TONGUES is a precious gift from God

[Oblio]

I'm more careful when it comes to judging God things I don't understand. I don't know why He does some of the things He does, but He does. And since He's God...

 

[PaulChristensen]

FYI those gifts are known as the didōmi from the Greek, "the equipping gifts" which are not part of the Charismata found in 1cor chapter 12. However, they are listed in 1cor chapter 12 they are a gift type of Gift from the Holy Spirit

Splitting hairs. In 1 Corinthians 12 it says that the gifts are for the common good. Also, in 1 Corinthians 14, it says that prophecy edifies the church. This is similar to Paul saying in Ephesians that the ministries also build up the body of Christ. Tongues build up the individual believer in his most holy faith and spiritually strengthens him so that he will be in a better place to contribute to the general building up of the church through his particular ministry.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I agree completely. There is ignorance on both sides as many have said. I have asked those who oppose the gifts of the Holy for today why are they needed and what do they do? None of them who oppose the gifts of the Holy Spirit have answered from the word of God.

It is because they can't, because there is nothing in the Word of God to say that tongues is not a genuine gift of the Spirit designed to build up a believer's spiritual strength and faith.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

"The gift of tongues was taught as a sign gift of the Holy Spirit and was often predicated on the day of Pentecost account. It is only in recent years that there has been a mishmash of other terms employed to escape the obvious flaw that became visible when the charismatic churches made tongue-speaking a mystical gift that went beyond the pentecostal account. You must know that pastor."

instead of opinions and assertion as the poster called me a "Pastor" which I do not hold to that office or position, however, I am a minister of the Gospel called by God and recognized by the local fellowship and a member of a pentacostel denomination.

But that is all not important.

What is important is what the word of God actually states on this subject and WHO SAID IT.

Start from the Top.

IN the Old Testament

God said:

" I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh". Joel 2:28 Peter quoted this in Acts 2:17

The Lord Jesus said :

John 14:17

“the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.


Mark 16:14-18

And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Acts 1:8

“But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

The problem with the assertion that "the Holy Spirit and was often predicated on the day of Pentecost account." Is not what Pentacostel teaches. Tongues are one gift of the Holy Spirit which many are listed in 1cor chapter 12.

First off The Holy Spirit has been empowering and coming upon men throughout the Old Testament well before the day of Pentacost.
Those recorded as to have the Spirit of the Lord Come upon them in the Old Testament:

Abraham
Issac
Jacob
Joseph
Moses
Joshua
the Judges
The Prophets
The Kings
The Priest

What did they do that was supernatural?

• They prophesied
• raised the dead
• healed
• controlled the weather
• call down fire
• received superhuman strength
• foretold and forth tell by the Spirit of God
• Led to write scriptures.

The Holy Spirit came upon them

IN the New Testament Jesus who is the final authority said in the Gospel of John the Holy Spirit will be in you and come upon you. chapter 14


If you think the Disciples were saved on the day of pentacost You have a greater issue than you even know.

In John chapter 20:22

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
Some here like to speak about my grammar yet we see here in the Verse is past-tense.

Jesus Breathed and said Receive the Holy Spirit. I believe They did receive as Jesus said for them to do.

So, if they received the Holy Spirit here, why were they told to go and wait until they receive power from on high?

That is because they had the Holy Spirit in them, but the Holy Spirit was not yet Given to come upon them, Because Jesus was still with them.

Jesus said IT IS NECESSARY that I go, if I do not go HE the Comforter will not come! John 16:7

Jesus then said HIS last words prior to the ascension


Acts 1:8

“But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Wait, what else did they need? John 20:22 said Jesus breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit?

what other thing could they possibly need if they already had the Holy Spirit like 40 days ago from this day here in Acts chapter 1?

I would love for you to tell me what is the Gifts of the Holy Spirit for, and the empowering of the Holy Spirit for, and what does it do?

I would be very impressed if you knew that.

If you are not an ordained pastor then so be it. Nevertheless you call yourself a Minister and assert that your calling is recognised. So whether you are a Pastor or another minister in name or nature - I can hardly see where the fault lies.

As to what @Aidan1 said which you responded to - he spoke about an historical fact of Pentecostalism and set his comment into that frame of reference by dating his origination to 1901 - in rather the same way I followed that meaning to comment on your response to him and qualified my comment by referencing the predicative meaning of the day of Pentecost.

