Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!
- Thread starter Phoneman-777
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I've never met someone so absolutely backwards in his theology, PM.
You claim God demonstrates "mercy" by keeping the wicked alive for all eternity in the most unspeakably excruciating pain possible.....
....and at the same time demonstrates His "justice" by imparting "agape" love to wicked people who would snatch Him off His throne and kill Him if they could.
One wonders if the false ideas you spread in here are intentional or not.
You claim God demonstrates "mercy" by keeping the wicked alive for all eternity in the most unspeakably excruciating pain possible.....
....and at the same time demonstrates His "justice" by imparting "agape" love to wicked people who would snatch Him off His throne and kill Him if they could.
One wonders if the false ideas you spread in here are intentional or not.
I leave that up to you trinitarian buddies to assess. If it is not in the Scriptures, I won't be believing it soon. I know a good yarn when I hear it and yours is quite bad.
Your reading of Hebrews 6:1-3 sees hell while I read judgement κρίματος. So where is the fire, torture chambers? Could it be just in your mind? Why would anyone seeing judgement automatically say lets torture the guy? It is an indication where your mindset is.
Doctrine is supposed to be taught and obeyed. Your doctrines are contradict the Scriptures. What should one chose?
1 Corinthians 8:6, huh? Where is the one Lord? Read before the verse before you suppose your doctrine.
1 Corinthians 81Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3But if any man love God, the same is known of him.4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
Now you are saying Jesus is God when a few verses up you are told explicitly not to worship idols you ask to worship the triangle thing you cannot even explain.
1 Corinthians 12:5, 2 Corinthians 8:19? Do you not understand context?
They are talking about different gifts but we serve One God and One Messiah. The Messiah is the same Lord as with all in the body of Christ. It is not that God is the Messiah. That is blasphemous.
Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18. So now the piety card
Yes Jesus is the Son of God. He is Master. He is not God. As it is written.
Romans 8:9 - I do not imbibe in your spirit of the frogs. You contradict God and Jesus with every utterance. Once again, where you are heading is not where I have to be. Your words are meaningless.
Re: Last words
Okidoke
Your reading of Hebrews 6:1-3 sees hell while I read judgement κρίματος. So where is the fire, torture chambers? Could it be just in your mind? Why would anyone seeing judgement automatically say lets torture the guy? It is an indication where your mindset is.
Doctrine is supposed to be taught and obeyed. Your doctrines are contradict the Scriptures. What should one chose?
1 Corinthians 8:6, huh? Where is the one Lord? Read before the verse before you suppose your doctrine.
1 Corinthians 81Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3But if any man love God, the same is known of him.4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
Now you are saying Jesus is God when a few verses up you are told explicitly not to worship idols you ask to worship the triangle thing you cannot even explain.
1 Corinthians 12:5, 2 Corinthians 8:19? Do you not understand context?
They are talking about different gifts but we serve One God and One Messiah. The Messiah is the same Lord as with all in the body of Christ. It is not that God is the Messiah. That is blasphemous.
Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18. So now the piety card
Yes Jesus is the Son of God. He is Master. He is not God. As it is written.
Romans 8:9 - I do not imbibe in your spirit of the frogs. You contradict God and Jesus with every utterance. Once again, where you are heading is not where I have to be. Your words are meaningless.
Re: Last words
Okidoke
Romans 6:23 KJV plainly says the punishment for sin is death, not eternal torment. Therefore "everlasting punishment" means "everlasting death", "eternal death", "permanent death", a death from which there will be no resurrection.
What a shame in this day and age we have to argue that death is what it is: a cessation of life. Death is the opposite of life, the antithesis of life, the exclusion of life. Where there is death, there is no life. Death is the absence of life, not the continuation thereof.
What a shame in this day and age we have to argue that death is what it is: a cessation of life. Death is the opposite of life, the antithesis of life, the exclusion of life. Where there is death, there is no life. Death is the absence of life, not the continuation thereof.
https://archive.org/
The Strong's I know of are scans. You might get lucky with an OCRed job. A searchable database are hard to comeby. Search with keywords "interlinear" and languages.
The Strong's I know of are scans. You might get lucky with an OCRed job. A searchable database are hard to comeby. Search with keywords "interlinear" and languages.
