Doctrine of Unconditional Election

justpassinthrough · Jan 19, 2022

As we can all see the scripture I gave and what it so plainly teaches…

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

You have been banned from some Forums for teaching this false doctrine.

Please repent.

JPT

FreeGrace2 · Jan 19, 2022

brightfame52 said:
I dont know what you talking about but it sounds ridiculous.

Nehemiah6 said:

Let's see how bf52 responds to 1 Tim 2:3-6
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Probably he'll say "all" really means "all kinds of". Just watch.

rogerg · Jan 19, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

He doesn't offer salvation to everyone. If He did, and then some aren't saved, that would mean those who were, knew something, or did something, the others didn't or couldn't. That would mean they had worked for their salvation in some way, which is not possible to do and against the Gospel. You do know that not everyone will become saved, don't you? For those who aren't and are of your belief system, were they doomed to damnation?

rogerg · Jan 19, 2022

justpassinthrough said:

I know your reply was intended for brightfam52, but I just want to respond to it.

He is propitiation for the world to come, not this current world. This world is to be destroyed.

As far as anyone being banned because of disagreement with your theology, the Bible tells us this:

[Luk 6:22 KJV] 22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you [from their company], and shall reproach [you], and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

So, it is actually a blessing from God in being chosen worthy to be used of Him, should that happen.

You can never stop the true Gospel.

brightfame52 · Jan 20, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

You repeating yourself. Calling scripture truth calvinism is scoffing Gods word.

brightfame52 · Jan 20, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said:
If this is true, then you should able to show verses that say it.

Can you?

By that, I mean GIVE the verses that do say it.

Interesting non responsive comment.

When others ask me for verses, I don't punt. I just give them again.

The fact that you have punted says everything. Thanks for the view.

btw, for context, what I asked for was a verse or verses that specifically teach that Christ ONLY died for some, regardless of how they are described.

What the Bible DOES teach is that Jesus Christ died for all. And, no, there is no other descriptive, such as "all the elect" or "all the frozen chosen" or etc.

Let's do this: pick out the one verse that you believe is the most clear about Christ's death being selective for just a few, or not for everyone.

And then I'll discuss it with you. Fair enough?

I have given plenty of verses, you only scoff them and deny them and call them calvinism.

brightfame52 · Jan 20, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

Again this sounds foolish. This thread is about Gods unconditional election ! Do you deny it ?

brightfame52 · Jan 20, 2022

justpassinthrough said:

As we can all see the scripture I gave and what it so plainly teaches…

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

You have been banned from some Forums for teaching this false doctrine.

Please repent.

JPT

Again Christs blood was shed only for His elect, chosen from among the whole world.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 20, 2022

rogerg said:

Let's see what the Bible says about salvation, and who it is for.

New Living Translation
For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.
English Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Berean Study Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone.
Berean Literal Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
King James Bible
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
New King James Version
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
New American Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

There are many more translations saying the very same thing.

Doesn't mean that at all. It means those who are saved responded to the simple gospel message.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

You need to leave your calvinistic leanings. Responding to the gospel is NOT A WORK in ANY SENSE.

Rom 4-
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Eph 2-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

These 2 passages clearly show that salvation is by grace and NOT works. Reception of a gift cannot be called a work.

Because some REFUSE to believe.

John 5:40 - yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
Acts 14:2 - But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.

These verses PROVE that man has a free will. And they express that will by making a choice; they REFUSE to believe.

This means that believing is a choice. Some who hear the gospel believe and many who hear don't.

This is a great question!! This is what the Bible says about who will be condemned.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

This shows that all who "have not believed" will be condemned.

So, only those who "have not believed" will be doomed to damnation. All by themselves. Because believing is a choice.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 20, 2022

brightfame52 said:

No, you keep repeating yourself. You think calvinism is Scripture truth, but it isn't.

I asked if you wanted to see TULIP refuted.

T - total depravity. Calvinism is only half right. Man cannot save himself. Period. God saves. However, calvinism goes WAY TOO FAR by adding that man can't believe unless God regenerates him so he can believe. But this isn't found anywhere in Scripture. There are verses that plainly say that men "refused to believe", which shows believing is a choice that man makes. So anyone CAN believe, unlike the calvinistic doctrine of total depravity.

U - unconditional election. 2 problems here. First, election is NOT to salvation, as there are NO verses that say this. In fact, in EVERY verse that shows or lists the purpose of election, it is for SERVICE, not salvation. 1 Cor 1:27,28 and 1 Pet 1:1,2 prove this. Second, even it election were to salvation, it is NOT "unconditional" by any means. There IS a condition for salvation. Faith in Christ.

L - limited atonement. There are many verses that plainly say that Christ died for all. There is NO justification for trying to twist "all" into something else, like "all kinds of..." or "all the elect" etc.

I - irresistible grace. Grace is obviously resisted. God forces no one to believe. Acts 7:51 shows that men resist the Holy Spirit, whose mministry is evangelism, among other things.

P - perseverance of the saints. The Bible gives a number of examples of believers who fell into sin. And we have examples today. For example, Billy Graham was mentored by Charles Templeton, and they toured Europe in 1947 giving crusades.

