Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
This doesn't make any sense.

It means if someone is already spiritually alive, there is no reason for them to be spiritually reborn. So, only those who are dead spiritually can be born-again.

I never said those who are spiritually alive must be reborn.

The very FACT that they are spiritually alive MEANS that they have been reborn. Do you disagree with that?

 

[justpassinthrough]

It is in scripture.

Please post the scripture that supports your claim.




JPT

 

[Grandpa]

FreeGrace2 said:
Obviously you have no idea what free will is.

So, I'll enlighten you on what it is.

It is the freedom to choose between options. In EVERY case, whether it is about choosing which politial candidate to vote for, or whether to believe or not believe the gospel message.

God created mankind with a conscience by which to recognize right from wrong. Calvinists seem not to understand that.

Like I said, calvinists do not understand what free will is.

[QUOET] Everyone's will is being influenced in one way or another.

That has nothing to do with freedom to choose. Zero. See? You do NOT understand it.


Don't you believe that God created mankind with a conscience? And a conscience chooses which direction to go.


Read Isa 55:7 and you will find out clearly on whom He will have mercy.

Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

I guess calvinists either are ignorant of this verse, or they just outright reject it.

Were you ignorant of this verse, or have you just ourtight rejected it?[/QUOTE]
I read ALL the scriptures and come to the conclusion that DOESN'T cause them to contradict.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


Our "consciences" are constantly being influenced.

 

[rogerg]

Why do you think every choice is "spiritual"? Believing the gospel isn't a spiritual choice. It's a trust issue.

I've posted this many times before, but I'll post again. What do you think it means?

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[rogerg]

God’s not willing that any should perish…

Notice the "to us-ward" -- those are they whom God does is not willing that any should perish. Who are they?
To determine that we need to look at the salutation in chapter 1. Notice below they are those who have obtained faith - the elect, so that does not include everyone.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[2Pe 3:9 KJV] 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[rogerg]

Christ is my foundation. No other foundation can man build upon. Are you calling this a rotten foundation? Is John Calvin and the RCC your foundation?

If you trust in yourself for faith, then your foundation is yourself, not Christ

 

[fredoheaven]

"ye might believe": wait - so you're saying that not everyone who reads believes? Then who is it who comes to believe, and why?

Their belief (the "they" below) came from first having been blessed to believe - a blessing of God. From that blessing they had received eternal life.

[Jhn 20:29 KJV]
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

Blessed are they - happinesss to those who haven't seen yet believe. believing Christ and his gospel is the only we get saved. Acts 16:31, Romans 1:16, Eph. 3:17, 1 Tim. 1:16

 

[rogerg]

The very FACT that they are spiritually alive MEANS that they have been reborn. Do you disagree with that?

Which means they had been dead spiritually before becoming born-again. A spiritually dead person is incapable of giving themselves spiritual live to choose wisely and to give themselves spiritual life as a physically dead person is incapable of giving themselves physical life to choose wisely and to give themselves physical life. So, something/someone else must have intervened that giving that to them.

 

[John146]

Notice the "to us-ward" -- those are they whom God does is not willing that any should perish. Who are they?
To determine that we need to look at the salutation in chapter 1. Notice below they are those who have obtained faith - the elect, so that does not include everyone.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[2Pe 3:9 KJV] 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Jews...Peter is specifically addressing the nation of Israel

 

[John146]

If you trust in yourself for faith, then your foundation is yourself, not Christ

Nope, I've trusted in the d,b,r of Jesus Christ for sins. My belief was not forced upon me. I recognized I was a sinner in need of a Savior.

 

[rogerg]

Blessed are they - happinesss to those who haven't seen yet believe. believing Christ and his gospel is the only we get saved. Acts 16:31, Romans 1:16, Eph. 3:17, 1 Tim. 1:16

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[Eph 3:17 KJV] 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

By Christ's faith(fulness)

[Rom 1:16 KJV] 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The actual living GOSPEL of Christ is the power of God unto salvation. So, their belief is not what brough salvation, instead salvation brought belief.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Obviously you have no idea what free will is.

So, I'll enlighten you on what it is.

It is the freedom to choose between options. In EVERY case, whether it is about choosing which politial candidate to vote for, or whether to believe or not believe the gospel message.

God created mankind with a conscience by which to recognize right from wrong. Calvinists seem not to understand that.

Like I said, calvinists do not understand what free will is.

That has nothing to do with freedom to choose.

Like I said, calvinists do not understand what free will is.

Zero. See? You do NOT understand it.

What I see is that calvinists do not understand free will. What they argue against ISN'T free will.

The following is my quote from one of my posts. Grandpa, you need to figure out how to format your posts so that my quotes don't appear as yours.
"Don't you believe that God created mankind with a conscience? And a conscience chooses which direction to go.