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Judgement not torture. Jesus was blunt - sin gets you death. God was blunt "you will surely die" if you eat the fruit. God is the Judge not a torturer. ..."the word of our God will stand forever." His Judgement is Eternal. Death. God's Eternal Grace is Life, while His Judgement is Eternal Absence.
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he specifically states that David speaks as though the soul is immortal.
he specifically says the soul and the spirit are not the same.
he clearly believes in mankind as a tri-partite being, literal body literal soul and literal spirit, with only the body being mortal.
you need to slow down and understand what you are reading, instead of simply scanning the text for 'proof-quotes'
read it again:
he specifically says the soul and the spirit are not the same.
he clearly believes in mankind as a tri-partite being, literal body literal soul and literal spirit, with only the body being mortal.
you need to slow down and understand what you are reading, instead of simply scanning the text for 'proof-quotes'
read it again:
In the same manner, therefore, as Christ did rise in the substance of flesh, and pointed out to His disciples the mark of the nails and the opening in His side (now these are the tokens of that flesh which rose from the dead), so "shall He also," it is said, "raise us up by His own power." And again to the Romans he says, "But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies."
What, then, are mortal bodies? Can they be souls? Nay, for souls are incorporeal when put in comparison with mortal bodies; for God "breathed into the face of man the breath of life, and man became a living soul." Now the breath of life is an incorporeal thing. And certainly they cannot maintain that the very breath of life is mortal. Therefore David says, "My soul also shall live to Him," just as if its substance were immortal. Neither, on the other hand, can they say that the spirit is the mortal body.
What therefore is there left to which we may apply the term "mortal body," unless it be the thing that was moulded, that is, the flesh, of which it is also said that God will vivify it? For this it is which dies and is decomposed, but not the soul or the spirit. For to die is to lose vital power, and to become henceforth breathless, inanimate, and devoid of motion, and to melt away into those [component parts] from which also it derived the commencement of [its] substance.
But this event happens neither to the soul, for it is the breath of life; nor to the spirit, for the spirit is simple and not composite, so that it cannot be decomposed, and is itself the life of those who receive it. We must therefore conclude that it is in reference to the flesh that death is mentioned; which [flesh], after the soul's departure, becomes breathless and inanimate, and is decomposed gradually into the earth from which it was taken.
This, then, is what is mortal. And it is this of which he also says," He shall also quicken your mortal bodies." And therefore in reference to it he says, in the first [Epistle] to the Corinthians: "So also is the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it rises in incorruption." For he declares, "That which thou sowest cannot be quickened, unless first it die."
- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, book V ch. VII
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by 'convoluted' you mean complex and intelligent?
as contrasted with modern simple and dull thinking?
in fact his exact argument is that man is made of three parts, and the only part which is not immortal is the body of dust.
in the greater context he is arguing against heretics who deny the resurrection; he is pointing out that the only thing which can be resurrected is the body because the rest of man - his soul and spirit - cannot be destroyed, being incorporeal.
only if the breath of God can be annihilated can the soul be annihilated.
your argument becomes this: can you suffocate God?
as contrasted with modern simple and dull thinking?
in fact his exact argument is that man is made of three parts, and the only part which is not immortal is the body of dust.
in the greater context he is arguing against heretics who deny the resurrection; he is pointing out that the only thing which can be resurrected is the body because the rest of man - his soul and spirit - cannot be destroyed, being incorporeal.
only if the breath of God can be annihilated can the soul be annihilated.
your argument becomes this: can you suffocate God?
Thanks. Verse 12 says "the love (Gr. "AGAPE") of many shall wax cold" and these "many" are contrasted with "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved" which obviously means the fate of those of verse 12 is that they are not saved.
I confidently say that there is not one instance in all of Scripture where God's divine, completely selfless, sacrificial, unconditional "agape" love is imparted to the wicked - Posthuman in the past tried to argue, O yes, the wicked can partake of agape love all day long, so these "many" are not the saints" and he dishonestly pointed to a couple verses where "agapeo" - not "agape" - is attributed to the wicked, but comparing "agape" to "agapeo" in the Greek is like comparing a Royal Feast to a 3 day old happy meal. There is no comparison. Therefore, these "many" of verse 12 must be saints because Jesus says it is their "agape" that grows cold, leaving these saints in a worse spiritual condition than the merely lukewarm Laodiceans who will be spat out of Jesus' mouth.