It must be self evident that what was being said was not predicated on a biblical claim but rather a claim to the claim of the pentecostal movement itself. Is is not possible to recognise your own misleading claims when you choose to deflect what someone has said and instead give them either a rebuke or else in my case a lecture in theology?

@Aidan1 is free to make his own case regardless to his clear cessationist position. When he does he should not be brought in disrepute inferentially or even stated clearly. It is simply the wrong way Tod discuss anything at all. I have read his posts and I am certain he knows that I am not a cessationist and yet we are not in contention.

So when you tell me that you would love for me to tell you what the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for - when you ground your meaning in Scripture and it is self evident from the Scripture that the apostles were in need of power and not life - then I am hardly likely to disagree. But the brother wasn't making that point which you felt it necessary to rebuke - he was simply stating an historical fact that the pentecostal movement has utilised the term Baptism of the Holy Spirit to signal its secondary blessing criteria and the gifts of the Holy Spirit - especially the sign gifts to represent its evidence. To say that is NOT to agree with it - it is either a truth or else a lie. The Baptism of the Holy Sprit with the sight gift of tongues was expressly a Pentecostal Church claim and it was held to publicly and openly until very recently.

 

[ResidentAlien]

After reading through the thread I found it interesting that those who oppose the modern use of the the gift of tongues. . .

What is the "modern use of the gift of tongues?" Where did it start? Who started it? What do we know about these people? Why should we trust them? What other things did they believe and teach? What fruit did their lives bear?

 

[PaulChristensen]

I used to think that people who fell over while being prayed for had some deep-seated psychological need for attention. I found it extremely embarrassing!
One day I walked into a church I knew nothing about. When it came time for prayer, I made sure I was last in line. Only in this church, they didn't line up single file, but side by side. Which put me on one end. Wouldn't you know it, I was the first person to get prayed for.
The guy stood in front of me, and without a word, lightly touched my shirt with his finger. I got knocked over! I was so embarrassed. I tried to get up but it was like I was a fly on flypaper! God got me good that day! Lol

It just shows that the Holy Spirit works in ways we cannot fathom to show that He is present and does things for a particular reason, even if it is just to make us a fool for Christ! Pride is a killer, and when the Holy Spirit does something to wreck it, He is doing us a favour!

One event that showed me that the Holy Spirit does unusual things for reasons He only knows, is when I was praying for people at an altar call, and I put my hand on a lady's shoulder and suddenly she wasn't there! I looked down and saw that she had fallen to the floor. The hilarious thing about it was that I didn't believe in people falling in the Spirit and was basically opposed to it at the time! I think that the Holy Spirit has a sense of humour, and does things to put a spanner in our theology at times!

 

[PaulChristensen]

What is the "modern use of the gift of tongues?" Where did it start? Who started it? What do we know about these people? Why should we trust them? What other things did they believe and teach? What fruit did their lives bear?

Google is a great resource to find things out. It gives all the answers you are looking for.

 

[CS1]

Splitting hairs. In 1 Corinthians 12 it says that the gifts are for the common good. Also, in 1 Corinthians 14, it says that prophecy edifies the church. This is similar to Paul saying in Ephesians that the ministries also build up the body of Christ. Tongues build up the individual believer in his most holy faith and spiritually strengthens him so that he will be in a better place to contribute to the general building up of the church through his particular ministry.

There is one prominent reason for the gifts of the Holy Spirit which Jesus is the one who said.

in Acts 1:8 "You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit comes upon you and you shall be my witnesses"

Jesus spoke these last words before being taken up. Why was the power for? to be a witness. What were they witnessing about The Lord Jesus Christ who was not Dead but alive. The empowering confirmed their witness of Christ as not being dead HE was and is alive.

This is why the gifts of the Holy Spirit have not ceased. Acts chapter 4:33 says:


33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

The Holy Spirit confirmed the word of God with signs and wonders. That has not stopped because we have a completed Bible.

 

[Cyberm]

Maybe there should be a forum for Christians who like arguing. Then threads like this would continue to be a blessing.
Instead of a battle ground!

