Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!
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The bible has more than just those three being cast into the lake of fire and brimstone to be tormented day and night forever and ever.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Touché! That’s infallible. 
Seems a bit far-reaching that you felt the need to turn the wicked into disembodied airborne particulates, weeping and gnashing their teeth somehow, rather than just letting the Bible stand on its own merit and say they were put to death via destruction.
that’s why I assume you’re joking. That’s clever
Seems a bit far-reaching that you felt the need to turn the wicked into disembodied airborne particulates, weeping and gnashing their teeth somehow, rather than just letting the Bible stand on its own merit and say they were put to death via destruction.
that’s why I assume you’re joking. That’s clever
I don't think it is for no reason that we live in a creation in which energy and information cannot be destroyed, only change form, or that the bodies of living creatures are made of dust and return to dust. Dust isn't nothing; its something.
Come on brother, mocking God? I thought you knew the scripture I was referring to:
1 Corinthians 15:
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
The thought is, if there's no after life, then let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die.
1 Corinthians 15:
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
The thought is, if there's no after life, then let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die.
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Right. Pauls' thinking isn't if there is no after life "which includes eternal torment", but simply the preciousness of life continuing. That's why people cry at funerals.
And standing naked having every shameful thing exposed that a sinner has done isn't a pleasant thought. The Bible tells us the unsaved will see what life in Christ truly is before the're lives are extinguished. No unsaved person is going to be happy at how much sin they enjoyed when they see what they gave up.
And standing naked having every shameful thing exposed that a sinner has done isn't a pleasant thought. The Bible tells us the unsaved will see what life in Christ truly is before the're lives are extinguished. No unsaved person is going to be happy at how much sin they enjoyed when they see what they gave up.
Who are they that their names are not found in the book of life and are cast into the lake of fire with the devil, beast, and the false prophet?
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
See, you have to change the wording of Isaiah 9:6, not once, but twice, in order to deny that it teaches Christ's Deity when it refers to Him as "the everlasting Father".
And also, when it refers to Him as "the Mighty God", a comparison to Psalms 50:1 (kjv) will reveal that it is in fact referring to Him as Jehovah (the LORD).
And also, when it refers to Him as "the Mighty God", a comparison to Psalms 50:1 (kjv) will reveal that it is in fact referring to Him as Jehovah (the LORD).
The verse was written in a more ancient language. Not english. Your sources are translations.
The exegesis of the "Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges" is more objective and dependable than your understanding. Your critique is not credible.
I believe we had a similar argument with your trinity OP. My conclusions were that you lack any standard of truth. Rhetoric very much like slashing at water with you. There is no reason to continue as it will be a fruitless endeavour.
The exegesis of the "Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges" is more objective and dependable than your understanding. Your critique is not credible.
I believe we had a similar argument with your trinity OP. My conclusions were that you lack any standard of truth. Rhetoric very much like slashing at water with you. There is no reason to continue as it will be a fruitless endeavour.
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It would seem that you reject the kjv of holy scripture...
I would say that in doing so, you are heaping to yourself teachers (in the translators of other versions) to tell you what your itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).
I believe that God has preserved His unadulterated message in the kjv...
That He is both sovereign and Omnipotent and loving.
Because He is sovereign and Omnipotent, He is able to preserve His unadulterated message of the gospel that saves in the kjv...
Because He is loving, He was motivated to do so.
My faith in the kjv is the evidence of things not seen and there is a substance to it (Hebrews 11:1).
I do find that many of the other translations do water down the message and do not give the message of the gospel as accurately as the kjv.
And, by all means do not continue with me; it means that I will have the last word on this subject.
I would say that in doing so, you are heaping to yourself teachers (in the translators of other versions) to tell you what your itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).
I believe that God has preserved His unadulterated message in the kjv...
That He is both sovereign and Omnipotent and loving.
Because He is sovereign and Omnipotent, He is able to preserve His unadulterated message of the gospel that saves in the kjv...
Because He is loving, He was motivated to do so.
My faith in the kjv is the evidence of things not seen and there is a substance to it (Hebrews 11:1).
I do find that many of the other translations do water down the message and do not give the message of the gospel as accurately as the kjv.
