coming kingdom.

It is the Cross unto death in Christ by the putting to death of the old man - and the grave as the means to be removed by faith into that meaning when we are born again and learn to walk in newness of life. But self only has a part in yielding to God - enthusiasm will not of itself produce fruit. That is stark - but that is the reformed faith.

 

[Magenta]

I don’t have a problem with any of what you have said. With the exception of freewill is a myth. Freewill is in the bible 18 times specifically according to Strongs concordance. The Bible is not a myth. There seems to be a lack of transparency in what are talking about specifically when it comes to discussing freewill. As far as agreement with the above for a non-Calvinist as myself it seems to be accurate but is often a segway into the 5 points of Calvinism.

I count freewill being in the Bible only four times in KJV, as a free will gift offering to the LORD. NIV has the same 22 times. The words are not used in any other context. Having said that, it is apparent to me that people conflate making choices with having free will... and yet, it is not the same thing. Perhaps it is too fine a distinction for many to make?

 

[Rhomphaeam]

"Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. “For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds." Matthew 16:24-27

"τοτε ο ιησους ειπεν τοις μαθηταις αυτου ει τις θελει οπισω μου ελθειν απαρνησασθω εαυτον και αρατω τον σταυρον αυτου και ακολουθειτω μοι ος γαρ αν θελη την ψυχην αυτου σωσαι απολεσει αυτην ος δ αν απολεση την ψυχην αυτου ενεκεν εμου ευρησει αυτην τι γαρ ωφελειται ανθρωπος εαν τον κοσμον ολον κερδηση την δε ψυχην αυτου ζημιωθη η τι δωσει ανθρωπος ανταλλαγμα της ψυχης αυτου μελλει γαρ ο υιος του ανθρωπου ερχεσθαι εν τη δοξη του πατρος αυτου μετα των αγγελων αυτου και τοτε αποδωσει εκαστω κατα την πραξιν αυτου. " (Matthew 16:24-27). Textus Receptus.

The word life in verse 25 is the Greek ψυχην, transliterated psychén, and translated life. The word soul in verse 26 are the Greek words ψυχην and ψυχης, as in, “κερδηση την δε ψυχην αυτου ζημιωθη η τι δωσει ανθρωπος ανταλλαγμα της ψυχης αυτου μελλει.” Transliterated psychén and psychés respectively. They are both translated soul.

Exploring the precept of wishing or choosing

The Greek says, thelei (θέλω Lexical and θελει manuscript) for wishes (choosing) and means to will or to desire something. This primarily speaks about a reasonable desire to do something that is right. In context of this thread it speaks about a proper response to the gospel itself, and qualifies or proves what follows on from saving faith. The godly desire to follow Christ, while sound in itself is conditional on denying oneself. This is not boulomai (βούλομαι), a determined will to follow Christ. Nor is it zeloo (ζηλόω), to have zeal to follow Christ. Neither is it, speudo (σπεύδω), to earnestly desire to follow Christ. Nor yet, aiteo (αἰτέω), to ask to follow Christ. It is a simple injunction of the Lord to take account of the true cost of discipleship and the only basis for obedience.

“He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honour him.” (John 12:25-26),

It is out of that meaning where this issue of choosing or choice mistakenly arises when utilising the Scripture to claim that new birth or believing the Gospel is a matter of choosing Christ.

However, the real issue is not whether anyone has a choice or else a volitional will to take up their cross and follow Christ - it is whether the soul in verse 25 Gk ψυχην and ψυχης transliterated psychén and psychés respectively - are speaking about new birth. To know that one would also have to parse the Greek from the account of the Lord with Nicodemus where new birth is spoken of.

Whereas, verse 27 clearly defines the saving or else the loosing of the soul as a matter of rewards. In a similar way John 12:25-26 tells us that loving ones own life (soul) or hating ones own life (soul) is defined in being honoured by the Father. Loving ones soul will be met with dishonour and hating ones soul will be met with being honoured. If you can say that the free gift of life will end in your being honoured by the Father - then you are also saying that you are worthy of the death of His Son. That is a blasphemy.

So whilst I see that some brethren are keen to tell others that their doctrine is blasphemous because they refuse the precept that being born again is not a matter of choosing Christ - but rather a matter of being chosen in Christ - the Greek scriptures do not support that former claim at all - only the latter. As far as I can discern @Evmur has made that case from the very title of the thread and held to it in his explanations throughout. He even goes as far as to define what salvation means in its true meaning of spirit, soul and body. And seeing that it is the spirit that is born of the Spirit and the body is saved in the twinkling of an eye at the Lord's return else in the first resurrection - then the only matter has to do with the soul. Therein lies your choice.