Read Isa 55:7 and you will find out clearly on whom He will have mercy.

Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

I guess calvinists either are ignorant of this verse, or they just outright reject it.

Were you ignorant of this verse, or have you just ourtight rejected it?"

I read ALL the scriptures and come to the conclusion that DOESN'T cause them to contradict.

So? Your conclusion is just faulty.

How come you won't answer my question about the conscience then?

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

So? Read Isa 55:7 and you will learn on whom God DOES have mercy. The verse says so specifically.

Neither of these verses support your non free will notions.

Our "consciences" are constantly being influenced.

So what? God gave you a conscience so you are ABLE to wade through the crap and make right choices.

Since you don't believe in free will, you are admitting that you are basically a puppet or robot. No other "choice" for you.

When you sin, who made that choice?

Please answer. It's basic to this discussion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why do you think every choice is "spiritual"? Believing the gospel isn't a spiritual choice. It's a trust issue.

I've posted this many times before, but I'll post again. What do you think it means?

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

What you fail to grasp is that v.14 teaches that unbeliever cannot understand "the deep things of God" (v.10). And Paul was clear in v.6 to whom he was writing; to the spiritually MATURE.

Even immature believers (babies) cannot understand "the deep things of God". They need "milk and not solid food". Heb 5.

But thanks for blowing off my question.

What you haven't proven is that believing the gospel is a "spiritual choice". It is a matter of trusting what God says.

Calvinists have to "spiritualize" everything to make their theology work.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you trust in yourself for faith, then your foundation is yourself, not Christ

Right, and that is the point.

We DON'T "trust in ourselves for faith". We trust IN Jesus Christ for salvation. What's wrong with that?

Ro 10:10 SAYS that man believes from the heart. That is where we believe from.

Where does your belief come from?

 

[rogerg]

Nope, I've trusted in the d,b,r of Jesus Christ for sins. My belief was not forced upon me. I recognized I was a sinner in need of a Savior.

"My belief was not forced upon me." How did you receive it? Was it obtained by your own intellectual efforts or a gift from God?
Let's make this easy: do you believe everything pertaining to the receiving of salvation was a gift from/by Christ, or do you think you've contributed or made it possible in any way?

 

[rogerg]

Ro 10:10 SAYS that man believes from the heart. That is where we believe from.

Where does your belief come from?

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The very FACT that they are spiritually alive MEANS that they have been reborn. Do you disagree with that?

Which means they had been dead spiritually before becoming born-again.

Well, of course. I would hope everyone believes that.

A spiritually dead person is incapable of giving themselves spiritual live to choose wisely and to give themselves spiritual life as a physically dead person is incapable of giving themselves physical life to choose wisely and to give themselves physical life.

Sorry, but this is just mumbo jumbo. It is God who gives spiritual life, obviously. So all of your very long MJ sentence is meaningless.

God gives eternal life (spiritual life, if you will) to those who believe. Do you disagree?

So, something/someone else must have intervened that giving that to them.

What does this mean? I have no idea. Please re-phrase as to make sense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"My belief was not forced upon me." How did you receive it?

That's just the point. Calvinists seem convinced that belief must be forced on them. Or that belief must be "received".

Where do you get your ideas? Certainly not the Bible, or you would have already fed them to us.

Was it obtained by your own intellectual efforts or a gift from God?

Neither. Belief comes from the heart, as Rom 10:10 says and destroys calvinism in the process.

Let's make this easy: do you believe everything pertaining to the receiving of salvation was a gift from/by Christ, or do you think you've contributed or made it possible in any way?

HA. Believing the gospel is nothing more than accepting the gift. That's how easy it really is.

But calvinists have to muddy the waters and try to make it very difficult.

What you guys seem totally unwilling to accept is that belief comes from within; the heart. Rom 10;10.

Why don't you guys just accept that verse?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Ro 10:10 SAYS that man believes from the heart. That is where we believe from.

Where does your belief come from?

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

OK, you don't want to answer my question AND you want to ignore Rom 10:10. Slick.

What you also don't realize is that Gal 5:22 is a verse that applies to those who have already believed!!!!!!!

The fruit of the Spirit is the result of being FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT, a command from Eph 5:18, which is also directly at those who have already believed.

You guys seem to want to apply verses to unbelievers as how to be saved, or something.

 

[rogerg]

What you fail to grasp is that v.14 teaches that unbeliever cannot understand "the deep things of God" (v.10). And Paul was clear in v.6 to whom he was writing; to the spiritually MATURE.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Not a question of maturity. It says they cannot know the things of God because to be able to know them they need to be in possession of the Holy Spirit. In other words, natural man first would need to have what he doesn't have and can't get, for him to know what he doesn't know and doesn't have.