The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.
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THE ABOVE IS YOUR ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION.
DO YOU SEE THE DISCONNECT?
Is this an accurate description of how JESUS sees the Bride?
thou hast left thy first love do the first works or else I will come unto thee quickly and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate Repent or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication and she repented not Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds And I will kill her children with death and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked
DO YOU SEE THE DISCONNECT?
Is this an accurate description of how JESUS sees the Bride?
thou hast left thy first love do the first works or else I will come unto thee quickly and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate Repent or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication and she repented not Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds And I will kill her children with death and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked
The deception is trying to force the parable of the virgins into some kind of treatise on a "pretrib rapture" theory.
Since the Bible makes NO MENTION of Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven at ANY TIME, much LESS before the Tribulation.
Pure deception. Or just plain ignorance. No offense. Just the facts.
Since the Bible makes NO MENTION of Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven at ANY TIME, much LESS before the Tribulation.
Pure deception. Or just plain ignorance. No offense. Just the facts.
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I've already proved that the "gathering" or "harvest" in Rev 14 is about killing, killing, and more killing.
Enough killing to provide the flow of blood up to a horse's bridle for about 180 miles, no less.
Why would anyone conclude the harvest in Rev 14 deals with a "rapture"? It deals strictly with KILLING. Lots of KILLING.
Enough killing to provide the flow of blood up to a horse's bridle for about 180 miles, no less.
Why would anyone conclude the harvest in Rev 14 deals with a "rapture"? It deals strictly with KILLING. Lots of KILLING.
kleronomos said:
How about a verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?
Wow. Notice the OBVIOUS DEFLECTION to your question. He knows there aren't any verses that support a supposed "pretrib rapture".
Just more deflection.
Just all talk. But no answers.
Truth always has an answer. To EVERY question.
When I say "truth", I mean what the Bible says. Where the Bible is silent, we have no answer, of course.
How about a verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?
Wow. Notice the OBVIOUS DEFLECTION to your question. He knows there aren't any verses that support a supposed "pretrib rapture".
Just more deflection.
Just all talk. But no answers.
Truth always has an answer. To EVERY question.
When I say "truth", I mean what the Bible says. Where the Bible is silent, we have no answer, of course.
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kleronomos said:
Is this an accurate description of how JESUS sees the Bride?
thou hast left thy first love do the first works or else I will come unto thee quickly and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate Repent or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication and she repented not Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds And I will kill her children with death and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked
Absolutely answers with
nope.
The parable of the virgins.
Try it
Don't magnify it in omission.
That is deception.
and with when restated asking 'do you see the disconnect'? RECEIVE
Lol
You asked a yes or no question.
I said " nope"
Then you start chastising.
I'll do no more. Have a good life.
Is this an accurate description of how JESUS sees the Bride?
thou hast left thy first love do the first works or else I will come unto thee quickly and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate Repent or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication and she repented not Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds And I will kill her children with death and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked
Absolutely answers with
nope.
The parable of the virgins.
Try it
Don't magnify it in omission.
That is deception.
and with when restated asking 'do you see the disconnect'? RECEIVE
Lol
You asked a yes or no question.
I said " nope"
Then you start chastising.
I'll do no more. Have a good life.
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Matt 26:6 - While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper,
Mark 14:3 - While he was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head.
I have no idea what you are trying to get at. Both verses call him "Simon the leper". So what's the problem?
How can I show a verse that says Simon isn't a leper since you've provided 2 verses that describe him as a leper?
Why would anyone ask a question that creates a conflict within Scripture? That would be nuts.
Is there a verse that describes Jesus as healing Simon? I haven't studied it and I see no reason to try to play your games.
And what you've asked as NO relevance to anything I've posted.
But, while you're at it, SINCE you believe that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven, how do you know that, when the Bible says NOTHING about that?