 

[Gardenias]

Billy Graham's view is not my view, much as I admired Billy, his theology is not mine. He retracted from those remarks somewhat.

stop lumping folks with views and opinions that they do not hold.

Billy Graham did not believe this heresy of "WIDER MERCY" which is nothing more than religious universalism.
The word of Jesus MUST be preached and HEARD!

This says that a person does NOT have to have heard of Jesus and his salvation and does NOT know him but can worship budda,Hinduism, ect,ect as long as they are SINCERE in their beliefs,he will will give them status...... poppycock,bull heresy.

 

[Gardenias]

I count freewill being in the Bible only four times in KJV, as a free will gift offering to the LORD. NIV has the same 22 times. The words are not used in any other context. Having said that, it is apparent to me that people conflate making choices with having free will... and yet, it is not the same thing. Perhaps it is too fine a distinction for many to make?

I wish there was an eye roll emoji.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

I count freewill being in the Bible only four times in KJV, as a free will gift offering to the LORD. NIV has the same 22 times. The words are not used in any other context. Having said that, it is apparent to me that people conflate making choices with having free will... and yet, it is not the same thing. Perhaps it is too fine a distinction for many to make?

It certainly is too fine a distinction and thus refused even when it is laid down in plain Greek.

I would have sought out a rolling eyes emoji but I was worried that you would think me saucy.

 

[Magenta]

It certainly is too fine a distinction and thus refused even when it is laid down in plain Greek.

I would have sought out a rolling eyes emoji but I was worried that you would think me saucy.

Hello, hello I do not care for the term free will, since the will is constrained by
too many factors to truly be considered such. Self will is a more appropriate term.

I see you joined while I was away for a couple of months. In that case:

Welcome!

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Hello, hello I do not care for the term free will, since the will is constrained by
too many factors to truly be considered such. Self will is a more appropriate term.

I see you joined while I was away for a couple of months. In that case:

Welcome!

Thank you very much Magenta. Charmed I'm sure.

I read your point about [the] free will (volition) and your preferred use of [the] Self will in the thread somewhere whilst I was reading it several days ago. Just as here - it makes me think - but not sure how to express it for now. God Bless sister.

 

[Gardenias]

@Rhomphaeam
I pray your forgiveness and apologize for the hurt that I caused.
Having slung mud at your house was unjust and uncalled for .

 

[Rhomphaeam]

@Rhomphaeam
I pray your forgiveness and apologize for the hurt that I caused.
Having slung mud at your house was unjust and uncalled for .

Thank you, brother. Freely received and forgiveness freely given. Grateful for your grace and humility. May the Lord lead us all into a more fruitful understanding and show us how to humble ourselves to serve one another is His peace. As you have now done. I also offer my own stiff neck and ask the Lord to give me greater grace also. God bless you, brother.

 

[Gardenias]

Thank you, brother. Freely received and grateful for your grace and humility. May the Lord lead us all into a more fruitful understanding and show us how to humble ourselves to serve one another is His peace. As you have now done. I also offer my own stiff neck and ask the Lord to give me greater grace also. God bless you, brother.

Thank you,
Pray that the Lord will still the impulsivity to speak before I think.
I need to apply swift to hear slow to speak most often.

Lol btw I'm female.

 

[Gardenias]

@Evmur
I ask your forgiveness as well,I'm sorry for being antagonistic towards you.

I'm still ,every day " working out my own salvation with fear and trembling".

When I stand before our Lord,for I have no right to decide who is or isn't, I want my account to be as clean as lambs wool by giving into the Spirit for correction.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Thank you,
Pray that the Lord will still the impulsivity to speak before I think.
I need to apply swift to hear slow to speak most often.

Lol btw I'm female.

Oops - sister. I will pray as you have asked. Now that I know that you are a sister I think my mind will work better when reflecting on your posts if I do comment. Many brothers do not really understand the portion of women in Christ - myself I have known it for decades. It is a very serious difficulty that sisters have to navigate the stubborn male and at the same time to know the Lord's will in matters that often do fall into the account of the men. Yet I have been blessed to know some exceptional sisters who never did transgress the boundaries set by God whilst we are in this tent - yet have been remarkable in their understanding and often very prophetic in their calling. It's actually far harder for a sister to serve the Lord at the well in the churches than it is for a brother in my experience. What a God we serve! I feel sure you are just fine sister.

 

[Gardenias]

Thank you.
I've been serving since I was 19,and still am just a child in the Lord,hungry for more learning.

 

[riverhooks]

Thank you.
I've been serving since I was 19,and still am just a child in the Lord,hungry for more learning.