Now, IF the P stands for preservation of the saints, which is eternal security, that is correct.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 20, 2022

brightfame52 said:

I showed that the verses you have given don't teach truth, but calvinism. See my previous post which refutes TULIP.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 20, 2022

brightfame52 said:

Can you prove from the Bible that election is to salvation? Or that salvation is unconditional, meaning that man does NOTHING to be saved?

FreeGrace2 · Jan 20, 2022

brightfame52 said:

How come you have NEVER proven this statement? If it were true, there would be at least one verse that plainly says so.

But there isn't. In fact, there are a number of verses that specifically say He died for all or everyone.

studentoftheword · Jan 20, 2022

brightfame52 ----you said in your OP -----Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation -----

That is Flase Doctrine ------All Covenants are Conditional ------read them---- it says---- IF YOU---- DO THIS YOU WILL BE SAVEd ----IF YOU OBEY MY COMMANDS YOU WILL BE BLESSED ---the IF YOU is a Condition and It gives US CHOICE --to Accept or Reject God's Offer -------

What the unconditional election is about is predestination and -----this is what the scripture says -----it says us---just not certain people -----He Foreknew us all ---the election was for all to come to Him ----Many use Romans

Ephesians 1:5
Context
Spiritual Blessings
…4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love
5 predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,

6 to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.

Romans 8:29

Context
God Works In All Things
28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.

29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

The Elect is anyone Now who decides to allow God to open their heart to receive the Message of faith and who Accept and Receive Jeus as their Lord and saviour -----

Salvation comes this way ----NOTICE VERSE 9 ---IF YOU CONFESS and IF YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART ----CONDITION APPLIED ----only IF YOU are you saved ------Salvation is not just for certain people ---God knows who's hearts can be drawn to him -----and who hearts remain hardened to His Plea to Repent ---

Romans 10

Context
The Word Brings Salvation
…8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:

9that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

brightfame52 · Jan 20, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

No, you keep repeating yourself. You think calvinism is Scripture truth, but it isn't.

I asked if you wanted to see TULIP refuted.

T - total depravity. Calvinism is only half right. Man cannot save himself. Period. God saves. However, calvinism goes WAY TOO FAR by adding that man can't believe unless God regenerates him so he can believe. But this isn't found anywhere in Scripture. There are verses that plainly say that men "refused to believe", which shows believing is a choice that man makes. So anyone CAN believe, unlike the calvinistic doctrine of total depravity.

U - unconditional election. 2 problems here. First, election is NOT to salvation, as there are NO verses that say this. In fact, in EVERY verse that shows or lists the purpose of election, it is for SERVICE, not salvation. 1 Cor 1:27,28 and 1 Pet 1:1,2 prove this. Second, even it election were to salvation, it is NOT "unconditional" by any means. There IS a condition for salvation. Faith in Christ.

L - limited atonement. There are many verses that plainly say that Christ died for all. There is NO justification for trying to twist "all" into something else, like "all kinds of..." or "all the elect" etc.

I - irresistible grace. Grace is obviously resisted. God forces no one to believe. Acts 7:51 shows that men resist the Holy Spirit, whose mministry is evangelism, among other things.

P - perseverance of the saints. The Bible gives a number of examples of believers who fell into sin. And we have examples today. For example, Billy Graham was mentored by Charles Templeton, and they toured Europe in 1947 giving crusades.

Now, IF the P stands for preservation of the saints, which is eternal security, that is correct.

The scripture teaches unconditional election but you flip it off and scoff saying its not Gods Word but calvinism, a man, thats a low blow to the truth friend.

brightfame52 · Jan 20, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

See how you scoff and call truth tulip in a degrading way.

brightfame52 · Jan 20, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

You call scripture truth calvinism and scoff at it,

brightfame52 · Jan 20, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

You scoff and call scripture testimony calvinsm, call it a mans teaching.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 20, 2022

brightfame52 said:

Why don't you quit repeating yourself and just listen to the evidence?

Did you read my post on TULIP? Or were you afraid to?

If your claim about were true, you would have a verse that says so. But all you do is repeat your opinion. No Scripture at all.

I, otoh, have given you verses that clearly tell us the purpose of election.

1 Cor 1-
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Red words are what God has CHOSEN. Blue words are the purpose for which God CHOSE them. Nothing about salvation.

1 Peter 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Again, the red words indicate who is CHOSEN. Blue words indicate the purpose of being CHOSEN.

Now, if CAN quote a verse that shows election is to salvation, please quote it.

However, if you CANNOT quote a verse that shows election is to salvation, please QUIT saying it.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 20, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
I showed that the verses you have given don't teach truth, but calvinism. See my previous post which refutes TULIP.

brightfame52 said:

The problem here, bf52, is that you just don't like what I post.

When will you use the truth against me and refute my explanations of TULIP with Scripture?

The reason is clear: there aren't any verses that will refute my explanations, that's why.

All you've been giving are your opinions. Which is fine, but you certainly can't convince anyone by opinions. You need evidence.

I have provided that evidence but you resist and reject it.

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