OSAS dies a slow, excruciating, painful death here, because those that subscribe to it must now come to terms with the reality that they must "endure to the end" and when you've lived your entire Christian life refusing to endure anything Christ has called you to endure, claiming "freedom in Christ"...well, that's perhaps the most unwelcome revelation a person can experience.
I confidently say that there is not one instance in all of Scripture where God's divine, completely selfless, sacrificial, unconditional "agape" love is imparted to the wicked - Posthuman in the past tried to argue, O yes, the wicked can partake of agape love all day long, so these "many" are not the saints" and he dishonestly pointed to a couple verses where "agapeo" - not "agape" - is attributed to the wicked, but comparing "agape" to "agapeo" in the Greek is like comparing a Royal Feast to a 3 day old happy meal. There is no comparison. Therefore, these "many" of verse 12 must be saints because Jesus says it is their "agape" that grows cold, leaving these saints in a worse spiritual condition than the merely lukewarm Laodiceans who will be spat out of Jesus' mouth.
OSAS dies a slow, excruciating, painful death here, because those that subscribe to it must now come to terms with the reality that they must "endure to the end" and when you've lived your entire Christian life refusing to endure anything Christ has called you to endure, claiming "freedom in Christ"...well, that's perhaps the most unwelcome revelation a person can experience.
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It is definitely in the holy scriptures.
See Revelation 20:10, 15, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:41,46.
No, my doctrines do not contradict the scriptures.
I have explained it in other threads. I know that if you have a heart that wants to know the truth, you will look at what I have written in those threads and will also see the truth.
The Pharisees thought so, too, and picked up stones to stone Jesus when He made His claim in John 8:58 (see John 8:59, John 10:31-33)
The verses in question say that we have one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).
You cannot confess that Jesus is the Lord in light of that information, you do not have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv))...
And therefore you do not belong to Christ (Romans 8:9)
What has God and Jesus said that I have contradicted with every utterance? I am merely attempting to teach you what the Bible teaches; and I don't think that God contradicts His own word.
No, actually, I hope that we can continue this conversation.
See Revelation 20:10, 15, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:41,46.
No, my doctrines do not contradict the scriptures.
I have explained it in other threads. I know that if you have a heart that wants to know the truth, you will look at what I have written in those threads and will also see the truth.
The Pharisees thought so, too, and picked up stones to stone Jesus when He made His claim in John 8:58 (see John 8:59, John 10:31-33)
The verses in question say that we have one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).
You cannot confess that Jesus is the Lord in light of that information, you do not have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv))...
And therefore you do not belong to Christ (Romans 8:9)
What has God and Jesus said that I have contradicted with every utterance? I am merely attempting to teach you what the Bible teaches; and I don't think that God contradicts His own word.
No, actually, I hope that we can continue this conversation.
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No, this is the exact quote: "Therefore David says, "My soul also shall live to Him," just as if its substance were immortal."
The substance of the soul is the breath of life. He's saying the breath of life is immortal, not the soul.
Genesis 2:7
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
That's false. The only thing Irenaeus said is immortal is the breath of life: "Now the breath of life is an incorporeal thing. And certainly they cannot maintain that the very breath of life is mortal."
I'm going to have to insist you take your own advice here and I'll soon explain why.
As you said, let's slow down and read it so I'll do that for you.
As you can see in the text you've bolded, Irenaeus is saying that the soul does not die in the same way that a flesh and blood body does. That's really all it says.
"But this event happens neither to the soul, for it is the breath of life; nor to the spirit, for the spirit is simple and not composite, so that it cannot be decomposed, and is itself the life of those who receive it. We must therefore conclude that it is in reference to the flesh that death is mentioned; which [flesh], after the soul's departure, becomes breathless and inanimate, and is decomposed gradually into the earth from which it was taken."
The soul is immaterial and does not rot in the ground like a body does, that's basically what it says. Irenaeus does not reverse his well-established position that was previously stated.
Irenaeus has already established that those who reject God's gift of eternal life will not live forever and the soul only exists and continues for as long as God will allow it to.