And, by all means do not continue with me; it means that I will have the last word on this subject.
yes, creation testifies of Him.
and the creation He created which testifies of Him so happens to be one in which information and energy cannot be destroyed, but they only change forms. consciousness is not a physical process, but a non-physical one - and when a body dies, it doesn't simply disappear; it decomposes into the same dust that it was made of. and what happens to the consciousness? the 'personhood'? it wasn't a physical thing. who knows? the scripture says the spirit of a man returns to God, not that the spirit of a man is annihilated. God is the very opposite of annihilation: He is I AM, the eternally existing.
the information about that physical body of dust is never lost in this creation: if you had perfect knowledge of the positions and velocities of every piece of that dust over the whole course of time ((i.e. if you were omniscient)) you could completely reconstruct the body. you could identify & locate every atom that was part of it, and put it back together. you could identify and reclaim every single unit of energy that was in it, and restore it all.
that is the universe that God created in order to testify of Himself. it is a universe in which nothing is lost - nothing ceases to exist - but its continued existence can change forms in such a complex & profound way that only God can know it and resurrect it.
resurrection is not creating a fake copy of the original and pretending it is the original.
resurrection is gathering together what to ignorant, incapable men seemed lost, but to omniscient, omnipotent God was never lost.
and the creation He created which testifies of Him so happens to be one in which information and energy cannot be destroyed, but they only change forms. consciousness is not a physical process, but a non-physical one - and when a body dies, it doesn't simply disappear; it decomposes into the same dust that it was made of. and what happens to the consciousness? the 'personhood'? it wasn't a physical thing. who knows? the scripture says the spirit of a man returns to God, not that the spirit of a man is annihilated. God is the very opposite of annihilation: He is I AM, the eternally existing.
the information about that physical body of dust is never lost in this creation: if you had perfect knowledge of the positions and velocities of every piece of that dust over the whole course of time ((i.e. if you were omniscient)) you could completely reconstruct the body. you could identify & locate every atom that was part of it, and put it back together. you could identify and reclaim every single unit of energy that was in it, and restore it all.
that is the universe that God created in order to testify of Himself. it is a universe in which nothing is lost - nothing ceases to exist - but its continued existence can change forms in such a complex & profound way that only God can know it and resurrect it.
resurrection is not creating a fake copy of the original and pretending it is the original.
resurrection is gathering together what to ignorant, incapable men seemed lost, but to omniscient, omnipotent God was never lost.
Just a bit down from your itchy ears
2 Tim 4:4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Even your trinitarianism does not even conform with the Athanasian creed as you make your own rules as I recall (modalist interpretations I believe), not to mention hell a eternal place of perpetual torture like the pagan folk. Things which are not said in and against the Scriptures. Making good bad and bad good.
All your statements are self-serving and unfit as doctrine. The logic behind your emotional notions are as inchoate as fog, suitable only for virtual swilling swine.
Just a little down from your faith.
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
The word states explicitly without exception God is One, God is Lord. The Word states explicitly without exception that our God is the God of Jesus. So no, your words are meaningless as the obey not the Scriptures. When the truth is not evident, dig a little deeper with the Good Book instead of the low hanging fruits of this english world.
Of course, you can have the last word. I believe it was acceded to you at the last OP. But if you choose not to exercise this to avoid foolish talk then let us continue to avoid conceit.
2 Tim 4:4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Even your trinitarianism does not even conform with the Athanasian creed as you make your own rules as I recall (modalist interpretations I believe), not to mention hell a eternal place of perpetual torture like the pagan folk. Things which are not said in and against the Scriptures. Making good bad and bad good.
All your statements are self-serving and unfit as doctrine. The logic behind your emotional notions are as inchoate as fog, suitable only for virtual swilling swine.
Just a little down from your faith.
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
The word states explicitly without exception God is One, God is Lord. The Word states explicitly without exception that our God is the God of Jesus. So no, your words are meaningless as the obey not the Scriptures. When the truth is not evident, dig a little deeper with the Good Book instead of the low hanging fruits of this english world.
Of course, you can have the last word. I believe it was acceded to you at the last OP. But if you choose not to exercise this to avoid foolish talk then let us continue to avoid conceit.