All I'm asking for is evidence for your belief. You seem sincerely convinced of your opinion. So where is the evidence for it?
Or, have you simply accepted what others have taught you?
That is what happened to me. I was raised in the Christian home and always thought there would be a time when Jesus would come down and take us to heaven. As a youth, I had no idea about a tribulation, etc, but I sure believed that Jesus was going to take believers to heaven one day, which was called "the rapture".
If you have evidence from Scripture that supports a pretrib rapture, please share it.
If you don't have clear evidence, then just admit it and say you were taught it and you trust the teacher(s) who taught you.
Simple as that.
Mark 14:3 - While he was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head.
I have no idea what you are trying to get at. Both verses call him "Simon the leper". So what's the problem?
How can I show a verse that says Simon isn't a leper since you've provided 2 verses that describe him as a leper?
Why would anyone ask a question that creates a conflict within Scripture? That would be nuts.
Is there a verse that describes Jesus as healing Simon? I haven't studied it and I see no reason to try to play your games.
And what you've asked as NO relevance to anything I've posted.
But, while you're at it, SINCE you believe that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven, how do you know that, when the Bible says NOTHING about that?
All I'm asking for is evidence for your belief. You seem sincerely convinced of your opinion. So where is the evidence for it?
Or, have you simply accepted what others have taught you?
That is what happened to me. I was raised in the Christian home and always thought there would be a time when Jesus would come down and take us to heaven. As a youth, I had no idea about a tribulation, etc, but I sure believed that Jesus was going to take believers to heaven one day, which was called "the rapture".
If you have evidence from Scripture that supports a pretrib rapture, please share it.
If you don't have clear evidence, then just admit it and say you were taught it and you trust the teacher(s) who taught you.
Simple as that.
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The Process of the Lord putting down all Rebellious Rulership - rule, authority and power.
`Then come the END.....` (Gk. `telos` meaning to set out for a definite point or goal).
`For He must reign TILL.. He has put all enemies under His feet.` (all rule and authority and power) (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)
Thus we see that it is over a period of time as the Lord puts down all rebellious rulership. Let`s have a look at this in detail.
The Lord takes up His executive authority and begins judgment of all rule, authority and power opposed to Him.
1.Judgment of the northern armies. (Ez. 38: 4, 15 & 16, 22)
2.Further Judgment of Satan and fallen angels. (Rev. 12: 9)
3.Judgment of religious Babylon. (Rev. 17: 16 & 17)
4.Judgment of economic Babylon. (Rev. 18: 8)
5. Judgment of the World`s cities. (Rev. 16: 17 & 18)
6.Judgment of the world`s armies & further judgment of Satan. (Rev. 19: 15 & 20, 20: 1 - 3)
7.Judgment of the nations. (Matt. 25: 31 - 46)
8.Judgment of the nations not going up to Jerusalem. (Zech. 14: 18)
9.Judgment of those nations surrounding Jerusalem & the devil. (Rev. 20: 9)
10.The Great White Throne Judgment of those from the grave. (Rev.20: 11 - 15)
`Then come the END.....` (Gk. `telos` meaning to set out for a definite point or goal).
`For He must reign TILL.. He has put all enemies under His feet.` (all rule and authority and power) (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)
Thus we see that it is over a period of time as the Lord puts down all rebellious rulership. Let`s have a look at this in detail.
The Lord takes up His executive authority and begins judgment of all rule, authority and power opposed to Him.
1.Judgment of the northern armies. (Ez. 38: 4, 15 & 16, 22)
2.Further Judgment of Satan and fallen angels. (Rev. 12: 9)
3.Judgment of religious Babylon. (Rev. 17: 16 & 17)
4.Judgment of economic Babylon. (Rev. 18: 8)
5. Judgment of the World`s cities. (Rev. 16: 17 & 18)
6.Judgment of the world`s armies & further judgment of Satan. (Rev. 19: 15 & 20, 20: 1 - 3)
7.Judgment of the nations. (Matt. 25: 31 - 46)
8.Judgment of the nations not going up to Jerusalem. (Zech. 14: 18)
9.Judgment of those nations surrounding Jerusalem & the devil. (Rev. 20: 9)
10.The Great White Throne Judgment of those from the grave. (Rev.20: 11 - 15)
Those who are the Lord`s throughout the Judgments.