"And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 4, paragraph 3
"For as the heaven which is above us, the firmament, the sun, the moon, the rest of the stars, and all their grandeur, although they had no previous existence, were called into being, and continue throughout a long course of time according to the will of God, so also any one who thinks thus respecting souls and spirits, and, in fact, respecting all created things, will not by any means go far astray, inasmuch as all things that have been made had a beginning when they were formed, but endure as long as God wills that they should have an existence and continuance."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 34
The substance of the soul is the breath of life. He's saying the breath of life is immortal, not the soul.
Genesis 2:7
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
That's false. The only thing Irenaeus said is immortal is the breath of life: "Now the breath of life is an incorporeal thing. And certainly they cannot maintain that the very breath of life is mortal."
I'm going to have to insist you take your own advice here and I'll soon explain why.
As you said, let's slow down and read it so I'll do that for you.
As you can see in the text you've bolded, Irenaeus is saying that the soul does not die in the same way that a flesh and blood body does. That's really all it says.
"But this event happens neither to the soul, for it is the breath of life; nor to the spirit, for the spirit is simple and not composite, so that it cannot be decomposed, and is itself the life of those who receive it. We must therefore conclude that it is in reference to the flesh that death is mentioned; which [flesh], after the soul's departure, becomes breathless and inanimate, and is decomposed gradually into the earth from which it was taken."
The soul is immaterial and does not rot in the ground like a body does, that's basically what it says. Irenaeus does not reverse his well-established position that was previously stated.
Irenaeus has already established that those who reject God's gift of eternal life will not live forever and the soul only exists and continues for as long as God will allow it to.
"And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 4, paragraph 3
"For as the heaven which is above us, the firmament, the sun, the moon, the rest of the stars, and all their grandeur, although they had no previous existence, were called into being, and continue throughout a long course of time according to the will of God, so also any one who thinks thus respecting souls and spirits, and, in fact, respecting all created things, will not by any means go far astray, inasmuch as all things that have been made had a beginning when they were formed, but endure as long as God wills that they should have an existence and continuance."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 34
Oh yeah, Satan doesn't want to be God, but all his followers down here on Earth do, right? Caesars, Popes, ancient kings, even celebrities think we owe them a debt of gratitude and worship just to look at them...but Satan? Nah, he doesn't want to be God 
So, you're finally willing to admit you were wrong when you said "the wicked can partake of God's agape"? It appears your now defending "cold agape" as "still sufficient saintly agape", which is also bulldookey theology -- if the Laodiceans are spat out of Jesus' mouth for merely being lukewarm saints, how much more will these "many" saints be rejected for their cold agape?
Many Christians have seen a pet who's well beyond their best years, blind, in severe constant pain, barely able to walk, no bowel control whatsoever...and we look at the owner and judge them as selfish and irresponsible for prolonging the suffering of the poor creature, which gets worse with each passing day, rather than just putting the poor creature out of its misery.
But, when it comes to humans, these same "Christian" champions of love and compassion will argue what a just God He is for keeping the wicked alive in torment for all eternity.
"Shall mortal man be more just than God"?
So, you're finally willing to admit you were wrong when you said "the wicked can partake of God's agape"? It appears your now defending "cold agape" as "still sufficient saintly agape", which is also bulldookey theology -- if the Laodiceans are spat out of Jesus' mouth for merely being lukewarm saints, how much more will these "many" saints be rejected for their cold agape?
Many Christians have seen a pet who's well beyond their best years, blind, in severe constant pain, barely able to walk, no bowel control whatsoever...and we look at the owner and judge them as selfish and irresponsible for prolonging the suffering of the poor creature, which gets worse with each passing day, rather than just putting the poor creature out of its misery.
But, when it comes to humans, these same "Christian" champions of love and compassion will argue what a just God He is for keeping the wicked alive in torment for all eternity.
"Shall mortal man be more just than God"?