This is a Christian site, with Christian forums, with Christian threads, and this whole site is built upon like minded people. Christians are one of the most argumentative people ever, because each and everyone of them believe so passionately that what they believe about God is the right thing and the ONLY right thing. Even if there was a forum for arguing (which there never will be because of the message it will portray. Instead people will simply argue in secret) these people would still argue. It’s in their nature, and they can never admit when they’re wrong. Not to say I’m perfect I don’t want it to seem like I am saying that or that I think that. Im just tried of the constant jibber jabber.

 

[CS1]

This is a Christian site, with Christian forums, with Christian threads, and this whole site is built upon like minded people. Christians are one of the most argumentative people ever, because each and everyone of them believe so passionately that what they believe about God is the right thing and the ONLY right thing. Even if there was a forum for arguing (which there never will be because of the message it will portray. Instead people will simply argue in secret) these people would still argue. It’s in their nature, and they can never admit when they’re wrong. Not to say I’m perfect I don’t want it to seem like I am saying that or that I think that. Im just tried of the constant jibber jabber.

I disagree there are only a few who are argumentative and rude.

 

[Cyberm]

I disagree there are only a few who are argumentative and rude.

That is true, I don’t really think I said anything super offensive but I think that I should take the post down. What I said has kind of been a build up from argumentative Christian’s I’ve meet in the past (although there are some argumentative ones here too) and that was hypocritical of me to say because Im pretty much an advocate of not letting past experiences make you generalize and say things like I said. I didn’t really generalize, but you know what I mean.

 

[Cyberm]

I disagree there are only a few who are argumentative and rude.

But I stand on what I said when I say Christian’s are one of the most argumentative people out there. Not to say if you’re a Christian you’re automatically argumentative, just that as a whole we can be very argumentative

 

[Cyberm]

I disagree there are only a few who are argumentative and rude.

Whelp, just found out after 5 minutes you can’t delete a post lol. That’s ok, I’ll be more careful.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Whelp, just found out after 5 minutes you can’t delete a post lol. That’s ok, I’ll be more careful.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[CS1]

Whelp, just found out after 5 minutes you can’t delete a post lol. That’s ok, I’ll be more careful.

you were honest in your opinion. I do say this often and I don't see many who do , I can be wrong

 

[PaulChristensen]

But I stand on what I said when I say Christian’s are one of the most argumentative people out there. Not to say if you’re a Christian you’re automatically argumentative, just that as a whole we can be very argumentative

I think there is a difference between fair debate and argumentation. It is the difference between kicking the ball and kicking the player. The clue for argumentative posts is the use of "you" comments where attempts to discredit the person rather than debating the issues.

I have had very stimulating and respectful debates with brothers in Christ who are Cessationist and totally opposed to tongues in today's churches. We have always ended in stalemate, but each of us has given us a run for our respective monies. But we have remained brothers in Christ who worship and love the same Lord.

Actually , these forums would be boring if we all agreed with one another. My comment for thin-skinned members, if they can't stand the heat, keep out of the kitchen!

 

[TheLearner]

there is no way I am keeping up. Is there an executive summary somewhere?

 

[Cyberm]

I think there is a difference between fair debate and argumentation. It is the difference between kicking the ball and kicking the player. The clue for argumentative posts is the use of "you" comments where attempts to discredit the person rather than debating the issues.

I have had very stimulating and respectful debates with brothers in Christ who are Cessationist and totally opposed to tongues in today's churches. We have always ended in stalemate, but each of us has given us a run for our respective monies. But we have remained brothers in Christ who worship and love the same Lord.

Actually , these forums would be boring if we all agreed with one another. My comment for thin-skinned members, if they can't stand the heat, keep out of the kitchen!

Yes I agree with you, I was talking about times where one party would take jabs at another. That isn’t “heat”. If you’re always throwing knifes, a kitchen is the last place you should be. You should be in a padded room.

 

[Oblio]

I have no problem with respect. Tongues is a precious thing to me and I do not appreciate it being wrote off as being demonic.
But then again, perhaps I'm being careless with my pearls.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Google is a great resource to find things out. It gives all the answers you are looking for.

I already know the answers; I'm just wondering if you know. You say we should give tongue-talkers the benefit of the doubt; but what do you actually know about the origins of the modern tongue movement? I can tell you with 100% certainty that it wasn't a spontaneous move of the Spirit.