Freewill is 18 times mentioned in the Old Testatment according to Strongs Concordance. Freewill Offerings are mentioned in the New Testament with regard to his royal priesthood , offering up spiritual sacrifices to God continually, lifting up holy hands, offering the sacrifice of praise to God continually Kudos for taking on the Spirit of Error . Half of the chat contributors to this blog for whatever reason are usurping the revelation of scripture for their own or a modified theologic context usually Calvin, or Luther or both. Not my circus not my monkeys. Let them believe what they want . All you need is Jesus and a dependence on the Holy Spirit to lead you as you grow and I grow by the way in Christ. God has a remnant . Not everyone that says to Him , Lord , Lord shall enter the kingdom of Heaven but He that doeth the will of the Father. His will is His Word. "Be ye doers of the Word"By accepting Luthers bondage of the will and later Calvins 5 points . Reformist theologians have done themselves and the world a great disservice and continue to represent a another gospel and a different Jesus. Majoring in Minors they simply double down on their error when reproved and continue to use the Bible as a buffet picking and choosing their context because their ideas are coming from beliefs foreign to the Bible . It is hard to get a straight answer because the entire belief system is comprised of worn out arguments and heresies that you can reprove until the second coming. Most will simply fall back on their rationale. They reserve the right to be offended , rather than change the parameters of what offends them or admit they are wrong. It's a jungle out there or rather a spiritual minefield. Anyway Thanks for Trusting The Lord against these heretics. To stay in context I'll close my statement with freewill is a given in the Bible. They won't use scripture except in context of a rather chronic scripture wresting infection. I don't have enough good words to express the Joy in the Lord their faith has brought me.

 

[Gardenias]

Freewill is 18 times mentioned in the Old Testatment according to Strongs Concordance. Freewill Offerings are mentioned in the New Testament with regard to his royal priesthood , offering up spiritual sacrifices to God continually, lifting up holy hands, offering the sacrifice of praise to God continually Kudos for taking on the Spirit of Error . Half of the chat contributors to this blog for whatever reason are usurping the revelation of scripture for their own or a modified theologic context usually Calvin, or Luther or both. Not my circus not my monkeys. Let them believe what they want . All you need is Jesus and a dependence on the Holy Spirit to lead you as you grow and I grow by the way in Christ. God has a remnant . Not everyone that says to Him , Lord , Lord shall enter the kingdom of Heaven but He that doeth the will of the Father. His will is His Word. "Be ye doers of the Word"By accepting Luthers bondage of the will and later Calvins 5 points . Reformist theologians have done themselves and the world a great disservice and continue to represent a another gospel and a different Jesus. Majoring in Minors they simply double down on their error when reproved and continue to use the Bible as a buffet picking and choosing their context because their ideas are coming from beliefs foreign to the Bible . It is hard to get a straight answer because the entire belief system is comprised of worn out arguments and heresies that you can reprove until the second coming. Most will simply fall back on their rationale. They reserve the right to be offended , rather than change the parameters of what offends them or admit they are wrong. It's a jungle out there or rather a spiritual minefield. Anyway Thanks for Trusting The Lord against these heretics. To stay in context I'll close my statement with freewill is a given in the Bible. They won't use scripture except in context of a rather chronic scripture wresting infection. I don't have enough good words to express the Joy in the Lord their faith has brought me.

I think you meant this in rebuttal to Magenta instead of me. Plz see post# 184.

I believe God gave us the choice of free will to accept or reject his offer of the gift of salvation.

He is sovereign and our creator but he wants us to choose to worship him from a free heart,not bc he makes us.

 

[riverhooks]

I think you meant this in rebuttal to Magenta instead of me. Plz see post# 184.

I believe God gave us the choice of free will to accept or reject his offer of the gift of salvation.

He is sovereign and our creator but he wants us to choose to worship him from a free heart,not bc he makes us.

I totally agree with you on freewill. Never lost mine . I would have noticed I think.

 

[Gardenias]

It was meant for you .

Lol. I have always believed God wants people to turn to him with a willing heart.
He said " I stand at the door and knock if ANY WILL ANSWER ,then we will sup with him and he with us

I looked up the term free will and it's definition to see exactly what God wants. ( in the bible not someone's opionon. )
People need to get serious about what it says and lay off ,I want it to say this........it's about to come to an end ,then it WILL BE TOO LATE TO CHOOSE YOUR DESTINATION.

I would hate to think I HAD TO SERVE GOD BY FORCE! Instead his LOVE overwhelmed me,by exposing who I was , I became clay in the Master's hands.

Someday people will regret not standing in the word but leaning on self and others. It is plain.....whosoever will .....LET HIM COME.