(Prior to the judgments the Body of Christ is caught away and taken to the Lord`s own throne, (Acts 3: 20 & 21, 1 Thess. 4: 17, Rev. 3: 21) Then the judgments begin.)
1.The Great multitude that no one can count. (Rev. 7: 9 - 16)
2.Martyrs from the nations. (Rev. 6: 9 - 11, 12: 11, 15: 1 - 4)
4.144,000 priests of God from the 12 tribes of Israel. (Rev. 7: 1 - 8, 14: 1 - 5)
5.The Sheep nations. (Matt. 25: 31 - 40)
6.Those of Israel who survived the trib, (Zech. 12: 10)
7.Those of the Nations who learn and obey God`s ways. (Zech. 14: 16, Micah 4: 1 - 3)
8.Those who were judged right according to their works. (Rev. 20: 12)
(Prior to the judgments the Body of Christ is caught away and taken to the Lord`s own throne, (Acts 3: 20 & 21, 1 Thess. 4: 17, Rev. 3: 21) Then the judgments begin.)
1.The Great multitude that no one can count. (Rev. 7: 9 - 16)
2.Martyrs from the nations. (Rev. 6: 9 - 11, 12: 11, 15: 1 - 4)
4.144,000 priests of God from the 12 tribes of Israel. (Rev. 7: 1 - 8, 14: 1 - 5)
5.The Sheep nations. (Matt. 25: 31 - 40)
6.Those of Israel who survived the trib, (Zech. 12: 10)
7.Those of the Nations who learn and obey God`s ways. (Zech. 14: 16, Micah 4: 1 - 3)
8.Those who were judged right according to their works. (Rev. 20: 12)
We need to look at all the scriptures pertaining to a topic.
(God the Father ) may send Jesus Christ....whom heaven must receive UNTIL the times of restoration of ALL things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)
The OT prophets spoke of the kingpriest appointed in the third heaven who rebelled and thus was cast from that position. (Ez. 28: 16) He usurped authority in the Universal realm. Job declares that even the heavens are not pure. (Job 15: 15) And of course we know that the earth needs restoring.
So it is that when the Lord Jesus is sent from heaven to gather His Body they are caught away to the third heaven where they will rule on the Lord`s own throne. (1 Thess. 4: 11 - 17, Rev. 3: 21)
The judgments will then begin for righteous rulership from the third heaven has been restored. From there, over time all other positions of rulership will come under the authority and rule of the Lord, as He puts them down. (see other comments further back that I wrote on this.)
(God the Father ) may send Jesus Christ....whom heaven must receive UNTIL the times of restoration of ALL things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)
The OT prophets spoke of the kingpriest appointed in the third heaven who rebelled and thus was cast from that position. (Ez. 28: 16) He usurped authority in the Universal realm. Job declares that even the heavens are not pure. (Job 15: 15) And of course we know that the earth needs restoring.
So it is that when the Lord Jesus is sent from heaven to gather His Body they are caught away to the third heaven where they will rule on the Lord`s own throne. (1 Thess. 4: 11 - 17, Rev. 3: 21)
The judgments will then begin for righteous rulership from the third heaven has been restored. From there, over time all other positions of rulership will come under the authority and rule of the Lord, as He puts them down. (see other comments further back that I wrote on this.)
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Those who belong to the Lord isn't about "judgments" at all.
It's about those who have believed on the Messiah/Christ and are saved. That's who belongs to Him.
Acts 3:20,21
20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.