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hmm..
are you reading Irenaeus or are you reading some article you found that lists "things to say to someone who rejects your annihilationism" ?
because this is Against Heresies, book II ch. IV pp. III --
are you reading Irenaeus or are you reading some article you found that lists "things to say to someone who rejects your annihilationism" ?
because this is Against Heresies, book II ch. IV pp. III --
Their talk also about shadow and vacuity, in which they maintain that the creation with which we are concerned was formed, will be brought to nothing, if the things referred to were created within the territory which is contained by the Father. For if they hold that the light of their Father is such that it fills all things which are inside of Him, and illuminates them all, how can any vacuum or shadow possibly exist within that territory which is contained by the Pleroma, and by the light of the Father? For, in that case, it behoves them to point out some place within the Propator, or within the Pleroma, which is not illuminated, nor kept possession of by any one, and in which either the angels or the Demiurge formed whatever they pleased. Nor will it be a small amount of space in which such and so great a creation can be conceived of as having been formed. There will therefore be an absolute necessity that, within the Pleroma, or within the Father of whom they speak, they should conceive of some place, void, formless, and full of darkness, in which those things were formed which have been formed. By such a supposition, however, the light of their Father would incur a reproach, as if He could not illuminate and fill those things which are within Himself. Thus, then, when they maintain that these things were the fruit of defect and the work of error, they do moreover introduce defect and error within the Pleroma, and into the bosom of the Father.
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You're false ideas have been proven time and time again to fail the test of Biblical scrutiny. There is no such thing as an "immortal soul" because God "only hath immortality" and only those who "seek for immortality" will find it, while those who are cast bodily into the Lake of Fire will as mortals burn up and out of existence.
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ok yeah that is all from ch.34 not ch. 4
here's ch. 34 in its entirety; let's read it together:
((do you notice the title of the chapter?? lol))
here's ch. 34 in its entirety; let's read it together:
((do you notice the title of the chapter?? lol))
- Chapter XXXIV. - Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
2. But if any persons at this point maintain that those souls, which only began a little while ago to exist, cannot endure for any length of time; but that they must, on the one hand, either be unborn, in order that they may be immortal, or if they have had a beginning in the way of generation, that they should die with the body itself-let them learn that God alone, who is Lord of all, is without beginning and without end, being truly and for ever the same, and always remaining the same unchangeable Being. But all things which proceed from Him, whatsoever have been made, and are made, do indeed receive their own beginning of generation, and on this account are inferior to Him who formed them, inasmuch as they are not unbegotten. Nevertheless they endure, and extend their existence into a long series of ages in accordance with the will of God their Creator; so that He grants them that they should be thus formed at the beginning, and that they should so exist afterwards.
3. For as the heaven which is above us, the firmament, the sun, the moon, the rest of the stars, and all their grandeur, although they had no previous existence, were called into being, and continue throughout a long course of time according to the will of God, so also any one who thinks thus respecting souls and spirits, and, in fact, respecting all created things, will not by any means go far astray, inasmuch as all things that have been made had a beginning when they were formed, but endure as long as God wills that they should have an existence and continuance. The prophetic Spirit bears testimony to these opinions, when He declares, "For He spake, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created: He hath established them for ever, yea, forever and ever." And again, He thus speaks respecting the salvation of man: "He asked life of Thee, and Thou gavest him length of days for ever and ever; " indicating that it is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved. For life does not arise from us, nor from our own nature; but it is bestowed according to the grace of God. And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever. And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: "If ye have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great? " indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever.
4. But as the animal body is certainly not itself the soul, yet has fellowship with the soul as long as God pleases; so the soul herself is not life, but partakes in that life bestowed upon her by God. Wherefore also the prophetic word declares of the first-formed man, "He became a living soul," teaching us that by the participation of life the soul became alive; so that the soul, and the life which it possesses, must be understood as being separate existences. When God therefore bestows life and perpetual duration, it comes to pass that even souls which did not previously exist should henceforth endure [for ever], since God has both willed that they should exist, and should continue in existence. For the will of God ought to govern and rule in all things, while all other things give way to Him, are in subjection, and devoted to His service. Thus far, then, let me speak concerning the creation and the continued duration of the soul.
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tele-person is temporarily **ignored** because i want to have an actual conversation right now with someone who is not anathema.
we have 50 pages of text here rejecting his arguments as clearly blasphemous; it is the consensus of all the elders on CC - moreover it's clear to me he only loves to argue, and such people are to be marked & avoided.
as i do not like to ignore anyone on principle, i will un-ignore him next weekend.
we have 50 pages of text here rejecting his arguments as clearly blasphemous; it is the consensus of all the elders on CC - moreover it's clear to me he only loves to argue, and such people are to be marked & avoided.
as i do not like to ignore anyone on principle, i will un-ignore him next weekend.
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