Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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fredoheaven said:
Umm, you tell it this to rogerg be cause, he is the telling you that salvation is process. If salvation is a gift then you needed to receive it my friend.Gift is either accepted or not John 1:12
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Its both.

Its a gift and a process.
 
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Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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FreeGrace2 said:
Obviously you have no idea what free will is.

So, I'll enlighten you on what it is.

It is the freedom to choose between options. In EVERY case, whether it is about choosing which politial candidate to vote for, or whether to believe or not believe the gospel message.

God created mankind with a conscience by which to recognize right from wrong. Calvinists seem not to understand that.
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No one has free will. Everyone's will is being influenced in one way or another.

Some are being influenced for good works. And some are not.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
 
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rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
So, I'll enlighten you on what it is.

It is the freedom to choose between options. In EVERY case, whether it is about choosing which politial candidate to vote for, or whether to believe or not believe the gospel message.

God created mankind with a conscience by which to recognize right from wrong. Calvinists seem not to understand that.
Click to expand...
Really? How do the spiritually dead have the ability to choose spiritually? When God used the words "die" and "dead", it wasn't as a figure of speech, He meant DEAD.

[Gen 2:17 KJV]
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

[Eph 2:1, 5 KJV]

1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; ...

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

[Col 2:13 KJV]

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

[Jhn 3:3, 7 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ...
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[1Pe 1:23 KJV]
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
 
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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
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Mar 23, 2016
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Grandpa said:
Everyone's will is being influenced in one way or another.

Some are being influenced for good works. And some are not.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
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Genesis 4:

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


God gave Cain instruction.

Cain ignored the instruction. That was Cain's choice.


God's desire is that all evildoers would turn from their evil ways ...

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...


.
 
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rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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fredoheaven said:
Umm, you tell it this to rogerg be cause, he is the telling you that salvation is process. If salvation is a gift then you needed to receive it my friend.Gift is either accepted or not John 1:12
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If you read my reply closely you will see it was referencing the "that not of yourselves" and "gift of God" to show the gift is the gift of God. Grandpa is correct that it is both. I was only addressing the process part - that salvation and faith comes from with/from/by, God.
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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FYI, on the phrase "faith of Christ" as used in the KJB that its significant meaning during and prior to the 17th century means martyr. An Alveary or Triple Dictionary in English, Latin and French by John Baret (1574) had one entry giving us the common meaning even until kJB of 1611 of martyr, suffering death, matrydome or such death. This is indeed what the context is telling us about as used in Galatians and also in the book of Romans. It speaks of the works of Christ at Calvary.
 
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brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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justpassinthrough said:
You reject what the scriptures say in favor of your own man made teaching.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


No it’s actually biblically salvation as taught by Jesus Christ. Any other teaching is not from God.


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9





JPT
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You seem to still be preaching works salvation, by the works and will of men !
 
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rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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justpassinthrough said:
The Gospel is THE POWER OF GOD unto salvation.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16
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The Gospel, its salvation, and its power are that Christ is the Saviour of those whom He has elected to salvation: that IS the essence of the Gopel.
 
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John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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rogerg said:
If you read my reply closely you will see it was referencing the "that not of yourselves" and "gift of God" to show the gift is the gift of God. Grandpa is correct that it is both. I was only addressing the process part - that salvation and faith comes from with/from/by, God.
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A gift is offered not forced upon someone. A gift can be rejected or received.
 
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John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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rogerg said:
The Gospel, its salvation, and its power are that Christ is the Saviour of those whom He has elected to salvation: that IS the essence of the Gopel.
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If all that are saved were elected by God, why are there such divisions amongst the ”elect”?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Obviously you have no idea what free will is.

So, I'll enlighten you on what it is.

It is the freedom to choose between options. In EVERY case, whether it is about choosing which politial candidate to vote for, or whether to believe or not believe the gospel message.

God created mankind with a conscience by which to recognize right from wrong. Calvinists seem not to understand that.
Grandpa said:
No one has free will.
Click to expand...
Like I said, calvinists do not understand what free will is.

[QUOET] Everyone's will is being influenced in one way or another.[/QUOTE]
That has nothing to do with freedom to choose. Zero. See? You do NOT understand it.

Some are being influenced for good works. And some are not.
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Don't you believe that God created mankind with a conscience? And a conscience chooses which direction to go.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
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Read Isa 55:7 and you will find out clearly on whom He will have mercy.

Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

I guess calvinists either are ignorant of this verse, or they just outright reject it.

Were you ignorant of this verse, or have you just ourtight rejected it?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
So, I'll enlighten you on what it is.

It is the freedom to choose between options. In EVERY case, whether it is about choosing which politial candidate to vote for, or whether to believe or not believe the gospel message.

God created mankind with a conscience by which to recognize right from wrong. Calvinists seem not to understand that.
rogerg said:
Really? How do the spiritually dead have the ability to choose spiritually?
Click to expand...
Thank you for demonstrating how calvinists do not understand free will. Or what it is to be spiritually dead.

The spiritually dead are physically alive, and can make choices, obviously. btw, choosing to believe what God says isn't choosing spiritually at all. It's choosing to believe what God says about one's ultimate future. So it's really about real estate; where one will spend eternity.

When God used the words "die" and "dead", it wasn't as a figure of speech, He meant DEAD.
Click to expand...
The word goes either way. Those with spiritual discernment know the difference.

[Gen 2:17 KJV]
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Click to expand...
Did either Adam or Eve drop dead 'in the day that they ate'? No. They were still physically alive and continued to make choices.

[Eph 2:1, 5 KJV]

1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; ...

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
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Great verses. The words "quickened us" is defined by "by grace you are saved". iow, to be regenerated is to be saved. They go together.

And v.8 proves that both salvation and regeneration are "through faith", meaning that faith precedes both.

[Col 2:13 KJV]

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
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See Eph 2:5 and 8

[Jhn 3:3, 7 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ...
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Click to expand...
See v.5 where John wrote "cannot ENTER the kingdom". So he was equating "seeing" with with "entering".

[1Pe 1:23 KJV]
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Click to expand...
I wonder why you included this verse. It doesn't in any way support calvinism. It is explaining that regeneration means believers have been born spiritually of incorruptible seed.
 
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rogerg

Well-known member
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Jul 13, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Did either Adam or Eve drop dead 'in the day that they ate'? No. They were still physically alive and continued to make choices.
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Yeah, and that was my point -- that they died spiritually not physically. God told them they would die in the day they ate but they
didn't die physically, they died spiritually. That same spiritual death (or lack of spiritual life), has been passed to
all of their human descendants. Those spiritually dead are unable to perceive spiritual truth in order to choose. Their choices
are based upon the knowledge of physical life. From physical life is physical death, not spiritual life. In order to choose spiritually, they must first be placed in possession of spiritual life, in which case their choice is for that which they already have.

FreeGrace2 said:
I wonder why you included this verse. It doesn't in any way support calvinism. It is explaining that regeneration means believers have been born spiritually of incorruptible seed.
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To be born-again means that in the spiritual realm, they do not have life, otherwise, they would not/could not be reborn.

I'm not going to bother to take the time to reply to all of your post because the points you raised are ridiculous. Don't interpret that
to mean that I am in agreement with them or that I am unable to refute them.
 
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