I think you were influenced by a false teacher --- in person, at a church, pastor, media or book.
The reason being The Bible was translated by those who believe in eternal punishment. Thus the natural reading of the text is for eternal punishment. Unless it is a bible produced by SDA or a Cult. The SDA version is known as Clear Word which was done by an individual, not by the SDA Church.
The reason being The Bible was translated by those who believe in eternal punishment. Thus the natural reading of the text is for eternal punishment. Unless it is a bible produced by SDA or a Cult. The SDA version is known as Clear Word which was done by an individual, not by the SDA Church.
Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp who was taught by John. Since, the church is a corporate body, If Irenaeus taught anything contrary to the Rule of Faith --- He would have been corrected. The line of the Apostles in not like play telephone like in Elementary School. In fact, things were handed down by Oral Tradition including the Scriptures because the OT was only in the Temple. One person would recite Scripture publicly, If he or she were make a mistake, then someone in the know would correct him right then and have him recite correctly. Thus if you can not trust the Church Fathers, then you can not trust the Bible you have today is correct. History Matters.
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The Reformers wanted to call the church back to a view of the relation between Scripture and tradition that was found in the early church. They believed that the Bible itself taught such a view. The Reformation doctrine of sola Scriptura, or the Reformation doctrine of the relation between Scripture and tradition, affirms that Scripture is to be understood as the sole source of divine revelation, the only inspired, infallible, final, and authoritative norm of faith and practice. Why? Because Scripture is “God-breathed” (2 Tim. 3:16). In other words, what Scripture says, God says. There is, therefore, a basic ontological difference between Scripture (God’s Word) and any creaturely words. Scripture is metaphysically unique. Scripture is to be interpreted in and by the church, and it is to be interpreted within the hermeneutical context of the rule of faith (Acts 15).
Among evangelicals, there is a common misunderstanding of sola Scriptura that views the Bible not only as the sole final authority, but as the sole authority altogether. In other words, the church, the ecumenical creeds, the confessions of faith, are largely dismissed even as secondary authorities. It is the “No creed but Christ” or “No creed but the Bible” attitude so prevalent in the church today. Of course, those who assert such slogans fail to realize that a statement such as “No creed but Christ” is itself a creed—a statement of what one believes.
Those who espouse this misunderstanding of the Reformation doctrine are often unaware that it is not the view of the early church and it is not the view of the magisterial Reformers. In fact, where one most often encounters this view historically is in the writings of various heretics (e.g., the Arians of the early church, the Socinians of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, etc.). This bad version of biblicism has been the source of innumerable false doctrines.
"
https://reformationbiblecollege.org/blog/the-five-solas
"
The Reformers wanted to call the church back to a view of the relation between Scripture and tradition that was found in the early church. They believed that the Bible itself taught such a view. The Reformation doctrine of sola Scriptura, or the Reformation doctrine of the relation between Scripture and tradition, affirms that Scripture is to be understood as the sole source of divine revelation, the only inspired, infallible, final, and authoritative norm of faith and practice. Why? Because Scripture is “God-breathed” (2 Tim. 3:16). In other words, what Scripture says, God says. There is, therefore, a basic ontological difference between Scripture (God’s Word) and any creaturely words. Scripture is metaphysically unique. Scripture is to be interpreted in and by the church, and it is to be interpreted within the hermeneutical context of the rule of faith (Acts 15).
Among evangelicals, there is a common misunderstanding of sola Scriptura that views the Bible not only as the sole final authority, but as the sole authority altogether. In other words, the church, the ecumenical creeds, the confessions of faith, are largely dismissed even as secondary authorities. It is the “No creed but Christ” or “No creed but the Bible” attitude so prevalent in the church today. Of course, those who assert such slogans fail to realize that a statement such as “No creed but Christ” is itself a creed—a statement of what one believes.
Those who espouse this misunderstanding of the Reformation doctrine are often unaware that it is not the view of the early church and it is not the view of the magisterial Reformers. In fact, where one most often encounters this view historically is in the writings of various heretics (e.g., the Arians of the early church, the Socinians of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, etc.). This bad version of biblicism has been the source of innumerable false doctrines.
"
https://reformationbiblecollege.org/blog/the-five-solas