21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Neither verse says anything about believers in glorified bodies being taken to heaven. v.20 is about the fact that the Second Advent is an appointment. v.21 in the Greek means "heaven must retain or contain Him". This verse teaches that Jesus will STAY or REMAIN in heaven until He returns at the Second Advent.
1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
There is nothing here about any believer being taken to heaven. In fact, this verse perfectly fits the resurrection/rapture at the Second Advent. All it says is that when He comes, we will be with Him forever.
Re 3:21 - To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
The "throne" here is a prophecy about the Millennial Kingdom, which is on earth. And doesn't say anything about a trip to heaven in glorified bodies.
What does this list refer to. According to 1 Cor 15:23, "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". That clearly means all of them, since the verse speaks in the singular, since there are only 2 advents, and we are awaiting the Second One.
And multiple verses also speak of resurrection in the singular. So that is evidence for just ONE resurrection of the saved.
Being a pretrib rapture type, what verses show clearly and therefore convince you of it?
It's about those who have believed on the Messiah/Christ and are saved. That's who belongs to Him.
Acts 3:20,21
20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.
21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Neither verse says anything about believers in glorified bodies being taken to heaven. v.20 is about the fact that the Second Advent is an appointment. v.21 in the Greek means "heaven must retain or contain Him". This verse teaches that Jesus will STAY or REMAIN in heaven until He returns at the Second Advent.
1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
There is nothing here about any believer being taken to heaven. In fact, this verse perfectly fits the resurrection/rapture at the Second Advent. All it says is that when He comes, we will be with Him forever.
Re 3:21 - To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
The "throne" here is a prophecy about the Millennial Kingdom, which is on earth. And doesn't say anything about a trip to heaven in glorified bodies.
What does this list refer to. According to 1 Cor 15:23, "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". That clearly means all of them, since the verse speaks in the singular, since there are only 2 advents, and we are awaiting the Second One.
And multiple verses also speak of resurrection in the singular. So that is evidence for just ONE resurrection of the saved.
Being a pretrib rapture type, what verses show clearly and therefore convince you of it?
Why don't you just knock off your childish condescension if you really want to discuss anything.
Sure. So what? I think any reasonable and rational person would easily agree. It was your ridiculous question that I wasn't going to try to answer.
What is clear to me is that since there was a meal at Simon's home, reasonable and rational people would understand that he had been healed by Jesus before that dinner. But so what? That is obvious.
Where is the "obvious evidence" that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven?
I'm guessing you must think that since Simon was obviously heals of leprosy before the dinner is somehow equal to the supposed "obvious fact" that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven.
Sorry, that doesn't fly.
You're trying to connect that dots that aren't there. kinda like seeing spots before your eyes. Your eyes have a problem if you do see spots floating around.
The sad fact is that you are so self convinced by a theory that you believe it IN SPITE of the lack of evidence. So you grab at straws.
Sure. So what? I think any reasonable and rational person would easily agree. It was your ridiculous question that I wasn't going to try to answer.
What is clear to me is that since there was a meal at Simon's home, reasonable and rational people would understand that he had been healed by Jesus before that dinner. But so what? That is obvious.
Where is the "obvious evidence" that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven?
I'm guessing you must think that since Simon was obviously heals of leprosy before the dinner is somehow equal to the supposed "obvious fact" that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven.
Sorry, that doesn't fly.
You're trying to connect that dots that aren't there. kinda like seeing spots before your eyes. Your eyes have a problem if you do see spots floating around.
The sad fact is that you are so self convinced by a theory that you believe it IN SPITE of the lack of evidence. So you grab at straws.
There is an artful quality of thinking aligned to the mideastern mindset required to understand Scripture. Deduction is an inevitable part of it. So is detecting forms and detecting patterns. And much much more.....
Unfortunately, you don't have it. That's why you don't get it.
You - just - don't - get - it.....
Unfortunately, you don't have it. That's why you don't get it.
You - just - don't - get - it.....
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